Curse

Mr Urthadar · Jul 20, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Hi all! I think I have a reasonable understanding of GvG mechanics. But there is one situation that vexes me. What to do once the other team is `hemmed-in'.

Heres the scenario we were in last night:
* Fighting on the Isle of Meditation.
* Significant amount of DP applied - everyone but the flagger has DP.
* All their henchies, excluding the archers around the GL, have been killed.
* My team is standing at the foot of the stairs to their GL, out of archer range.

Here is a snapshot of the build:
2 hammer warriors
1 shock-axe
1 Emo - flashbot/deepfreeze/draw condis.
1 mes - expel hexes / degen
2 monks (1 boon / 1 blessed light)
1 Emo flagger.

The enemy flagger (crip-shot) has snuck out and has our flagger pinned in the hall, so one of the hammer warriors runs back to assist. This leaves two warriors to attempt our assault.

So the assault unfolds like this -
1) Warriors wand for adrenaline.
2) Once full of adrenaline emo deep-freezes the cluster around the GL.
3) Warriors get prot spirit.
4) We charge in after an archer.

This is where things get screwy, and I can not recall all the details... Before I make it up the stairs, I'm crippled, poisoned and I think bleeding. Their warriors are hammering on me, and I can't get past the body block. The spike on me is pretty hard.

After failed attempts to take out any of their NPCs around the GL -- we try to determine what to do next. Should we ease back to the flag-stand and wait for them? Or should we contain them in their hall, by camping right outside of their GL area?

We choose to wait at the flag-stand, which turns out to be the right choice. They come out, and attempt to cap the stand. We apply one more round of DP. In the end, we won at VoD, but it was sloppy and clumsy at the end (tangent - that's really besides the point).

So, my question is, what should I do if we can't `crack-the-egg' when they're hemmed in around the GL? I hate waiting 10 minutes until VoD, because I feel that I'm doing "nothing". Yes, I understand that I'm maintaining morale - but it's so boring

.

What are good tactics for `cracking-the-egg'?

Thanks all,
ju

Ensign · Jul 20, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

...don't try and crack the boat when you're down two guys?

If the other team has a heavy defense (a ritualist build basically) you aren't going to crack the boat before VoD. Just clear out everything but the boat and wait, if they're any good they'll know VoD is going to own them and they'll force action. If they just turtle though, well, hope you have a good book. =/

Peace,
-CxE

pork soldier · Jul 20, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Urthadar

So, my question is, what should I do if we can't `crack-the-egg' when they're hemmed in around the GL? I hate waiting 10 minutes until VoD, because I feel that I'm doing "nothing". Yes, I understand that I'm maintaining morale - but it's so boring

.

What are good tactics for `cracking-the-egg'?

Thanks all,
ju

You could always yo-yo them and try to separate the team a bit - it's easier to take down a monk if they're out of range of the other.

If you're going to wait for VoD make sure you have the cata repaired and someone is ready to fire it - you can wipe both bodyguards and most of the archers in one hit if your timing is good.

Mr Urthadar · Jul 20, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

...don't try and crack the boat when you're down two guys?

If the other team has a heavy defense (a ritualist build basically) you aren't going to crack the boat before VoD. Just clear out everything but the boat and wait, if they're any good they'll know VoD is going to own them and they'll force action. If they just turtle though, well, hope you have a good book. =/

Peace,
-CxE

Maybe this is a stupid question - but does it matter where you wait? I know that if we're waiting for VoD, that we put one on the trebuchet and the rest of us hang out by the flag-stand, or somewhere similar, watching for a gank-squad.

But this map (Isle of Meditation) didn't have a trebuchet. Should you keep them `stuck' in their hall or give them some room to come out? To me, the safest bet seems to be to wait them out by the flat stand. I suppose I'll bring a book - any recommendations

.

Thanks all,
ju

JR · Jul 20, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Urthadar

Maybe this is a stupid question - but does it matter where you wait? I know that if we're waiting for VoD, that we put one on the trebuchet and the rest of us hang out by the flag-stand, or somewhere similar, watching for a gank-squad.

But this map (Isle of Meditation) didn't have a trebuchet. Should you keep them `stuck' in their hall or give them some room to come out? To me, the safest bet seems to be to wait them out by the flat stand. I suppose I'll bring a book - any recommendations

.

Thanks all,
ju

To use the example of Warriors Isle:

If you have them pushed back way into their Guild Lord area, then stay just outside it and pin them there while you kill every NPC you can. Something like an Illusion Mesmer or Cripshot is good at killing the outer GL area archers with ninja-degen whilst the rest of your team distracts. When VoD rolls around pull back out of the BACK entrance to the the flag stand. This allows you to watch the back way for them trying to sneak a repair kit out, or someone to fire the catapult should it already be repaired. Pull back fast enough so you get the flag stand as your NPCs do, to save them getting any kills on them, but slow enough so you can protect the cata.

On non-catapult maps just clear out their base as much as you can and then hang out by the stand, keeping a close eye on your base.

Divineshadows · Jul 20, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

On non-catapult maps just clear out their base as much as you can and then hang out by the stand, keeping a close eye on your base.

On Frozen Isle, it seems a more common play to keep your opponent boxed in with their NPCs at their base rather than to remain at the flagstand. This way you can easily see if they try to send any gank squads to your base which is difficult to see from the flagstand on this map.

JR · Jul 20, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

On Frozen Isle, it seems a more common play to keep your opponent boxed in with their NPCs at their base rather than to remain at the flagstand. This way you can easily see if they try to send any gank squads to your base which is difficult to see from the flagstand on this map.

Well the same principle applies; being in a position to keep them off the flag stand, and watching your base. Although yeah, it may be more advantagous to stay further up and keep an eye on them on this map.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 21, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Most builds I've played in can't effectively pressure the enemy team when they're sitting inside their bodyguard area. If you're a spike team you can probably still get kills, and an AoE-heavy team has got a shot, but otherwise you can forget actually forcing deaths in bodyguard range. You probably have 20-30s in range of the bodyguards before your monks run dry, so use them wisely and only aggro if you're sure you can force a kill.

Usually, I find the best way to force kills on a turtling opponent is to play somewhat defensively, keeping your squishies out of archer range and your warriors well away from the bodyguards. Most teams will start sending warriors out to spike your squishes - let them force you back more and more gradually, then snare one of their monks and zerg rush him with all the offense you have. If you can force a kill on a monk shortly after the res time and interrupt their hard res you should be able to break the turtle. One monk can't hold up to the pressure of an entire team, and you'll kill the bodyguards before the other one gets back up.

For VoD, your play will obviously depend on the map. On catapult maps you want to catapult their NPCs, and bodyblock to ensure that they don't do the same to you. In thiefless maps I often find it a good strategy to split 4-4 and leave one group at each entrance to the enemy base. When VoD hits have your team at the front gate fall back to the flagstand to meet the NPCs This gives them three options:

-Move their full force out with their NPCs and leave their guild lord undefended against 4 members of your team.

-Stay with their guild lord and give up their bodyguards and remaining NPC advantage, allowing you to easily break them in the base.

-Split 4-4 themselves. You should have a morale advantage, and the team they send out to the flagstand should get annihilated by the massive NPC pressure, while your team has a lot less to worry about. Their base team also has to hold up against your base team without sigs, and if their monk drops you'll probably win the game.

The one thing that ties these options together is that they all suck for the other team.

Finally, remember in any turtling situation that every death on your team means 16% DP regained by the other team. You've basically won at that point, so don't take reckless risks or try too hard to force kills without watching your monk's energy.

Patrograd · Jul 26, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Finally, remember in any turtling situation that every death on your team means 16% DP regained by the other team. You've basically won at that point, so don't take reckless risks or try too hard to force kills without watching your monk's energy.

Exactly, patience is FTW

if they are turtled up like this, then as long as you dont make any silly mistakes you have won

Some general tips if you have all 8 turtled up:

Archers dont appear on enemy party windows, killing those archers around the GL area is relatively easy, and worthwhile, as those pin downs alone can kill a warrior in AOE from the bodyguards.

Any attempts to take guys down in the turtle need to be done with your monks at full energy and need to be done as quick in and out raids. As long as you are patient you will eventually kill someone. If you don't, so what? sooner or later they have to come out

usually, their warriors will occasionally push out onto your casters. Make sure they pay for this heavily

Clean their base of all outlying archers

Dont let anyone get out to run a flag or base gank.

If you are getting kills, then watch the timer, and make sure you quickly dispose of any rezzing characters.

Watch for enemy BGs getting drawn out of the turtle - with skill you can sometimes force this.

In general though, take your time, let your monks call the pace of the battle, make sure your warriors dont get bodyblocked in like this nub warrior did last night

and dont take any uneccessary risks. At VoD you should win

Misc Merik · Jul 29, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

We choose to wait at the flag-stand, which turns out to be the right choice.

Good idea a friend of mine would of been dead fast on charging the hall repeatedly.

sir lockt · Jul 29, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Almost every boxed up fight is a lost fight for the turtlers. I have been in many situations we where boxed up. Often the opponent made the mistake and try to take a bodyguard out. The pressure of those are really awesome...and for monks easy to heal out. You kill some but the morale boosts undo all the work...

When the situation was turned around, we normally just pin them down...bodyblock a shrine if they are down some ppl and make sure they never can regroup...and stay out of those nasty firestorms... (sounds noobish, but those firestorm can be devastating when fighting in a tight space...around the GL)

...just wait for the VoD, make sure no runner slips out... and crush them...

Of course you can try to lure a war out with a juicy bait... they might try to break it open... but be carefull..