Curse

Red Locust · Jul 23, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I'm sure anyone observing GvG's has noticed the obvious lack of creativity when it comes to ritualists and assassins. There just isn't any diversity, as soon as you see a ritualist or assassin, you pretty much know what his entire bar will look like and what he'll be doing, where he'll be doing it and how he'll be doing it.

Looking at the 6 original classes, they all offer different viable skill setups for different builds, but the 2 new factions classes just don't have that. The ritualist is almost exclusively ritual lord + defensive spirits, while the assassin is usually golden phoenix - ox - spider, or leaping mantis - jungle strike, usually with twisting fangs, dark escape and some other common skills tacked on the end.

Now there's probably some kind of channeling ritualist that works well as a spiker, and there's a slim chance that there's some non-gimicky assassin build that is as capable as the AoD assassin with the abovementioned skillbar, but with chapter 3 around the corner and nothing promising having shown up yet, it's starting to look bad. So are the skills for these two classes balanced poorly or are we just too bloody slow to figure out good combinations?

Poison Ivy · Jul 23, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

When the 6 origrinal professions were released, it took months to think up new builds and uses for them, give it some time...

(Or Assassins might be as well named AoD and Ritualists be named Spirit Supports)

kvndoom · Jul 23, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

If Ritual Lord never gets nerfed, the Rit will be stuck with one superlative build (unless NF introduces new skills). Shameful, because the character has so much potential. Offensively I wouldn't rely on one, because much like smiting the channeling recharges are too long for it to really dominate. I can't even see any decent Rit spikes being possible with the current skillset.

But other uses are overlooked. You could drop a few spirits in the backline and use Mend to remove up to 3 conditions every 3 seconds as well as provide small heals, which makes your Monk's life much easier. My arena Rit build removes hexes and conditions faster than any Monk ever could, and when I get paired with a decent Monk our backline becomes a force.

Assassins may get abandoned in favor of Dervishes, simply because most people really wanted a new tank (don't ask me why), and Assasins can't tank. Apparently the Dervish is made to be in the frontline, so we'll see. If so, we may see both of chapter 2's classes bastardized.

suiraCLAW · Jul 23, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

If Ritual Lord never gets nerfed, the Rit will be stuck with one superlative build

If ritual lord gets nerfed, almost nobody would play the class anymore...

IMO: the only solution here is to buff all skills that are completely useless (even if that means that they become slightly overpowerd).

Zui · Jul 23, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

If ritual lord gets nerfed, almost nobody would play the class anymore...

IMO: the only solution here is to buff all skills that are completely useless (even if that means that they become slightly overpowerd).

IMHO, any charactar that can force a match into VoD simply by it being in a build is already overpowered =/

Souless · Jul 23, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I think that a ritualists channeling/restoration magic could get buffed and ritual lord be nerfed somehow, make it an option to be an alternate healer or even a valueable mid-line character would be nice.

As for assassain, I think the elites need to be buffed to make them viable over AoD. It'd also be nice to see them in a non- npc ganking roll, because they have the potential to really contribute to spikes.

Byron · Jul 23, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Ritual lord doesn't need a nerf - the spirits simply have too long a range, which places the caster out of harm's way. A ritualist would be very weak, IMHO, if it had to be in the same range as a monk. This range lets rits spam spirits to their heart's content without any pressure or interrupts to worry about. Vageuly reminiscent of old school OoP/OoV/Heal Party necros, who would sit at map range and spam orders/heal party. Except, rits obviously have much more defensive power.

Tainek · Jul 23, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

IMHO, any charactar that can force a match into VoD simply by it being in a build is already overpowered =/

A ritualist doesnt always force VoD, Splitting is a good means of mitigating its effects

Vindexus · Jul 23, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I personally don't think we've been given enough time with the two new professions for people to find all the new combos. Look how long it took for Gale warriors to catch on; and those were really good.

The Rit Lord spamming Rit is imbalanced in my opinion. The range of the spirits is too large.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

A ritualist doesnt always force VoD, Splitting is a good means of mitigating its effects

He obviously didn't mean to be taken literally. And when you split you draw out the match by quite a bit. Normally to VoD even.

cookiemonkie · Jul 23, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I personally don't think we've been given enough time with the two new professions for people to find all the new combos. Look how long it took for Gale warriors to catch on; and those were really good.

The Rit Lord spamming Rit is imbalanced in my opinion. The range of the spirits is too large.

He obviously didn't mean to be taken literally. And when you split you draw out the match by quite a bit. Normally to VoD even.

Bad comparison, Gale warriors have been around since WM was beating up on everyone else with a team of 8 of them...prior to the exhaustion nerf and energy nerf, gale warriors have been around since guild wars was released.

shardfenix · Jul 23, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Ritual lord doesn't need a nerf - the spirits simply have too long a range

I half-agree with you. The range on rit spirits is rediculous. Ranger spirits are fine because they affect everybody, but rit spirits only affect allies, and should only work in aggro range.
However, ritual lord needs a nerf. Here's why:

Frozen Soil
energy: 5, cast time: 5, recharge: 30...nah, 4
For 58 seconds, creatures cannot be resurrected unless the rit that used this skill eats it and places another one before opponents realize it's down.

Here's another reason why rit lord is broken.
Ritual Lord
For 30 seconds, every time you remake a spirit, your necro gains (infinite...infinite) energy to heal.

The reason why we aren't seeing any diverse builds is simple.

There is one assassin build that WTFpwns every other assassin build.
There is one rit build that WTFpwns every other rit build

Because arenanet either has no clue what balanced skills are, or they want people to play those builds and WTFpwn everybody else.
In the past week, my guild has fought 1 guild of players who do not use broken builds. The amount of overpowered BS in PvP is incredible.

Order of Nightfall...ostasy (Spell)
5e, 3/4 cast, 5 recharge
Order of Nightfallostasy deals (1 bazillion...1 gajillion) damage to each opponent within world map range of the caster. For each point of damage done, each of those foes loses one enchantment.

Phades · Jul 23, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

IMHO, any charactar that can force a match into VoD simply by it being in a build is already overpowered =/

Just because it goes into VoD, doesnt mean the team with the ritualist always wins. This style of complaint is almost the same as complaining that monks can heal other team mates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I personally don't think we've been given enough time with the two new professions for people to find all the new combos. Look how long it took for Gale warriors to catch on; and those were really good.

I can remeber gale warriors with various weapon setups last year around this time. Its hard to compare against today, because there was no obs mode then. The difference is that, the people with talent for such things figure it out faster. However, when refering to "optimal" builds, the aforementioned ritualist and assassin are almost too optimal given the skill sets. This is what causes the lack of diversity. The problem for each is a little different, as the assassin alternatives just suck and the ritualist alternatives could be done better by other professions in many instances. The ritualist instance is similar to trying to be a "pure damage" elementalist build being effective in anything other than a gimmic spike build.

Vindexus · Jul 23, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

Bad comparison, Gale warriors have been around since WM was beating up on everyone else with a team of 8 of them...prior to the exhaustion nerf and energy nerf, gale warriors have been around since guild wars was released.

That's just simply untrue.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 23, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Just because it goes into VoD, doesnt mean the team with the ritualist always wins. This style of complaint is almost the same as complaining that monks can heal other team mates.

In a ladder season, matches that force the clearly superior team into VoD suck. The ladder isn't about just winning games, but winning games as quickly as possible. If half of the games you play are forced into a boring 30-minute turtling assault because the other team brought a Rit, your effectiveness on the ladder is drastically reduced.

Blame the Monks · Jul 23, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

That's just simply untrue.

The Prophecies prima guide suggests a gale/shock w/e. I have screens from july of me running a gale warrior, and its not like I invented the build.

JR · Jul 23, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

The Prophecies prima guide suggests a gale/shock w/e. I have screens from july of me running a gale warrior, and its not like I invented the build.

I think Vindexus was thinking more about the popularization of Gale Warriors, as in from what point in time they could be considered a somewhat mainstream build.

Phades · Jul 23, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In a ladder season, matches that force the clearly superior team into VoD suck. The ladder isn't about just winning games, but winning games as quickly as possible. If half of the games you play are forced into a boring 30-minute turtling assault because the other team brought a Rit, your effectiveness on the ladder is drastically reduced.

That sounds more like a ladder design issue opposed to a class balance problem. ANET could easily just hold more tournaments and give rank bonuses as a byproduct of the results, instead of only relying on the current system and forcing the rapid farming that currently exists.

Dzan · Jul 24, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

These two classes weren't meant to be equals in versatility to the core classes. They were intended to be niche classes that people would use in when their niche skills were wanted. They made it fairly clear from when they announced Factions that the game is always going to center around the core classes and the new ones in each expansion will always occupy the periphery. It's not a design flaw, it was anet's goal from the beginning.

Red Locust · Jul 24, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

These two classes weren't meant to be equals in versatility to the core classes. They were intended to be niche classes that people would use in when their niche skills were wanted. They made it fairly clear from when they announced Factions that the game is always going to center around the core classes and the new ones in each expansion will always occupy the periphery. It's not a design flaw, it was anet's goal from the beginning.

Nobody's arguing that. What I'm talking about is the fact that out of 75 or so assassin/rit skills, a very small number of them are actually being used, and all the builds are virtually identical to each other (in terms of GvG). When ANet said the new classes will be niche classes, I assume they meant assassins/rits will only be good in specific builds and for specific purposes, not that they would create 10 good skills and 65 useless skills.

Rieselle · Jul 24, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Nobody's arguing that. What I'm talking about is the fact that out of 75 or so assassin/rit skills, a very small number of them are actually being used, and all the builds are virtually identical to each other (in terms of GvG). When ANet said the new classes will be niche classes, I assume they meant assassins/rits will only be good in specific builds and for specific purposes, not that they would create 10 good skills and 65 useless skills.

Elems are kinda in the same boat :/