Curse

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I'm writing this realizing it might draw some flames, but I am going to go ahead and write it. I'm hoping that this will come across as a reasonable person raising reasonable questions.

I read this board, and contribute to it, with the expectations that

-generally people are reasonable
-there is nothing known to an elite few that is totally unknown to everyone else for a significant length of time
-the moderators can be relied on, in general, to enforce something like nuanced discussion

... among other things.

When I first started reading the PvP section of this board, it seemed obvious that a popular area was missing entirely: Random Arenas.

This seemed more likely to be an oversight than anything else at first. But then I started realizing that there's a fair amount of RA hate floating around.

Then I found a moderator writing this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

A forum discussing RA strategies? There really is no strategy to discuss. I am not interested in a forum filled with threads from 'Arena Champions', and their awesome fast-cast Cleave Mesmer tanks...

I had considered it, simply as a place to put the garbage... but really I would just rather not have the garbage in the first place.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10025941

... and I was disappointed.

This does not seem like a nuanced viewpoint on the topic.

Even supposing that the supposition is true, that there is nothing strategic, tactical, or otherwise useful to discuss that occurs in RA or that could arise from RA players, which I don't for a minute agree with, there's a place for beginning PvP articles on 4v4 basics. So even if there is absolutely nothing that RA players can contribute, an RA forum would not be a bad place for PvP basics or basic questions.

But that supposition isn't true, and it's pretty dismissive of people who choose to play in RA and/or write about it.

So, why the RA hate? Yes, it's random, and yes, a lot of the people playing in it are noobs - so what? If the RA-centric builds, strategies, tactics, or gameplay ideas are not to your liking, then don't read them or play there. As things stand, though, this is kind of like refusing to have a section for people to write guides or build ideas for Team Arenas because you consider it to be too teamlike, or like refusing to have a section for people to write guides or build ideas for solo farming because you consider it to be too solo, and I don't see that happening.

If it's true that RA sucks and there's nothing to learn from it, then it's a good opportunity for the better players to write guides and to teach (which is more or less the entire point of this board unless I am missing something), so there should be an RA section.

If it's not true that RA sucks and there's nothing to learn from it, then the fact that there's no RA section is probably an arbitrary decision, not a logical and nuanced decision, so there should either be an RA section or some discussion about why the relevant moderators dislike RA, or both.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 15, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

It's not so much that there aren't things you can do to increase your win percentage in RA, but the fact that the outcome of an individual match isn't in your control at all. 75% of your team could be top players or uncoordinated n00bs, so you're going to win and lose a lot of matches for reasons that have nothing to do with your player skill. That's not something that can be taken seriously as a PvP environment. There are certain things you can do in RA to win a little more often (ie: run a boon prot), but no matter what you run or how good/bad you are, you'll win some matches and lose some matches.

As a result, RA is actually a pretty bad place to learn about the game. Since any build will work to get wins in RA, a lot of people make absolutely atrocious builds and think they've done something good. It can be quite difficult to get them out of this mindset.

For this reason, RA forums tend to fill up with crap builds that don't really do their jobs well at all. Anything wins, so misinformation abounds and the signal-noise ratio gets atrocious. It becomes a nightmare to moderate, and not particularly useful to browse.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 15, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I am personally opposed to A RA build, because too many times I've gone into RA just to see a melee-mancer or somebody's riposte/deadly riposte farming build.

Quite simply, having an RA discussion (where you have no control of the rest of your team) would pretty much turn it into discussions on individual builds, which is what the warrior/assassin/etc subfolders are for.

Though, I will put my two cents in: there should be a place in the PVP FORUM where one can talk about individual builds/skills and their usage/play strategy whatever, because frankly most of the stuff in the class-specific folders are garbage, and I'd love to see real, serious discussion over various skills (for example, protector's strike or Bull's strike on the bar? Ideas for solo or two man gankers in GVG, etc)

JR · Aug 15, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quite simply I think that the amount of trash that an RA section would attract would outweigh the benefit of having a specific section. There really isn't much to discuss, as just about anything goes in RA. It is not neccesarily anything against you, but given past experience with the way these forums used to be I am stressing a non-tolerance of garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Though, I will put my two cents in: there should be a place in the PVP FORUM where one can talk about individual builds/skills and their usage/play strategy whatever, because frankly most of the stuff in the class-specific folders are garbage, and I'd love to see real, serious discussion over various skills (for example, protector's strike or Bull's strike on the bar? Ideas for solo or two man gankers in GVG, etc)

It is very rare that you can justify posting a single character build, without a full team to go with it. Characters in a build generally all have to synergize, down to even what kind of flag runner you have and what tools they take. In the case of simply wanting to discuss the finer points of the GvG Warriors skill bar, you are perfectly fine to discuss that in the main GvG section.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 15, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Quite simply I think that the amount of trash that an RA section would attract would outweigh the benefit of having a specific section. There really isn't much to discuss, as just about anything goes in RA. It is not neccesarily anything against you, but given past experience with the way these forums used to be I am stressing a non-tolerance of garbage.

It is very rare that you can justify posting a single character build, without a full team to go with it. Characters in a build generally all have to synergize, down to even what kind of flag runner you have and what tools they take. In the case of simply wanting to discuss the finer points of the GvG Warriors skill bar, you are perfectly fine to discuss that in the main GvG section.

true enough. And it would just be a garbage dump, And I have appreciated the effort on JR's part to keep a lot of the crap from clogging this particular toilet.

(Though I do think you close things too early, I'd like to see where some of the IWAY bitchfests will end up).

JR · Aug 15, 2006, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

(Though I do think you close things too early, I'd like to see where some of the IWAY bitchfests will end up).

The same way that the previous four thousand two hundred and ninety seven "IWAY bitchfests" did.

holden · Aug 15, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanego Ategeh

If it's true that RA sucks and there's nothing to learn from it, then it's a good opportunity for the better players to write guides and to teach (which is more or less the entire point of this board unless I am missing something), so there should be an RA section.

the better players already do that. this site is filled with everything you could want and need to be a better player. RA strategies would consist of, as Thom said, riposte builds. farming builds to prove to everyone i'm a bad man. it's crap. the reason JR uses the word garbage is because it's garbage. it is of no use. builds with doylak sig and defy pain would be submitted.

GW is a team game. it is nearly impossible to play as a team in RA. it will be random luck to find 3 other players that understand everyone's skills, role and how they themselves should fit in.

RA doesn't need it's own string, it needs it's own site. Then we could keep the players who have no desire to learn the game seperated from the players that do.

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It's not so much that there aren't things you can do to increase your win percentage in RA, but the fact that the outcome of an individual match isn't in your control at all. 75% of your team could be top players or uncoordinated n00bs, so you're going to win and lose a lot of matches for reasons that have nothing to do with your player skill. That's not something that can be taken seriously as a PvP environment. There are certain things you can do in RA to win a little more often (ie: run a boon prot), but no matter what you run or how good/bad you are, you'll win some matches and lose some matches.

It's been my personal experience that if there are 2 or 3 players with good experience in RA, it's pretty easy to get to 5 or 6 streak regardless of whether the team is balanced. Your experience may differ, but this fact alone points to a pretty high] premium on skill. It may not be as high as other formats, but it is definitely there, and arguing that it's not there on the individual level is not supportable. So what if you win or lose a lot of matches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

As a result, RA is actually a pretty bad place to learn about the game. Since any build will work to get wins in RA, a lot of people make absolutely atrocious builds and think they've done something good. It can be quite difficult to get them out of this mindset.

First, if success in RA is not build dependent as per your above argument, then it obviously must depend on other things. Obvious examples would be individual player skill (involving things like positioning, skill usage, etc.), group coordination (involving things like focusing targets, supporting team members, etc.), team draw luck (like getting a perfectly balanced team), and what I will call tactical luck. It's possible that the mix might be different in different formats, but so what?

Secondly, why do they need get out of an RA-centric build mindset if they stay in RA? I don't see any reason for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

For this reason, RA forums tend to fill up with crap builds that don't really do their jobs well at all. Anything wins, so misinformation abounds and the signal-noise ratio gets atrocious. It becomes a nightmare to moderate, and not particularly useful to browse.

Granted for the moment that posted RA-centric builds would be crap, which assumption I can't really address since I am not a longtime reader of this section, I don't see how that would be different from now. If you haven't noticed, there are quite a few RA builds and RA questions being posted all over this forum, where they do several things: confuse ("Wait, this build is supposed to work in TA?", start arguments ("You're in the wrong section, noob!" or "This would never work in TA") and otherwise distract and detract from the other formats, because some of the information is irrelevant (since it is not intended for that format but is posted there anyway because there is nowhere else), or bad, or both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Quite simply I think that the amount of trash that an RA section would attract would outweigh the benefit of having a specific section. . . .There really isn't much to discuss, as just about anything goes in RA.

(I rearranged the above quote slightly).

I'd like to clarify that I meant nothing personal by pulling out your quote in the first post of this thread. I am merely pointing at an viewpoint apparently shared among moderators that is illogical.

I can't address how the forums used to be because I was not there for it. You may be right, it may attract trash-talking, trash builds, or other stuff. That stuff is all already out there and right now it's spread around in various subforums. If you're concerned about signal to noise in the other forums, and you think anyhting posted for RA would be crap, then you're doing the other forums a disservice by not having an RA subforum.

You assert that the signal to noise ratio would be skewed if you made an RA subforum, and there would be a lot of crap. So what? That doesn't mean that better players couldn't write useful articles on things like positioning, or on learning to coordinate with your team, that could be useful to people at various levels of PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There really isn't much to discuss, as just about anything goes in RA. It is not neccesarily anything against you, but given past experience with the way these forums used to be I am stressing a non-tolerance of garbage.

I obviously disagree that there's nothing to discuss.

Again, I can't really address the way things used to be, but I don't see a need for a really heavy hand in moderating such a forum, even if it is mostly filled with trash.

For anyone experienced with using message boards or other online media, it's usually pretty easy to tell if something is good, or relevant, or whatever. Is it responded to a lot by reasonable people? Yes? Is it written well? Yes? Is it heavily viewed as compared to other threads? Yes? Hmm, maybe it's worth reading then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It is very rare that you can justify posting a single character build, without a full team to go with it. Characters in a build generally all have to synergize, down to even what kind of flag runner you have and what tools they take. In the case of simply wanting to discuss the finer points of the GvG Warriors skill bar, you are perfectly fine to discuss that in the main GvG section.

This may be true but it seems like another instance of disliking a format just because you dislike it. You may have good reasons for disliking something (and there are good reasons for disliking RA), but that doesn't change the fact that there's an essentially circular argument here, something like RA is bad because characters need to synergize because single builds are bad because RA is bad. It's not a logical argument, and it seems to underpin the policy. By subscribing to this argument, you're kind of failing, in my view, one of this board's primary purposes.

sir lockt · Aug 15, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Just a small addition to Wasteland:
Even if you end up with 75% top players... they all might have decided to bring not their elite monk or brought their necro..while the crap team is loaded with interupts or whatever...

I agree with the mods: what is the reason of top-notch RA builds (single char builds) if you dont know the rest of the team? ("no room for that skill..but somebody else will bring it... " and "somebody" just left on holiday...)

yesitsrob · Aug 15, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The same way that the previous four thousand two hundred and ninety seven "IWAY bitchfests" did.

lol, where's that? they all get closed before they end up anywhere

Not like I care, but they do.

I suppose many good "RA" builds would be the current pre-mades no? You'll be able to kill about anything if you learn how to play shock warrior, and you'll learn how to not die if you play boon monk? or something.... It is hard to justify having an RA section though, because it generally is populated by tripe you have no control over

Wacky · Aug 15, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Well, seeing how people post individual builds for PVE, which is also a team game and seeing how most of said individual builds... aren't that good...

Similarly you will find people in TA and HA who just invite a random monk, a random warrior, a random necromancer or ele, etc. and go. Noobs are everywhere.

When I was a new I took the old E/R premade into RA and lost every. single. game. Now I take a better build and lose less games. RA might not have the strategy that other places have, but still having a half-decent build will make a difference to no build at all. I'm tired of being able to tank entire opposing teams with a boon prot.

Big_L · Aug 15, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

um if there is no RA section, then where should I start the "Who is dominating RA?" thread?

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

the better players already do that. this site is filled with everything you could want and need to be a better player.

Yes, and those better players can't write guides for RA because there is no place for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

RA strategies would consist of, as Thom said, riposte builds. farming builds to prove to everyone i'm a bad man. it's crap. the reason JR uses the word garbage is because it's garbage. it is of no use. builds with doylak sig and defy pain would be submitted.

And?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

GW is a team game. it is nearly impossible to play as a team in RA.

By that logic, there should be no farming section, since a significant part of that section is solo builds and strategies, and definitely no sticky like this one. Please note the number of pageviews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

RA doesn't need it's own string, it needs it's own site. Then we could keep the players who have no desire to learn the game seperated from the players that do.

So, what you're saying is that anyone who has any interest in RA has no desire to learn? I don't think that's true, and in fact, I doubt you think so either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitrob

I suppose many good "RA" builds would be the current pre-mades no? You'll be able to kill about anything if you learn how to play shock warrior, and you'll learn how to not die if you play boon monk? or something.... It is hard to justify having an RA section though, because it generally is populated by tripe you have no control over

They might be like the current pre-mades, but they might not. Who knows? 99% of builds submitted might all totally suck. So what?

Van Goghs Ear · Aug 15, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

the problem with RA is that no matter how good you are, or how well thought out your build is, there is no such thing as a skill you can equip called ward against dolyak sig w/mo's, or ward against fire nukers preventing you from getting these people in your team.

another issue I have about RA is that it promotes bad builds. In fact I don't think RA is a good place for new players to start. If anything, in order to be good at PvP you have to UNLEARN the things you "learned" in RA. I say it promotes bad builds because people can take advantage of the odds that a lot of people won't have hex removal, a monk, condition removal, etc. Then you eventually get people believing that Thunder Clap is a good skill (See TA build discussion) because it works in RA. You also get players thinking they have to focus on targets because that is how RA apparently works according to the arena regulars who seem to populate it.

Basically, RA promotes bad pvp habits in the same way that mcdonalds promotes bad eating habits. Don't get me wrong though, it's fun for sh*ts and giggles every now and then.

Wacky · Aug 15, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

By that logic, alliance battles promote bad PVP habits because they encourage you to not bring a res, Zaishen promote bad PVP habits because it encourages trap-nuking builds, and HA promotes bad PVP habits because, if you believe what many people on this forum say, it's just gimmick builds and IWAY.

Every PVP arena has its own nuances, so why should Random Arena be singled out?

Van Goghs Ear · Aug 15, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

zaishen isnt pvp. Peer vs Peer means humans vs humans.

I never said I was a fan of AB either.

yesitsrob · Aug 15, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

um if there is no RA section, then where should I start the "Who is dominating RA?" thread?

You shouldn't start that thread.

Quote:

99% of builds submitted might all totally suck. So what?

because, the well known phrase of "promote quality, discourage crap" is the truth, why would anyone want to just read through a bunch of garbage builds? what's the point? I think it's quite clear that the mods in this section want to have standards....

so on that note, why the hell is there a section for alliance battles

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

the problem with RA is that no matter how good you are, or how well thought out your build is, there is no such thing as a skill you can equip called ward against dolyak sig w/mo's, or ward against fire nukers preventing you from getting these people in your team.

My skill of choice of this type would be Infuse Res Signet. Regardless, some of the most fun PvP moments I've had are when 25-50% of my team has sucked and myself and one other, or just myself, mop up the other team. This has in fact happened to me when I get to TA from RA as well. I agree, it's impossible by the structure of RA to be guaranteed you won't be on a noob's team. So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

another issue I have about RA is that it promotes bad builds. In fact I don't think RA is a good place for new players to start. If anything, in order to be good at PvP you have to UNLEARN the things you "learned" in RA. I say it promotes bad builds because people can take advantage of the odds that a lot of people won't have hex removal, a monk, condition removal, etc. Then you eventually get people believing that Thunder Clap is a good skill (See TA build discussion) because it works in RA. You also get players thinking they have to focus on targets because that is how RA apparently works according to the arena regulars who seem to populate it.

I'd just like to point out that RA promotes two kinds of builds that might be termed [b[bad[/b], at least:

-Builds that suck everywhere (there are a lot of these used in RA by people who are using the arena to try stuff out or Test, as well as by people who just like the names of the skills or something)
-Builds that suck in TA but are strong in RA

Just because they suck in TA (or elsewhere) doesn't necessarily mean they have to suck in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

You also get players thinking they have to focus on targets because that is how RA apparently works according to the arena regulars who seem to populate it.

This point works directly against the assertion made elsewhere that there's nothing to learn from RA, since you're arguing that this is a tactical difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

Basically, RA promotes bad pvp habits in the same way that mcdonalds promotes bad eating habits. Don't get me wrong though, it's fun for sh*ts and giggles every now and then.

Even assuming I totally agreed with this, your argument is that there shouldn't be support for RA because, basically, RA is bad for you. I mean no offense here, but I don't think that you (or anyone else here) is my mommy.

So even if RA had been proven to cause cancer in laboratory rats, I don't think you or anyone else have the right to tell me not to eat an RA Big Mac, read about people who like to eat Big Macs, or write about how many Big Macs I can eat. I'm not hurting you (in fact, I am helping you in various ways by making you more sure you don't have to eat a Big Mac unless you really want to). I should be able to eat a Big Mac.

For the record, though, the only thing I ever eat at McDonald's is french fries because I know they will survive anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wacky

Every PVP arena has its own nuances, so why should Random Arena be singled out?

Exactly. It shouldn't.

Van Goghs Ear · Aug 15, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

and by your argument this board has every right to not offer you an RA forum and I for one support it.

case closed IMO.

Hanego Ategeh · Aug 15, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

because, the well known phrase of "promote quality, discourage crap" is the truth, why would anyone want to just read through a bunch of garbage builds? what's the point? I think it's quite clear that the mods in this section want to have standards....

You don't have to read them if you don't want to, and in fact the proposed change might make it easier for you to avoid them, to moderate, and to promote quality in other areas if the "All Builds Posted for RA Will Be Crap" assertion is taken as a given. Or are you arguing that there are no garbage builds posted for other formats?