Curse

Daneish · Jul 18, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I equate choosing to leave a bugged player bugged as exploiting a game mechanic, and it's just bad form. We're not talking about handicapping our own teams here, but simply allowing the other team to play at full capacity.

Err7's happen, but those are nothing like bugged players: you can unbug a player without compromising your build or strategy, and it's a free -15% to that player's morale score. That in and of itself is a reward for player integrity.

On the professional level, games are stopped so that injured players can be subbed out or attended to, both for the players' safety and to ensure that both teams are competing at their highest level. You'll see many times on the soccer field a player will be injured, taken off the field, treated, and he'll return to the game. Likewise, a player is bugged (injured), killed (taken off the field), and resurrected at his guild's res shrine (returns to the game). As competitive Guild Wars and soccer are both games based on controlling given space, by a clock, the analogy is a good one.

It's a shame sportsmanship is optional. On the playing field, I'll always help a man up before kicking him when he's down.

Valens, Head Idiot for Pyrrhic Victory [pV]

Byron · Jul 20, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

On the playing field, I'll always help a man up before kicking him when he's down.

Frickin' QFT. Honor is a dying virtue, and it even shines through to video games.

Patrograd · Jul 26, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I wanted to take the time to thank the guys from Xoo main who despite taking a bit of a beating last night, killed our necro when he got stuck on druids.

Thanks guys, will return the favour some day ;-)

psygnosis · Jul 26, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

"To care for anyone else enough to make their problems one's own, is ever the beginning of one's real ethical development."

I always tried to be as nice in an online community as i would be in real life, i give stuff to low lvl`s for free, i help with pve missions when someone asks nicely etc., when it comes to pvp i never used advantages like duped high end items like most of the players did in diablo 2 for example or anything comparable to this in any other game, just because the game designers couldn`t fix it doesn`t mean it`s ok to use it as an advantage.

When it comes to stuck players in gvg my guild always kills em, doesn`t matter if it`s "no clue" or "clan of evil darkness"...sure it sucks if someone wouldn`t do the same for us and i would be displeased, but something you learn when you play a lot of online games is that there is no such thing like ethics here, you are playing in a virtual world without rules, most ppl leave their conscience behind when they log in ~

Wrynn · Aug 02, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

How about this, if you are a regular gvger, youve probably played against many similarly ranked guilds, multiple times, take it like this, do you know them? Guest for them/tombs with them? They get a steps glitch, help them out, like valens said, its free 15% DP and like 1/4% morale boost to anyone below even. Same for "new" guilds that seem to be people learning, or even people you have had no problems with in the past.

However, were they someone who laughed that you got an err 7 last time you two met? Did they do "Im better than you tactics? (kill them down to very low, let them regen, etc). Basically didnt show you any courtesy? Then return the favor. (Im not saying point and laugh if they get an err7, just if they have someone stairs bugged, just ignore it).

Id be willing to bet the majority of guilds regularly placing in the top 100 have a pretty good idea who the good and bad sports are.

Born Trippy · Aug 03, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

i'm all for fairness and sportsmanship but i disagree with this idea of "ethics" in gw.
first of all, the opposing team isn't responsible for any bugs that may occur during a match.
Secondly, everyone in daily gvg (or any pvp for that matter) knows about these bugs so it is their own responsibility to deal with them.
there's always a possibility to get stuck in stairs/bridges etc... easy solution: bring a vampiric weapon.

the problem with helping the opposing team when glitched is apparent if you think a bit further. ppl might exploit bugs etc. to actually gain an advance in the game (maybe not the whole getting stuck issue since i can't see a reason to do it on purpose.. altho i know how to do exactly that).

we had a gvg recently where 5 ppl on the other side "left" the game within a couple seconds time. without getting into details it was at a time where my guild recovered from an early advance on their side and eventually pushing them back to their gh. they then demanded that we all resign and give away the win because "they were clearly in advance" before more than half of their team "err7ed". while we refused to and asked them how it should be our fault for their bad luck they throw insults at us etc. blah blah... that didn't help them to make us leave of course so we kept on playing and gg.

you might already get the idea what i am referring to, but you can always "fake" an err7 by just leaving the match at the turn of the tide and rely on "ethics" to make the team giving away the match. i'm not saying the other team "err7ed" on purpose and i won't tell the name of the guild but there's always the possibility...

if we demanded a free win for matches we would have easily won but got screwed by err7s or bugs we would have a way better win/loss ratio.. but since it can happen to anyone you have to live with it and can't blame anyone for it (except maybe the game itself for the lack of being able to rejoin a match or getting disconnected in the first place).

Neo-LD · Aug 20, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Since there is already a thread related to this topic and I dont think the offenders in this case really deserve their own thread, I will post this here.

Yesterday, GSS was having a moderately successful night of GvG, going 4-1 before, on the last match of the night, we were matched against another guild (let's call them [888]), who was rank ~30 at the time. The match started off well, everyone polite with gl's and hf's. However, as soon as the battle was joined, everyone in the game experienced a massive lag spike. On our side, 1 person err7ed out, and I was lagged so bad I was doomed to spend the entire rest of the game horribly rubber banding - useless. Also, we then noticed that our runner had never loaded, meaning we had ~5 functional people. On their side, apparently 4 people err7ed out, and 2 more were left frozen for a while. So they had somewhere between 2-4 functional people.

After this happened, the opposing team immedeately began to whine in local chat. They asked us to resign, and not tank their rating, since "they were going for top 16". Since they had a shot for top 16, and we 'clearly' didnt, we should give up... we then politely declined. Afterwards, they spent the rest of the match (32 minutes) whining, complaining, calling us scrubs, and being overall condecending and rude. To top it off, they then proceeded to accuse us of trash talking. (sorry, anyone who knows GSS knows we're one of the most respectful guilds you'll meet; we dont trash talk even if the other person starts it, as was the case here)

After the game, this was the scene on #gwp.

Quote:

<[888]Player1> RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing GSS scrubs
<Loose> elroy did gss beat u?
<[888]Leeroy> Yes
<Omoc> What did GSS do Elroy
<Loose> WOW
<[888]Leeroy> 4 err7s
<Loose> owned
<Loose> rofl
<Loose> i was in GSS
<[888]Player1> 4 err7s, 2 of us that were still there couldn't move
<furry[fake]> ouch
<[888]Leeroy> -25
<Loose> they're nice guys but they suck.
<[888]Leeroy> RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing douche bag scrubs
<furry[fake]> so its 2v8
<furry[fake]> big deal
<furry[fake]> win more
<[888]Leeroy> they were trash talking
<Bust> Now, in that scenario, I would've resigned
<[888]Player1> RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing scrubs
<furry[fake]> =(
<Daron> so uh ya
<Bust> 4 err7s is a bit harsh
<[888]Leeroy> RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing piece of shit unknown scrub fags

Ok, that makes me mad. Not just a little, but alot. If theres one thing I hate, but can tolerate, its idiocy. But the one thing that is intolerable is idiots who think they are justified.

1) They only protray their side of the story, neglecting to mention that we also were down several members. We ended up on the less severe end of the disconnects, but thats not our problem. Complain to anet, not us.

2) They refer to us as 'unknown'. Uh huh. Whose unknown? GSS has been around since game release. We've been gvging since January. We have tradition. They, on the other hand, are a pug guild who is only where they are because they have people from QQ and Te holding their hands. They will disband shortly. As far as Im concerned, they are the unknown guild: I had never heard of them prior to our game.

3) They refer to us as 'scrubs'. Uh huh. Clearly they have never met us, never played us, nothing. And because we are unwilling to surrender to a bunch of whining fools, we are scrubs. Right. Scrubs is a term assigned to people that are unwilling to play to win, and live in their own homemade version of the game. It is sometimes used incorrectly as a synonym for nubs. First, if they have an expectation that the other team should resign because they are a lower rank, they are the ones living in a homemade version of the game, and they are the scrubs. Second, I assure you that GSS is not nubs and they have no right to imply as such.

If anyone knows anything about losing games they dont deserve to, its GSS. Our runner err7s out of 25% of the games we play. At one point this season, I (a monk) dropped out of FIVE CONSECUTIVE GAMES, for a net loss of more than 50 rating for the night. So please dont come whining to us about losing a game you didnt deserve to. err7s happen to everybody. As far as Im concerned, the +25 we recieved from [888] is a small compensation for all the rating we've been unjustly denied. However, in not one game this season, have we ever complained, asked for the other team to resign, nothing. The most you'll get is a "gg, err7 =(" once you beat us after an err7.

AND YET. They feel somehow justified in rediculing a guild they know nothing about. I can understand "Leeroy's" frustration, but to take it out on us is unacceptable.

The ethics regarding err7, as far as Im concerned, are as follows. The other team is under no obligation to drop a man or resign. You can ask them to resign once. If they agree, fine. If they dont, dont bring it up again. Period. These ethics dont change based on rank or time of ladder season.

And most of all, dont drop yourself so low as to reduce yourself to petty insults to the other team.

Note to Mods. I dont feel this is particularly insulting to those involved, particularly considering what they said (first) unto us. It is also completely relevent to the thread it is posted in. As such, please dont delete it. However, if you feel it is inappropriate for guru, I will move it to team-iq instead.

[EDIT: Names changed for the sake of anonymity. -JR]

Rapture · Aug 21, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

you can unbug a player without compromising your build or strategy, and it's a free -15% to that player's morale score. That in and of itself is a reward for player integrity.

until you see a ganking assassin stop to kill a stuck warrior and then have one of the opponents abuse the situation by attempting to kill the assassin and/or guild thief.

honourable times we play in.

timmyw29 · Aug 21, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

The guild I'm in is one of on-the-spot situation-based decisions. Squidgets great at that. There's nearly always a GvG team concensus on what we are going to do when it comes to ethical decisions.

If we see a stuck player, we decide there and then whether it is reasonable to kill them for the other team, or whether it's unreasonable. If your guild's being jerks about us not killing a stuck player, all the more likely we'll not kill the dude. On the other hand if you're in a guild that's respectable, takes the hit and says nothing more, there's been more than one time where we've killed the player to release them from the shady grips of some staircase somewhere.

While we're discussing GvG ethics:
Say your guild is GvGing on a smurf to test some new build out, and you come up against a well-respected, relatively high-ranked guild. Would you bow and resign when you've half-killed the Guild Lord and their monks are nowhere near able to save him? Or would you tank their rating for -25 for no real gain as far as your guild, or you personally are concerned? If you're there to win and gain rank/rating, well I guess you'll tank the other team's rating. If you're there to test a build, maybe you'd consider resigning at the Lord and sparing them some hard-earned and well-deserved rating.

I'm a fan of doing things democratically, situation by situation. On the spot decisions based on who you're against, what you're doing where you are, whether the team you're against deserves that kind of respect. Things of this nature are situational, so decide it situationally.

I could quote fifty people in this thread who propose different situations for both sides. Use your brains, use a little democracy, play to your purpose.

EDIT: I feel I should add that Neo-LD has pretty much made the point I was going for. They were gvging on the guild they always GvG in, it wasn't some smurf, they weren't testing things. GSS were, as far as I can tell from what's been said, playing to gain rank/rating and win. Trash talk (like I said) just means you're going to be less likely to resign for them.

just call me jimmy · Aug 21, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

I think what this thread should teach everyone, is that allot of players would just dance on your stuck teamates head.
Easy way to fix this problem is everyone on the team should be carrying a vamp weapon.

Problem solved

MagicFiber · Aug 22, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I kill stuck people depending in how they act. If they're friendly & deserve it i will. But if it's either a smurf, trashtalkers i wouldn't do it. Just because i have the choice. I like to win depending on my team's skill. 9 out of 10 times i'll just kill the stuck person.

The only thing you should know is that if you kill the person, you shouldn't expect something similar if it'd happen to you.

Bottomline, it's your own choice. If you like winning with an advantage of a player being stuck. Suit yourself, it's not against the rules. However alot of people think it's just decensy to kill that person. Also think about the next time you'll face these guys & it happens to you.

still.mojo · Aug 22, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Agreed, there is only matter of personal choice, and other teams behaviour.
I had situation in Gvg, dont remember opponent, where they had smiter stuck below ground, in footman area on war isle.
We offered them to kill him, they first healed him, took their team like 4 mins to agree what to do, which i stupidly wasted in that confusion, since we were rolling then since minute 1.
Since then if others ask politely , and dont do anything bitchy, i kill stuck pearson quick, if not, i consider it their own problem.
For myself, i carry double vamp weapon (+15 always -1 regen , + vamp on it), so i dont rely on other guilds generocity.And as someone noted far before, if ure pvp char, use storage for it, if u dont have it, dont nag since its your own mistake.
There are moments, when getting stuck makes match auto loose, vod moments etc, ffs i saw reno flag stuck underground on similar place where that monk was, and they played vs evil.
Thats all gamers luck component, u can just be mad bout it happening, and move on.

JR · Aug 22, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by still.mojo

For myself, i carry double vamp weapon (+15 always -1 regen , + vamp on it), so i dont rely on other guilds generocity.And as someone noted far before, if ure pvp char, use storage for it, if u dont have it, dont nag since its your own mistake.

Go a step further; low AL 55hp armor/focus.

Gone in ~12 seconds.

romO · Aug 22, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Go a step further; low AL 55hp armor/focus.

Gone in ~12 seconds.

I'm jealous that you have that much inventory room =(

Maybe I should stop bringing dual earth and water shields? Bah, who am I kidding... the match after I do that, I am going to run into a team full of ice spear/stone daggers spammers...

Neo-LD · Aug 22, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Ask yourself: if you ran into a team full of stone daggers / ice spear spammers, would your equipment matter much anyways?

tomcruisejr · Aug 22, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

We heard trashes from most of the guilds that we faced before in GvG. So what the F is ETHICS?

its a game. error 7/being stuck not only happens to the other team but to you as well. opportunity to win is there, grab it coz they might/will do the same to your team.

Ss Executioner · Aug 22, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I used to be all for ethics and if they need to be killed to even the field, we do so.

UNTIL. We played against a very top guild... think on the plane to germany atm... and they started the game by saying "damn err7.... glhf". And us being honorable we ask what is gone, they say the flag runner... we were running 2 war + sin so it didn't matter to us and we said that we'd drop our runner too to make the game even.

However. After he dropped and we got up to the stand.... they had all 8 players and sat there laughing their jolly old heads off at us.

Sportsmanship is dead.

Griev · Aug 22, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Don't be a scrub, play to win.

JR · Aug 22, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ss Executioner

I used to be all for ethics and if they need to be killed to even the field, we do so.

UNTIL. We played against a very top guild... think on the plane to germany atm... and they started the game by saying "damn err7.... glhf". And us being honorable we ask what is gone, they say the flag runner... we were running 2 war + sin so it didn't matter to us and we said that we'd drop our runner too to make the game even.

However. After he dropped and we got up to the stand.... they had all 8 players and sat there laughing their jolly old heads off at us.

Sportsmanship is dead.

Didn't think to count how many had loaded?

Ss Executioner · Aug 22, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Most of us have terrible computers, so we wuoldn't be able to count for sure mate... But. It is in the past, and I have learnt to have local turned off in GvGs permenantly.