Curse

Vindexus · Aug 07, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

As I see it, the current metagame is a very melee centric pressure metagame. I've seen a few guilds running 2 W/N's with Plague Touch and Two thumpers. Other teams are running fairly standard three warrior builds. iQ was even running 4 thumpers tonight. I think this is due mainly in part to the ritualist. Without insane amounts of pressure it's really hard to crack a team with two monks and rit.

Now the question I'd like to ask is: where do you guys see the metagame shifting? I personally see it going towards heavy hex teams with built-in spikes. The hexes will supply a decent amount of warrior hate, but because you don't have much caster shutdown or vast amounts of pressure you'll have to resort to spikes to kill. This is hindered by rits however so if the other team has a rit, I don't know how'd you kill.

Just looking for everyone's thoughts on the current metagame and its destination.

Yanman.be · Aug 07, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Soul Bars Spike? FoC Spike?

Hidden in the Mist · Aug 07, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Blood spike.

Red Locust · Aug 07, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Melee-heavy builds have always been present, it just seems now the spike and hex builds have kind of died out in favor of...more melee-heavy builds.

Hex-heavy looks like a logical way of bypassing rits, but like you said there's still that final blow that will be hard to deliver with a rit around, and there's a lot of stuff like empathic removal and expel hexes that you can stash away on warriors, mesmers or whatever in case the metagame starts shifting towards hex-heavy. I just don't see it working out, more thumpers pls.

Patrograd · Aug 07, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Hex-heavy looks like a logical way of bypassing rits, but like you said there's still that final blow that will be hard to deliver with a rit around, and there's a lot of stuff like empathic removal and expel hexes that you can stash away on warriors, mesmers or whatever in case the metagame starts shifting towards hex-heavy. I just don't see it working out, more thumpers pls.

A decent hex build can apply potentially 80+ hexes per minute, even from three casters. Yes, you can mitigate those hexes with the skills listed, but you wont remove them all (even builds with heavy hex removal are likely to struggle to remove 30 hexes/minute) and most of those you do remove will likely be chaff like parastitic leaving the money hexes in place. This means you have to kill before the pressure bites, and even with alot of hex removal in your build the pressure will bite sooner rather than later unless you are getting kills in on those casters who are applying the hexes.

Of course a hex heavy build needs a spike finish, but I'm not convinced it needs to be a co-ordinated multi player spike, often a single adrenaline dump will do just nicely, even with a ritualist shelter/union spammer, if the hex pressure has been suffiicient to that point to wear down the monks ability to react.

However, I wouldnt say that hex heavy is an easy solution, as the levels of co-ordination required across the team are very high, and adding melee characters seems like a more straightforward solution

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 07, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Hex heavy is a decent counter to the current metagame. In my experience Cripshot and Melandrus rangers are popular now, which means that they could disable some of your hexes just by throwing around the interrupts. Obviously this won't stop an illusion mesmer, but a necromancer's best hexes in the curses line are 2s cast.

Basically, there are two ways you see teams getting kills in high-level GvG at the moment. There are some exceptions, but this is the norm:

-Run a two-warrior spike some other characters to assist with shatters and orbs. Pack in a lot of defense, often in the form of a Ritualist, and rely on your spikes to kill. This strategy is versatile against a lot of builds and works pretty well, but a Ritualist on the other team makes it almost impossible to score any kills.

-More common at the moment: pressure your opponent with massive damage and degen until they run out of energy. To do this you generally bring 5 offensive characters and rely on crushing the other team before they can break your relatively undefended backline. One popular version of this offense was initially run by KGYU, and consists of 2 warriors, 1 thumper, a Melandru's ranger, and a Cripshot ranger. The degen these rangers create deals a lot of damage and they can also interrupt heal parties in disrupt enemy flagrunners. Meanwhile, their three warriors rage your backline and force you to play defensively. It's a tough build to beat if you can't immediately pressure out their defense. Once your soft targets have DP they'll just overrun you, Rit or no Rit.

One notable fact about these builds is that a lot of them run completely without enchantment removal. This makes skills like Aegis a pretty strong counter which can reduce a lot of the pressure on your team. Likewise, their lack of support characters at the flagstand can be used against them with Taints, trappers, or hex spam. I also think you'll see a lot more builds that run a single smiter - with that much offense they can put really serious pressure on one target at a moment's notice. Being able to throw AoE on a pressured target can make a huge difference in your monk's energy pools, and will save you a lot of energy overall if the other team likes to pressure your flagger. Smiters are also strong pressure and utility characters, so there isn't much reason not to run one.

Personally, I'm very happy with this change in the meta. I find trying to beat the energy out of the opposing monks and deal as much damage as possible to be much more interesting than trying to guess spike targets.

Neo-LD · Aug 07, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Vindexus' observations on the current metagame are dead on. Melee Pressure is the way almost everyone is going these days. Usually people like to support it with loads of degen (commonly cripshot rangers, melandrus rangers, tainted necs). More than 2/3 of our matches last night were against huge pressure offenses with at least 3 melee characters.

The counter, of course, is to take loads of physical hate. One way of doing this has already been suggested, the hex team. Any other sort of physical hate will help as well; Aegis, Ward Vs Melee, Water Elmos, Traps, etc. Other spells that are pretty much required: Heal Party, Extniguish.

Also, melee heavy builds have a tendency to be vulnerable to aoe. If you take alot of aoe, consider balling up momentarily (in a ward, preferabely) to get all of their melee more or less in one place. Turn on your aoes and they wont have the defense support their 3+ melee characters all getting simultaneously nuked. You might get a kill(s), you might not. Spiking one of the melee with warriors while you aoe almost guarentees a kill. Either way, the melee will get off of you for a few seconds to get out of the aoe, and it lets your defense catch its breath.

The number 1 mistake people make when facing these builds: thinking that you have to try to exploit their 'weak' defense. Racing a pressure build with any sort of balanced just doesnt work: you may get a couple of the first kills but sooner or later you are going to rout. Instead, focus on playing good team defense. Throw your spikes at the thumpers. Kite + snare like crazy. Make sure you are still dealing good damage, tho. If you can live long enough, their 'weak' defense will exploit itself. (i.e., their monks will run out of energy if the battle goes long, since their team has little/no mitigation and your damage will eventually take its toll)

latbec · Aug 07, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I see 3 trends in today's builds:
1) high pressure (thumpers & co)
2) high defense (ritualist & co)
3) spike with degen (warriors & condition rangers)

All these builds are relatively light on hex removal and usually carry such function through an elite which can be totally disabled by sig of humility. In my opinion, a few teams running a well-played hex heavy build could climb the charts very fast in the current metagame.

K U J A · Aug 07, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I hope it goes towards hex heavy teams, because then teams will start bringing anti hex skills. And the first thing i think about when i hear anti-hex is Natures Renewal. I've really wanted to see ranger spirits in GvG for a while now. I know it can be beat by splitting, but rit spirits work fine so why wouldnt ranger's?

FYI, hexes were popular before factions (i think it was then) with the mixed spikes built in. And before that, with some degen (1 necro, 1 mesmer, 1 crip ranger). Though i hope they do come back, i dont think they will so much since they can't kill anything fast enough imo.

I actually think the metagame is gonna stay as it is, until Nightfall. I think everything has been tested, and only a few things stand out. Maybe new strategies will change the game, and not the skillsets...

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 07, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The number 1 mistake people make when facing these builds: thinking that you have to try to exploit their 'weak' defense. Racing a pressure build with any sort of balanced just doesnt work: you may get a couple of the first kills but sooner or later you are going to rout. Instead, focus on playing good team defense. Throw your spikes at the thumpers. Kite + snare like crazy. Make sure you are still dealing good damage, tho. If you can live long enough, their 'weak' defense will exploit itself. (i.e., their monks will run out of energy if the battle goes long, since their team has little/no mitigation and your damage will eventually take its toll)

This really depends on how the enemy team and your own offense is set up. If you're geared to get kills primarily through adrenal spike (ie: eles at the flagstand, Shatter Enchantment), then it might be a better idea to play defensively. If you're relying on pressure to get kills but aren't all-out offense yourself then you do need to play offensively against this kind of team.

A lot of it also comes down to what they're running. Cripshot and Melandru's rangers are crappy targets because they all run Distortion. You're not going to break a defense by hitting warriors. Thumpers are a little better targets if the other team is running one, but if you consistently focus all your offense on the same target you'll lose a lot of damage efficency due to prots. If they're running multiple thumpers, sure, you can pressure the crap out of their offense. That isn't always feasable though.

The other biggest mistake I've seen people make against these teams is flag control. Basically, you have to give their flagging a problem or they will give you one. Slow them down, double-run when necessary, and even send forces to kill their flagger. Otherwise they'll be free to get ahead of you and then slow your flag down with a ranger or warrior. Builds like this tend to have a lot of independent characters and splits, which can put them in a position to boost if you aren't careful. When we fought KGYU our biggest mistake was not keeping proper control of the flagstand, and we ultimately paid for it.

As far as hex-heavy - I think it's a nice counter to the current metagame, but I can't see it becoming the metagame because it's so easy to sub in the counters without losing your original build. It's typically possible to power through hex-heavy with a single Convert or Expel, especially if your team is disrupting the progress of their hexing. If hex-heavy becomes popular it's simply a matter of subbing in a couple skill counters to whatever build you're already running. Not a great basis for a metagame, IMHO.

Patrograd · Aug 07, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Not a great basis for a metagame, IMHO.

I agree. Its only really viable in a hex light meta. Almost an "anti" meta build in some ways. At the moment the meta appears to be still relatively hex light for the most part.

Quote:

And the first thing i think about when i hear anti-hex is Natures Renewal.

Quite a bit of NR about in our part of the ladder at the moment

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 07, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I really like the Necro Raiders build that they are running.

1 N/W, 1 Migrane mes, 1 Hex Necro, 1 Blind Flash Ele, 1 Dom Mes, 2 Boon Prots, and 1 Illusion Runner. Some spikes they pull off are wicked.

Neo-LD · Aug 07, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

This really depends on how the enemy team and your own offense is set up. If you're geared to get kills primarily through adrenal spike (ie: eles at the flagstand, Shatter Enchantment), then it might be a better idea to play defensively. If you're relying on pressure to get kills but aren't all-out offense yourself then you do need to play offensively against this kind of team.

A lot of it also comes down to what they're running. Cripshot and Melandru's rangers are crappy targets because they all run Distortion. You're not going to break a defense by hitting warriors. Thumpers are a little better targets if the other team is running one, but if you consistently focus all your offense on the same target you'll lose a lot of damage efficency due to prots. If they're running multiple thumpers, sure, you can pressure the crap out of their offense. That isn't always feasable though.

When I say to play good team defense, I do not mean for warriors to mash their heads into other warriors, thats just dumb. If the enemy team has any casters at all (snare eles, tainted necs, dom mesmers, and smiters are common) those are excellent things for warriors to hit. Your warriors should always be looking for targets to get good damage from, but against such intense offense everyone else needs to be thinking defensively. That means your eles snare warriors, not targets. Your mesmers dominate midliners, not monks. Your team spikes thumpers and frenzying warriors, not monks. Your smiter starts smiting defensivly if need be. Etc etc.

Like I said earlier, their monks will eventually run out of energy. Your team must do everything in their power to make sure the battle lasts that long. GSS has been running a sort of pressure / adrenspike lately; we went 5-1 against these kinds of builds (that is, only counting matches against thumpers & co.) yesterday using exactly this method. (Our loss was pretty bad, against iQ, the only guild which was able to overwhelm us before we could start wearing them down) but every other team gave us everything they had for about 5-10 minutes and then broke.

Keep your eyes open on team-iq, we have a hot article on exactly this subject coming your way.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 07, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I think it's just that we've fought different varients of the same build. The one I've fought most often has two Distortion rangers and three warriors, which makes monks the only soft target to pressure unless there happens to be a thumper.

I agree with you completely that if there's offensive casters they should be targeted before the monks. That's always true when playing pressure, regardless of what you're against. Damage is damage, and damage on a midline offensive caster is much more disruptive than damage to the backline, unless the opposition is about to break.

tomcruisejr · Aug 07, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

future will still be melee centric. watch out for the scythe.

bout counters vs heavy melee based, 1 good water hexer can do.

glenn_rolfe · Aug 08, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

the current meta is defenitely offensive, front on builds. Even the solo assassin gank seems to be fading out for teams just trying to smash through the other at the stand. With blends of taint, melandru's, poison, thumpers, warriors, smite, etc.

Will anyone dare come out with a hex build that isn't sb/ri or foc spike.....i'm not sure. Given the popularity of blessed light now, you really have to have a lot of hexes or none at all (barring diversion/shame).

Would definitely like to see a shift to mobile splits or finesse builds.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 08, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Would definitely like to see a shift to mobile splits or finesse builds.

What exactly is a 'finesse build'?

Novita · Aug 08, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Thumpers and sword bulls charge warriors+degen are the metagame, well and maybe melee pressure with light hex.

Counters against thumpers besides warrior hate: stability, balanced stance, more warrior hate... if you can fit in a balanced build of course! I would try to shutdown the necro too cause when pets/players die, death magic wins the game.

Phelann · Aug 08, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

future will still be melee centric. watch out for the scythe.

bout counters vs heavy melee based, 1 good water hexer can do.

This is incorrect unfortunately, with the huge amount of mellee (plus how many bring ranger interupts) a single water ele as defense wont cut it.

One perfect example of the current metagame and a perfect example of a COUNTER to it is the CI build. Its 3 warriors, 1 illusion hexer, 1 necro hexer, 2 monks, 1 runner. Its wonderful right now because you have the 3 warriors everyone loves plus more degen pressure, but at the same time you have a crapload of tank hate from the hex spam, and with everyone running so many tanks thats just wonderful. They've been whiping the floor with most thumper teams, and when they need to split they do it really well, since hexers really are amazing npc killers (their illusion mesmer is a beast at guard ruining). I love it~

Phelann · Aug 08, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Also this might be useful for the topic: we used to run barely any defense in our builds, just a little bit on the ele. we now run double aegis, blind, mellee ward, and ice snares.