Curse

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

and by your argument this board has every right to not offer you an RA forum and I for one support it.

case closed IMO.

Of course they have the right not to have an RA forum, just as they have the right to do other things like lock threads, but I didn't make this argument.

I'm arguing they shouldn't excercise that particular right, or that they should rethink it, not that they don't have it to begin with.

holden · Aug 15, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

Yes, and those better players can't write guides for RA because there is no place for them.

there are plenty of things posted about pvp, builds, strategy, etc.

do we really need a guide suggesting players bring 'farming' builds to RA?

it's bad play. it's a place for new guys to go, get frustrated, talk shit and rage quit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

By that logic, there should be no farming section, since a significant part of that section is solo builds and strategies,

it's not a fine line between pve and pvp. there's a huge difference. since RA is really neither, there ought to be a website dedicated to it.

you're very passionate, you should build it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

So, what you're saying is that anyone who has any interest in RA has no desire to learn? I don't think that's true, and in fact, I doubt you think so either.

i think if you linger in RA you do it for all the wrong reasons. macho bullshit, I outlasted my whole team, I took on 3 warriors, I did 156 dmg with one hit....

if you want to learn the skills you're better served on the island with the dummies. if you want to flex your muscles for all to see go to RA. if you want to learn the intricacies of this game in the pvp environment, at least go to TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

They might be like the current pre-mades, but they might not. Who knows? 99% of builds submitted might all totally suck. So what?

we'll i think that would be unproductive to say the least.

it's anet's fault. if they changed random to random teams featuring one monk, one warrior one caster and one ranger there could be some strategy involved. but now it's farm builds and faction farmers. posting builds encouraging that kind of play will only fuel the fire.

Parkerbsb · Aug 15, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I'll be honest, I'm a PvP moderator over at another forum. We decided to have an arenas forum rather than a TA forum.

Most of the RA threads turn into heated discussion about how monks are overpowered in PvP.

JR- is pretty much bang on in your OP quote. RA discussion tends be counterproductive to the "promote quality, discourage crap" mentality he has for these boards.

kryshnysh · Aug 15, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

What would an RA forum have that TA and the general PvP forums don't provide?

Strategies like...? Just about anything that works in RA can be found in the TA section, often with the "that only works in RA" or "that works in RA because most teams have no monk", etc.

The guides you claim that aren't written are almost all there, the worthwhile RA information is usually in TA and not separated out.

Divineshadows · Aug 15, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It's not so much that there aren't things you can do to increase your win percentage in RA, but the fact that the outcome of an individual match isn't in your control at all. 75% of your team could be top players or uncoordinated n00bs, so you're going to win and lose a lot of matches for reasons that have nothing to do with your player skill. That's not something that can be taken seriously as a PvP environment. There are certain things you can do in RA to win a little more often (ie: run a boon prot), but no matter what you run or how good/bad you are, you'll win some matches and lose some matches.

My beliefs about RA were confirmed when I had switched my warrior from axe to hammer and entered RA unknowingly forgetting to switch my attribute points. My team still won very easily and I was very confused why my swings were doing like 4 or 5 damage. I was still getting some knockdowns from bull's strike and devastating hammer and could still apply deep wound with crushing blow, but overall it was basically as if my team was fighting 3 v 4. I quickly mapped out after the last kill to correct my attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

This point works directly against the assertion made elsewhere that there's nothing to learn from RA, since you're arguing that this is a tactical difference.

RA can teach a lot about positioning and damage avoidance. I personally only enjoy doing RA when I bring a build that has no self heal -- a plauge touch hammer warrior without heal sig or defensive stances, a persistence crippling anguish mesmer with inspired hex, a cripshot ranger with blackout and distortion, and an air ele with ether prodigy, draw conditions, and heal other (dying is just a matter of time with this one but offers great support to your allies). Running builds like these and getting paired on teams without a monk really helps train me to be aware of where the opponents damage is and to pre-kite. As a result, it helped me learn how to reduce a lot of damage for my monks whenever I am playing some class other than monk.

I do not see very many players treating RA in this way or trying to play serious builds. I see far too many "solo spiker" builds, too many no damage or utility self survival builds, too many fire eles that do not at least bring some utility like wards or blinding or draw conditions or healing breeze, and too many griefers in the form of players that sacrafice themselves to death repeatedly. I see very few "test builds" which is what a lot of players seem to claim to be the primary purpose of RA.

If I am seriously out to get a gladiator point from RA when my guildmates are not online, then I would run boon prot monk and cycle through a few crap teams (no point in trying too hard to keep a crap team alive) until I land on a team that can actually do some damage and has at least some level of shutdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

I mean no offense here, but I don't think that you (or anyone else here) is my mommy.

ROFL. Not in the mood to call him mommy? Ok then, call him God and know that what he writes is scripture. Hot Dog.

tomcruisejr · Aug 15, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Only good thing bout Random Arena is that it develops your ability to adapt to any situations. And once you team up with 4 people that can adapt pretty fast, you can easily function as a team and the strategies will just come on the fly.

Random Arena team below

but it rarely happens.

and hey, ive seen few builds that are promising outside of RA, and prolly will just be confined there coz of the mainstream builds mentality.

Loch · Aug 15, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Yes, there are things you can do in RA to increase you chances of winning, but that alone doesn't give RA any quality. I mean, hell, you can say the same thing about pugging in PvE with an empty skillbar. Of course you can do things to increase your chances of winning with an empty skillbar, but that doesn't mean forum admins are obligated to make a forum about it.

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkerbsb

I'll be honest, I'm a PvP moderator over at another forum. We decided to have an arenas forum rather than a TA forum.

That would be logically consistent even if not the perfect solution from my perspective. I wouldn't have any major problem with that. It would be clear what should go where. What's the link?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkerbsb

Most of the RA threads turn into heated discussion about how monks are overpowered in PvP.

JR- is pretty much bang on in your OP quote. RA discussion tends be counterproductive to the "promote quality, discourage crap" mentality he has for these boards.

Look, just because people disagree vehemently and sometimes get heated about politics and religion is not a reason to forgo talking about politics and religion. It's usually pretty interesting if you can get past the emotion. Just because people have uninformed or simplistic ideas about things doesn't mean they should not have a place to air those ideas. In fact I'd argue the reverse.

It may very well turn out to be the case and it may have been the case before that RA threads would be particularly unproductive, but from what I have seen of the TA forum, there are quite a few locked threads and the like. In cases where I have actually read the threads, most of them seem to be either flaming or e-strutting of some kind that the moderators decided was unhelpful. So, I hardly think this sort of problem is unique to RA or RA posters. You're not going to get rid of noobs, flames, and crap no matter what you do, so why not be consistent in your approach to moderation and section design?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

it's not a fine line between pve and pvp. there's a huge difference. since RA is really neither, there ought to be a website dedicated to it.

you're very passionate, you should build it.

If you're responding to me, please respond to my actual arguments. It's much more productive than throwing out red herrings right and left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

i think if you linger in RA you do it for all the wrong reasons. macho bullshit, I outlasted my whole team, I took on 3 warriors, I did 156 dmg with one hit....

Feel free to think whatever you want. I do. For the record, though, I like RA partly because it's Random, which makes tactics random. In fact, that may be the main thing I like about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

The guides you claim that aren't written are almost all there, the worthwhile RA information is usually in TA and not separated out.

I said they had no way to write the guides specifically for RA players, because there's no RA-specific place to put them. Is there disagreement on whether there is an RA subforum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

What would an RA forum have that TA and the general PvP forums don't provide?

I think I've addressed this, but in case not, it would provide a place for RA-centric ideas, guides, questions, strategy, tactics, etc. that are appropriate for a 4v4 Random format, as well as being both logically consistent in terms of forum design and also making it clear that the moderators and users of this board know that TA is not RA and that RA is not TA.

So, either the Arenas are so similar that there's no point in differentiating, or they are different enough that they should both have their own place. Which is it?

TheOneMephisto · Aug 15, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I personally don't consider RA PvP.

There just isn't really enough skill in there for it to matter. Most of the people there are stuck in either the "tank and nuke" mindset from PvE or the "KILL THE MONK" mindset which RA tends to encourage.

Also, GW is a team game, and you can't develop team builds or strategies for RA.

Also, most of the locked threads in TA forums are RA builds or untested TA builds based off of RA builds. If you look through some of the locked threads, you get an idea of what an RA forum would look like.

RA just isn't worth it, and would basically consist of a bunch of locked threads, crap builds that wouldn't work anywhere else, and maybe a couple more mainstream builds that you could find in other sub-forums either way.

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

RA can teach a lot about positioning and damage avoidance. I personally only enjoy doing RA when I bring a build that has no self heal -- a plauge touch hammer warrior without heal sig or defensive stances, a persistence crippling anguish mesmer with inspired hex, a cripshot ranger with blackout and distortion, and an air ele with ether prodigy, draw conditions, and heal other (dying is just a matter of time with this one but offers great support to your allies). Running builds like these and getting paired on teams without a monk really helps train me to be aware of where the opponents damage is and to pre-kite. As a result, it helped me learn how to reduce a lot of damage for my monks whenever I am playing some class other than monk.

Well, this is somewhat offtopic but I don't really enjoy playing monk in PvP, so I don't. Likewise, I don't like running damageless completely defensive builds like I see a lot of RA folks doing. Instead, I generally run what I would refer to as light tanks: high mobility and damage, low defense, somewhat akin to what you describe above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I do not see very many players treating RA in this way or trying to play serious builds. I see far too many "solo spiker" builds, too many no damage or utility self survival builds, too many fire eles that do not at least bring some utility like wards or blinding or draw conditions or healing breeze, and too many griefers in the form of players that sacrafice themselves to death repeatedly. I see very few "test builds" which is what a lot of players seem to claim to be the primary purpose of RA.

I test a lot of weird stuff, but I mostly enjoy playing the type of build that I described above. I really don't mind it if I think up a build to test and I end up face down in .5 seconds, though it might be frustrating for my teammates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

ROFL. Not in the mood to call him mommy?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not my mommy.;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Ok then, call him God and know that what he writes is scripture. Hot Dog.

I'm somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, so if he's God he's got a lot of explaining to do.

On a more serious note, I've actually read some of his (and your) posts before and found them well reasoned and well written. That is to say, though I clearly disagree with you both about this issue, I think you've done some good to excellent thinking about this game and more specifically the 4v4 format.

EDIT: Oops. Meant to respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theonemephisto

RA just isn't worth it, and would basically consist of a bunch of locked threads, crap builds that wouldn't work anywhere else, and maybe a couple more mainstream builds that you could find in other sub-forums either way.

It's kind of time consuming to find and read locked threads, so it's pretty hard to characterize them.

So what if they don't work anywhere else? That's not their point. Their point is to make an RA build that works in RA.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 15, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

The big problem with RA isn't that it's a random crapshoot, although it is, the big problem is the people who either take it seriously (and ragequit before the match even starts because their random team hasn't got the ideal composition to farm faction) or don't take it seriously at all and think it's a venue for grief (farking up for their own team on purpose).

Actually, I take that back. The big problem with RA is that the teams are too small to even out the inequality caused by having random teams.

Anyway, I think a forum dedicated to RA would be as hopeless as RA, and for the same reason: some taking it too seriously, some not taking it seriously at all.

Big_L · Aug 15, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

no.. just no. There is already enough crap around here even though the mods do a good job of keeping it clean. Its not about disliking RA. Its about RA not providing any serious or constructive PvP discussion whatsoever.

It would not benefit anyone at all. No experienced pvper would contribute to it or write guides about how to be the next RA champ. RA section would be littered with garbage from noobs, and encourage people to do more RA rather than move on to TA/HA/GVG. No use to anyone. It would actually make the people who read it dumber and worse at this game. I dont even know why this is worth arguing about. Just stop. No RA subforum, please.

Loch · Aug 15, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Look, just because people disagree vehemently and sometimes get heated about politics and religion is not a reason to forgo talking about politics and religion. It's usually pretty interesting if you can get past the emotion. Just because people have uninformed or simplistic ideas about things doesn't mean they should not have a place to air those ideas. In fact I'd argue the reverse.

What the hell are you talking about? The mods here aren't silencing a voice that disagrees, they're trying to prevent scrubs from spreading misinformation all over this PvP forum. There's nothing to say about RA other than, "Bring a half decent build and pray for a good team," so why should there be a forum dedicated to saying that one sentence in many different ways?

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

What the hell are you talking about? The mods here aren't silencing a voice that disagrees, they're trying to prevent scrubs from spreading misinformation all over this PvP forum.

My analogy wasn't well explained, sorry. I meant that sometimes it can be valuable to have discussions with people who completely and fundamentally disagree with you on the basis of their - and your - core assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

There's nothing to say about RA other than, "Bring a half decent build and pray for a good team," so why should there be a forum dedicated to saying that one sentence in many different ways?

Obviously, I disagree as do some other posters in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Anyway, I think a forum dedicated to RA would be as hopeless as RA, and for the same reason: some taking it too seriously, some not taking it seriously at all.

You may be right but the way things are currently set up doesn't make very much sense to me. Was an RA section tried before? I don't know the history of this forum.

Thom · Aug 15, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Few things:
-People don't go to RA for the same reasons. I go to RA to keep myself reasonably fresh during weeks I'm busy and only have an odd 30 minutes to play. I also RA when I want to get used to a skill set or rearrange a skill set on my bar. My build normally is totally oblivious to the environment or a gvg gank build.

-There are various useful training techniques involving RA because you see a wide variety of opposition quickly. None of these involve the type of builds that are RA-efficient.

-If you do have an awesome RA build, why would you want to share it with anyone? Some builds just creep out, but if something is working for you the last thing you want is publicity since copy cats kill efficiency as people learn how to engage off the wall builds.

-RA builds/gimmicks are different from team builds because they are somewhat easier to execute properly and always have a glaring counter. Posting your teams build is much less damagin than posting an RA build.

-As stated, not having a forum is a philisophical choice by this board. RA farming is a horrible introduction to PvP, so encouraging people to optimize for RA isn't helpful. Players who have never pvped may want to do some RA or AB to get used to the pace, but they should do so with builds that are scalable to higher levels of play --all of the premades fit the bill.

Master Fuhon · Aug 15, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I've seen enough about this discussion to believe that there should at least be a guide for beginners about beginning PvP and Random Arenas, but not an entire forum. Random Arenas is one method of testing the game for 1v1 balance, which many people claim is of absolutely no importance in a team game. Just watch five minutes of your favorite sports team to see exactly how the individual matchups can be exploited despite the separate roles each person can fulfill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Anything wins

There are two devastating problems with Random Arenas: low enchant removal and low hex removal. There is a lack of team communication, but it's obvious from watching the top players that they don't need to talk through everything. You also don't need a primary healer to put together a good streak and learn something from the run. Those two mechanics don't work the same in an organized team build. I still have nightmares of playing as a healing monk and having 3-4 hexes or 3-4 conditions (dazed included). Not having teammates to back up your mistakes can make you a better player, but at some point the opposition needs to learn that most teams are more coordinated than PvE monsters (swarm the warrior!).

Aside from those things, I've seen the same high level PvP tactics lead to victory, and the usual sloppy stuff lead to horrible defeats. The junk only works in Random Arenas during off-peak competition times, which also happens in Team Arenas, Hall of Heroes, and during ladder shutdown for GvG. And the answer to the expected comments about the next great Random Arenas build will usually be to have a good team, just like everywhere else.

The good stuff from RA is limited to a scarce few stories. I've seen players have to improvise with suboptimal builds, like an interrupt ranger having to coordinate with my warrior to take down opposing healers and shut down heavy damage dealers, since our own team was monkless. The ranger was highly advanced at anticipating skill use for interrupts (even on boon protects), and I have to say that it was better use of a balanced character than most domination mesmers that are entirely specced to shutdown a monk.

@ the majority opinion

You guys are right about convincing players to get out of the mindset that Random Arenas is an end goal for PvP. I use it for testing and exploration purposes. Don't take losses personally as they will mostly come from matchup disadvantages. Here you can learn how almost every skill in the game functions in a PvP context, and what combinations you will need help dealing with.

On the other hand, there are people who claim to be great PvPers, but only back it up by getting a bunch of their friends along to help. These types of people are threatened about losing to noobs in random areans, so they have unfavorable opinions on the topic. I've seen random teams with established GvG players, and I can easily say their performance had nothing to do with any losses they took. I respect their ability to try to improve despite taking the hits to their self-esteem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

Look, just because people disagree vehemently and sometimes get heated about politics and religion is not a reason to forgo talking about politics and religion.

This is the only concept of the argument that I agree with the OP on. The opposing side runs the risk of hurting the argument by boldly proclaiming "I know better than other people. I can predict the future. I'm only protecting you from yourselves." Finding interesting topics on the internet is rare enough, but we shouldn't have to consider getting rid of it because of all the ego-boosting and elitist criticism that infests this mode of communication.

holden · Aug 15, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

If you're responding to me, please respond to my actual arguments. It's much more productive than throwing out red herrings right and left.

no one is going to change your mind.

but maybe you're right. maybe there should be an RA forum. since it's not really pvp, the farming section would be a great place for it.

i still think you should be in charge

Divineshadows · Aug 15, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

You guys are right about convincing players to get out of the mindset that Random Arenas is an end goal for PvP. I use it for testing and exploration purposes. Don't take losses personally as they will mostly come from matchup disadvantages. Here you can learn how almost every skill in the game functions in a PvP context, and what combinations you will need help dealing with.

It is useful for understanding skill interaction as you do see more variety. The problem is that you are unlikely to see skill interaction between the hands of two good players (whether it be skill interactions between teammates or opposing players).

It is difficult at times to not take losses personally with some of the horrid trash talk that goes on in RA. I mean there is trash talk in every form of PvP, but for players to trash talk in RA just blows my mind away. It makes you want this skill:

Zidane's Headbutt [image of angry soccer player]
10e, 0c, 60r
Elite Off-Hand Attack. Must follow enemy shit talk. If it hits, this attack strikes for +50...200 damage and target foe is knocked down. After 20 seconds, you leave the game. Attribute: Critical Strikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

These types of people are threatened about losing to noobs in random areans, so they have unfavorable opinions on the topic.

No reason to feel threatened really. Sometimes it just so happens that the noobs on your team are worse than the noobs on the opposing team. In other cases, the opposing team has a lucky draw and got a nicely balanced random team that can smash a malformed team consisting of players with a higher average skill level.

Sacho · Aug 15, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I find that the best strategy for RA is to take a decent PvP build with no modifications, roll past a few teams(as in, winning/losing whatever), then get a team with at least 1-2 more people with a decent build, steamroll through RA, get your glad point, then win a few in TA before getting beaten by an organized team.

That's how I've done most of my RA. In my opinion, using it as a training ground for serious PvP is its point - you get all kinds of *random* stuff thrown at you, and you need to learn how to make quick decisions about it. Once you have that down, you can proceed to other forms of PvP.

To put it this way. RA would be a place to learn how skills interact without the need to find 3 other people, or the humiliation of getting owned in almost all matches(TA). There's no magical formula or uber build that will give you a serious chance of winning, as it highly depends on what the other 7 characters are. *Generally* though, the PvP balanced builds listed in other sections have a good chance of interacting well with other characters.

TA would be the place to learn how teams interact within themselves and with each other. Since this also involves single skill interaction, I think the TA forum encompasses whatever the RA forum would bring.

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

no one is going to change your mind.

Please see above for an example of someone doing exactly that. They did it by putting forward a logical solution. Find it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

-People don't go to RA for the same reasons. I go to RA to keep myself reasonably fresh during weeks I'm busy and only have an odd 30 minutes to play.

I like that about RA too. In, out, done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

You guys are right about convincing players to get out of the mindset that Random Arenas is an end goal for PvP.

As for myself, I have no interest in any other form of PvP, except possibly TA. I watched the top guilds and highly rated matches in observer mode and I just ... couldnt ... stay ... awake. I understood some (by no means all) of the tactical and strategic stuff, but that failed to make it interesting enough for me to watch it. It's not for me. If I could watch TA games I might feel differently about what formats interest me, or I might not.

I'm not interested in someone else's idea of what my end goal of PvP should be, unless you want to pay me money for me to play. If that's the case you could start by buying me a copy or two of Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

It is difficult at times to not take losses personally with some of the horrid trash talk that goes on in RA. I mean there is trash talk in every form of PvP, but for players to trash talk in RA just blows my mind away. It makes you want this skill:

Zidane's Headbutt [image of angry soccer player]
10e, 0c, 60r
Elite Off-Hand Attack. Must follow enemy shit talk. If it hits, this attack strikes for +50...200 damage and target foe is knocked down. After 20 seconds, you leave the game. Attribute: Critical Strikes.

Couldn't agree more. When I start wanting this skill is when I usually call it a night. I usually say GG to everyone win or lose, unless it wasn't at all a good game.

From here I suggest that one of three things happen:

-The mods decide that they are being inconsistent and create an RA subforum, or
-The mods decide they are being inconsistent and rename the TA subforum, permitting/encouraging individual builds, tactics, etc. or
-The mods don't do anything for now and this discussion continues, hopefully with good arguments.