Curse

Red Locust · Jul 04, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Getting stuck in GW is a completely unforseen and unprovoked event, whereas tripping on your shoelaces would be partially your fault for being a clumsy bastard and rightfully lose you the game.

Let's say you're sprinting in a race and all of a sudden the ground in front of you collapses unforseeably and you fall down, losing the race. Or you're goaltending in a game of football and some guy in the stands throws a bottle at you, smacking you across the face and taking you out, leading to a goal for the other team. Or if a guy gets injured on the field, the other team would take the ball out of play so that the guy can get medical attention.
All of those are unforseeable events and would lead the players / ref stopping the game and fixing the situation, yet there are no specific rules dictating what should be done.

Don't just say "omg play to win like Sirlin said" and ignore everything else, because there are obvious limits to playing to win. I'm not saying you always have to kill stuck players, but don't call people that do so scrubs. Sportsmanship is a part of competitive games. Else what's stopping me from slipping something in someone's drink or otherwise injuring him before a big game? It'd be playing to win, wouldn't it?

Patrograd · Jul 04, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

All of those are unforseeable events and would lead the players / ref stopping the game and fixing the situation, yet there are no specific rules dictating what should be done.

The thing is, that ANet is the referee in all this. They have to fix the bugs, then there is no ambiguity.

Quote:

Let's say you're sprinting in a race and all of a sudden the ground in front of you collapses unforseeably and you fall down, losing the race

well, thats a pretty extreme example. lets say instead that its the last minute of a football game which is tied, and you score after handling the ball, but the referee doesn't spot it. I dont think I have ever seen a professional (ie competitive, play to win) player go up to the ref and say "hang on mate, I handled the ball, it shouldn't be a goal". Or you trip over the ball in the penalty area and the referee gives a penalty, I dont think there are many serious competitive players who would tell the referee that they were wrong and that actually it should be a goal kick.

Everyone accepts that the referee (ANet) makes mistakes (introduces bugs) and that as long as those bugs aren't game breaking (like the old lock yourself in the base routine) then that's just the way it is. Handle it, like you would handle error 7s. Stuff happens, cope or lose.

asdar · Jul 04, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

I would kill the glitched player, but I can't really fault most people that leave him there. We've lost when our flag runner glitch stuck and we all felt like it cost us the match, but we weren't bitter toward the other team.

I'm always for a fair game and hate to win through an err 7 or anything glitchy. If someone does though, that's part of gaming too, they didn't intentionally do anything.

zola · Jul 04, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I'm under the impression that in the third match of IB against no clue, one of the no clue player got stuck and was trying to die out of degen only to get healed through heal party. Finally one of the iB player dispatched the guy.

I found it refreshing.

--zola

TheOneMephisto · Jul 04, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

They may have won the battle, but they lost the war.

Still, killing that assassin didn't lose them the other 2 games.

yesitsrob · Jul 04, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I always kill stuck players, yeah i'll get a shitty feeling if I lose, but it's not exactly a win I'd care for - I'd rather kill them and still win the game anyway, I like to think the guild is capable of winning matches without someone on the enemy team having to get stuck.

I don't really expect people on the enemy team to kill our stuck players, but I think one hell of a lot more of people that do, and stop trying to compare people getting stuck in the ground to football, there's so many ways you could look at it because people do kick the ball out for others to get treatment, but at the same time they won't be shouting "REF! I WAS OFFSIDE, DISALLOW MY GOAL K THX!"

Whatever the case, not killing someone is bad sportsmanship, if you're fine with playing like that though, then cool...

Kabale · Jul 04, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

This is entirely Anet's fault for failing to address it and leaving players to be the ones to deal with it.

And as they have no pre-existing rules to govern it, there will be players on both sides of the coin arguing with each other about what's right and what's not, while not actually getting anywhere.

You decide; do what makes you feel good. It's your game, after all.

Living Legend · Jul 04, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I'm behind rent 100%, doesn't matter about sportsmanship the other team probably wouldn't do it to you unless they have no clue that, that what you want them to do, and if you get a little assistance from a glitch it's always in your favor and can give you a big upper hand.

Parkerbsb · Jul 05, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

You decide; do what makes you feel good. It's your game, after all.

Likley the most intelligent point in this thread.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 05, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkerbsb

Likley the most intelligent point in this thread.

The problem that it isn't just your game. It's the entire playerbase's game, and if it makes you feel good, you might be ruining the experience for others. I don't know about some people here, but I try to help out the people on the other side of the wire, if only to ensure that they can enjoy it also.

Corn Sword · Jul 06, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

lol, killing a person who is stuck will indeed give your team an advantage through the generation of good karma....lawl

Joiya Byir · Jul 06, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Having a good reputation in the pvp community may help you much more in the long run than leaving a player stuck.

Parkerbsb · Jul 06, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

@ Memphisto - there is a distinction between (for instance) a greifer in RA running; or me choosing not to kill a stuck player.

In the former example I am trying to ruin others fun; the latter I'm not involved in the loss of the other person's enjoyment... other than refusing to be a good samaritan.

Personally I evaluate the situation before I kill/don't kill a stuck player - if they are a newbie team; we are just trying to have some fun or we know the team as a good group I'll go ahead and kill their stuck player.

If they are being dicks over all chat, or we are trying to improve our ladder position - I'll leave em stuck.

@ Joiya - In the competetive levels of GvG I think they'd appreciate you being able to win more than you being a "really nice guy"

sr3yas · Jul 16, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I got this quote off a friend, and it dictates my play style in guild wars

"We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak! If a man confronts you, he is your enemy! An enemy deserves no mercy."
---From the Karate Kid

pindun · Jul 16, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Yeah, but since we are not at war with our opponents, rather we are _playing a game with them_, I'd prefer it if my oponents leave the game with a positive impression of me. And I feel good about my wins.

Its a personal choice. We really can't dictate what other's do or blame them for following or taking advantage of the game mechanics (exploits aside). And we can make a personal choice of whether we want to do it ourselves or not. I choose to treat the people I play with fairly and with honor. I like it when others do the same to me, but I'm not going to get all bent out of shape if they don't. Thats their business.

cheers,
pin

and IRL when I am confronted with somebody who is going to hurt me and they get stuck on a corner I will run or beat the hell out of them whichever keeps me safer. But thats RL.

Lando Griffen · Jul 17, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr3yas

I got this quote off a friend, and it dictates my play style in guild wars

"We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak! If a man confronts you, he is your enemy! An enemy deserves no mercy."
---From the Karate Kid

If you're going to quote Karate Kid, then consider a guild battle more like sparring, in which case you have an opponent, but not necessarily an enemy. I don't consider a guild battle a threat on my life

Also, if you're gonna relate guildwars to martial arts, consider that honor > victory.

pindun · Jul 17, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Yeah, isnt that quote from the leader of the evil dojo. The guy who got beaten up by mr. Miagi and who's student was defeated by Daniel on 1 leg?

Sinjin · Jul 18, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Popular thread.

I was actually in the GvG in question, and that anonymous post in the OP was mine from our own guild forums.

Here's the scenario as it played out:

1. It was a pretty even fight in the mid game, they were winning with an advantage. They pressed into our base and boosted about two times, but we were pushing back out after an autoress and managed to push them out of our base through the front gate. Not only that, but we also managed to cap and were trying to hold for our own boost, since we had scored a few kills of our own.

2. As we were pushing them out, we got a few kills and noticed that one of their players glitched in our stairs. We were expecting to take advantage of their glitch, and our team leader specifically said: "do not kill their glitched player, leave him there".

3. an individual player chose, based on personal ethics, to pursue his own intentions (directly against the team leader's directions) to kill their glitched player when that said individual ressed.

We lost the GvG (no big deal, you take your losses with your wins). But people were upset as a team, a little raging on vent, emotional dp for the remainder of the night, and we ended GvGs for that day.

In a video game (since no one's physical health is at stake) - there should be no instance when you should assist the other team to beat you.

And that's the main point. If you've already lost the game, and you kill their glitched player, no big deal. Or if you're decisively winning and opt to kill, I would agree with that.

But in the event you're duking it out, or are trying to press your momentum, or turning the tides of the fight - absolutely in no scenario should you assist them.

If we wanted to kill their glitched player, we would have chosen a more appropriate time: when we're decisively winning or decisively losing. Doing so mid-fight when the game is up for grabs is unacceptable in a competitive environment.

There isn't an award for "Best Sportsmanship". Only wins are rewarded.

Thom · Jul 18, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

My guild was involved in a top 20 match early in the weekend on the Meditation Isle. Everyone knows you have to watch out for the door trapping you on that map. Two of there warriors got trapped in our door at about 20:00 and there team didn't have their thief with them. We immediately started using the other gate exclusively and pushed the advantage by no allowing them to move their thief. One of the warriors vamped out and the other one was killed right at VOD. My guild decided to extensively exploit that bug to ensure victory in a close game.

Everyone who's played much GvG is aware of this bug. It probably happens at least once in every match played on Meditation Isle. Every player in a top guild should know that a vamp weapon is required for serious play. SInce our guild has played on Meditiation Isle, we've been really cautious about positioning around the door and proper use of the guild thief because people will bait you and drop the door much like they use the catapult. Much like old knights armor, that door is a bug which everyone is aware of and should play around.

The other team was so busy whining about the bug, that their level of play declined. If you want to be a top 20 team, your going to have to deal with bugs and player drops without charity from your opponents. No one has ever intentionally dropped a player when one of ours got an error 7. The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would expect them to do to you." I'm expecting oppontents to exploit everything they can within the playing enviroment to gain an advantage, therefore I'm going to play to win.

shardfenix · Jul 18, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

*lol at thread title*
GVG is about winning. Not about being good or having a new build. Another reason why I hate gw.