Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 14, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

The one place that smiting really becomes imbalanced is VoD. Healing your GL while killing the enemy GL AND nuking the other team's warriors at the same time for next to no energy is ridiculous (GG). Though I'd be curious to know if you guys ever lost a match after the GLs met in the middle.

Well, smites' ideal situation is dealing with a lot of people focus-firing one target. The smiting damage on warriors adds up quickly, and boon prots synergize with AoE well enough that the heals are basically free. This is true no matter how many smiters you have in your build, and it's one of the reasons I feel single smiters in balanced builds are very strong.

I think in the match we had, you guys should have spent your time pressuring our monks rather than trying to focus our GL. Triple smite is vulnerable to spread damage and pressure, so enough offense on our monks might have broken us. Once the monks were down you guys could have dropped the lord fairly quickly.

I will say that a lot of our strategy was based around making it to the 35 minute mark though. Just about any split build is going to be weaker in an 8v8 fight, while triple smite excells at 8v8.

We did lose a match the other night after the lords came out (and got -25 for it), but in fairness our monk had error-7ed 5 minutes in. I don't remember a lot of other matches that went the distance offhand - we've lost in some cases, but usually its been because we're heavily DPed or have a major NPC disadvantage. Regardless of whether the lords are out or not, beating triple smite at the flagstand requires pressuring their monks very quickly, which a lot of builds and players just aren't prepared to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

I don't think the build is a gimmick. It is, however, easier to run than most builds. The huge defense is (practically) impossible for some builds to crack whatsoever in a straight-on fight.

I wouldn't say there's a huge defense (unless your offense involves focusing pressure on one target.) The lack of more than one boon prot actually leaves us with a lot of vulnerabilities. Many teams can't hold up at the flagstand long enough to exploit those vulnerabilities though, and that's the real strength of the build - the best defense is a good offense.

Anyway, good match the other day and hope we can face you guys again in the future.

Neo-LD · Aug 14, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I would honestly say that a decent part of that that win/loss ratio was player skill, having guested for them. However yes, you are right, a part of that is down to how powerfull triple smite is. Imbalanced? No way, it is simply a good build. About as powerfull (if not less so) as every other build used by top guilds out there. I would also attribute a lot of their recent ladder success to the fact that they actually settled with one build, and got good at running it. Something that suited them as a guild, and gave them the quick games they needed. Putting it all down to the build being imbalanced is just silly.

JR has it right. Firstly, you have to believe that the players of a guild will improve over the course of 6 months. Second, NUKE has found a build that suits their style, and has become very proficient at running it. Third, Triple Smite is obviously a powerful build. The difference between their win rate using balanced and win rate using T-smite is too big to completely shrug off as resultant from improvement. But its most decidedly not the only, and probably not even the biggest, contributing factor.

Quote:

They have improved in leaps and bounds from where they were back in February.

Hell yes they have. I recall a conversation I had with JR several months ago:

Me: Hey JR, want to guest?
JR: Cant, already guesting.
Me: Aww. With who?
JR: NUKE
Me: Who the hell is that?
JR: Squidget's guild.
Me: Oh. I've never heard of them before...
JR: You will.

Now, since then I have lost to NUKE 3 times, so its safe to say Ive 'heard of them'.

(2 of those losses were resultant from monk err7, but I am loathe for excuses, NUKE was playing well regardless). Monking against them 3 times, I am in a safe position to say that they (or at least their offense) has improved greatly over the past few months. I am also in a safe position to say that they are a vastly better guild when playing T-smite than with something more 'traditional', since in one of those 3 games they were using something kinda balanced and they were a much easier fight.

[rant on]

Well, some people may take offense that they are so much better at T-smite than a balanced build, but the truth is that unless they go to a seasonal tourney it wont matter. Getting riled up at NUKE for running T-smite is like getting mad at some RTS player for rushing you. You can say 'if you would have just teched like all the other good players, you wouldnt have won," all you like, but the fact o fthe matter is, he did rush you, and he won, get over it. So the next time you get rolled by T-smite, think about what mistakes you made, not what bad players they 'obviously' were. Oh, and also contemplate how you let yourself get rolled by a gimmick. Proper play will render it no more dangerous, if not less so, than any other top build.

So in summation:

1. NUKE has improved, just as (hopefully) every other pvp guild did over the course of several months.
2. They are running a powerful build, which also happens to be a gimmick
3. Get over it.

[/rant off]

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Did I ever say it wasn't a gimmick?

I thought so, and you just compaired NUKES build to R-Spike, so you agree with me that its a gimmik?

But you also think its not IBMA, which I think theres no evidence to support that its ballanced, unless NUKE can return to ballanced builds and maintain their rank, or win %, and we all know they can't do either.

Its a case of the build deciding who wins before the match starts. Its not as bad as SBRI was, but its bad enough to be nerfed hard.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 14, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Well, some people may take offense that they are so much better at T-smite than a balanced build, but the truth is that unless they go to a seasonal tourney it wont matter. Getting riled up at NUKE for running T-smite is like getting mad at some RTS player for rushing you. You can say 'if you would have just teched like all the other good players, you wouldnt have won," all you like, but the fact o fthe matter is, he did rush you, and he won, get over it. So the next time you get rolled by T-smite, think about what mistakes you made, not what bad players they 'obviously' were. Oh, and also contemplate how you let yourself get rolled by a gimmick. Proper play will render it no more dangerous, if not less so, than any other top build.

Quoted for absolute undeniable truth.

Shoot, I've been trying to get that point across for pages now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overclocked

Its a case of the build deciding who wins before the match starts. Its not as bad as SBRI was, but its bad enough to be nerfed hard.

Do tell me what build 'decides' to win against Triple Smite. The only hard counter I can think of is NR/Tranq (which was metagamed specifically as a smite counter) and we beat a top 100 NR/Tranq the other night. The teams that have beaten us consistently have done so through smart play and agressiveness, not any specific build they had in common.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Do tell me what build 'decides' to win against Triple Smite. The only hard counter I can think of is NR/Tranq (which was metagamed specifically as a smite counter) and we beat a top 100 NR/Tranq the other night.

yes u prove my point futher, the counters in the game specific to smite, are ineffectual. What i meant by decides, is that before the match starts, by virtue of your choice to run an IMBA build, you will win. Much like SBRI Teams who made top 50 with 90% win ratios almost over night after being sub par top 500 teams for months and months.

u stand there with 3 monks that do massive amounts of focused AOE, and massive amounts of healing, all at no energy cost and claim its a fair build... amazing, you know some sbri guilds said thier build was fair also.

You don't see how it seems very unlikly that you are anything but a rank 300 range team, playing a IMBA Gimmick Build. I'd love to believe you got very good over night and that tripple smite takes skill to run, but i've run it, and it dosen't take skill. Its easier then most ballanced builds, and im sorry to say if you cant win with ballanced you cant run a build that takes skill, because ballanced is all about skill.

look at how the NPC's do not run from smite, if you press some one back to the guildlord its normally a place for them to regroup and try to counter attack. It was never intended to be a perfect little cubby for 3 wars with unlimited AOE and HEALING to bash around in happy like a pig in shit. Every map you enter gives you this advantage, and theres realy nothing else to debate... your ladder history at iQ shows how ballanced smite is and it looks identical to some SBRI guilds did last season.

You want everyone to believe its 100% your skill and tallent and hard work, but you haven't shown that any of that is true let alone likely.
Seriously, why did you start this thread but to brag, and gain respect all at once?

Yes smite is a gimick, yes its IMBA, good for you for running it winning is fun, just don't make glory posts about how its all your 1337 skill, and good luck with that build once they nerf it.

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I'm afraid your arguments are nothing but weak, overclocked. I don't know of any serious GvG player who would agree with you. As such your attitude leads me to enquire as to what guild you are in, to merit such a well informed opinion?

Neo-LD · Aug 14, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Wow someone is bitter.

Smiters dont provide *that much* extra defense. All they do in terms of healing is throw Divine Favor around that hits for < 40 hp per spell. Honestly I would be more worried about their Aegis chain. I would venture to guess that all 3 smiters together provide about asmuch defense as a second dedicated monk would.

Who do smiters cast on? Warriors. If that is the case, the healing the warriors get should be irrelevent unless you are being retarded and trying to kill them. As long as you pressure smiters, you are doing ok. The minute they start smiting defensively, you have taken your first step to turning the tide and pushing back.

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

(missed this one)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

The one place that smiting really becomes imbalanced is VoD. Healing your GL while killing the enemy GL AND nuking the other team's warriors at the same time for next to no energy is ridiculous (GG). Though I'd be curious to know if you guys ever lost a match after the GLs met in the middle.

In a situation where the other team is stood around doing nothing, sure. Triple Smite lacks any kind of shut-down (other than just sticking weapons in peoples faces), leaving the other team free to go about their business. To go back to my KGYU example, watch how they push hard to Distracting Shot any heal parties, and the devastating effect that can have. Smite really can't do that, so your E/Mo can happily pump out the heals all day. Smite also lacks any kind of utility defense and damage mitigation such as Wards, (mostly) Aegis, B-Flash (except on the runner).. which very much counters the fact that you have four~ monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

I don't think the build is a gimmick. It is, however, easier to run than most builds. The huge defense is (practically) impossible for some builds to crack whatsoever in a straight-on fight.

As covered, the defense isn't huge at all. Two or three monks with minimal divine/prot spec spamming Reversal and Guardian on your Warriors, how to beat? Fast target switching, and well covered spikes. Dropping a Monk in a smite build is pretty much just as easy as in a normal build, given the lack of such things as mentioned before. Not least of which the fact that you only have one dedicated healer.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I will not respond to your ad hominem, because its irrelevant.

If you can't explain how nuke goes from meodicre with ballance and high end with tripple smite over night, other then to say they instantly became skilled then i think i have said enough.

Maybe you care to inform me on the guild lord area, if i am so miss informed.

I can't believe im trying to help you make a logical arguemnt, oh the irony.

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

I will not respond to your ad hominem, because its irrelevant.

If you can't explain how nuke goes from meodicre with ballance and high end with tripple smite over night, other then to say they instantly became skilled then i think i have said enough.

Maybe you care to inform me on the guild lord area, if i am so miss informed.

I can't believe im trying to help you make a logical arguemnt, oh the irony.

You are arguing about the skill of a guild that you have never even observed, with someone who has played with them, against them, has spectated them, and yet has no ties with the guild as to be biased. You can't really get much more ridiculous.

I think your reluctance to reveal your guild says more than I had intended you to answer, also.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

more ad hominem

Jagan Vastary · Aug 14, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

If you can't explain how nuke goes from meodicre with ballance and high end with tripple smite over night, other then to say they instantly became skilled then i think i have said enough.

Read these.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

A lot of teams simply don't have the time to play enough to stay up on the ladder with a balanced build. In the time it takes to have 4 VoD wins with a 'balanced' build against teams with rits, you could have 7 wins and 2 losses with triple smite. It is a more efficient way of farming rating that forces a lot of people into that style of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not that they would be the rank that they are now without triple smite, but that simply comes down to the amount you can play as I covered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I would also attribute a lot of their recent ladder success to the fact that they actually settled with one build, and got good at running it. Something that suited them as a guild, and gave them the quick games they needed.

It was said that NUKE didn't have all the time in the world to play, so a build designed for quick matches is going to allow them to play more games. This is especially true when you consider that when this season began many teams were running highly defensive teams with rits.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

IMHO, you will probably learn a lot more playing against top teams than rank 200 teams, regardless of your build.

Its great when you don't even have to argue, because all the arguments have been made already.

And:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

To finish this post on a good note, JR is right.

Phelann · Aug 14, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

If you can't explain how nuke goes from meodicre with ballance and high end with tripple smite over night, other then to say they instantly became skilled then i think i have said enough.

I think you're an idiot overclocked but I would like JR to address this point.

kryshnysh · Aug 14, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

I will not respond to your ad hominem, because its irrelevant.

If you can't explain how nuke goes from meodicre with ballance and high end with tripple smite over night, other then to say they instantly became skilled then i think i have said enough.

The ad hominem is relevant. Perhaps you missed that he said his own personal experience he has not found it to be IMBA. Your own statements are even less supported. Providing a guild MIGHT go a bit towards providing support, your not doing so gives you no support for your claims that Triple Smite is as IMBA as SBRI, Spirit Spam, etc. You make analogies, it just as IMBA as SBRI, but nowhere explain anything outside of the claim on the lord's area do you go any farther.

The point on the lord's room to me is quite separate from a claim on total imbalance of a build. If a build is only imbalanced in the lord's chamber, maybe you shouldn't let that build get there.... and since its not imbalanced outside that area, its easy to handle.

The explanation how Nuke went from mediocre to top 100 has been provided numerous times.

When it comes down to it, a claim of imbalance either needs to be supported with detailed arguments, its imbalanced because the damage is twice that of a warriors and has Area of Effect, or with lots of experience playing with and against. Stating that something is imbalanced with nothing but analogies is flawed, I could say that 8 healing monks is imbalanced just like SBRI, and everyone would laugh at me, because with nothing more my argument is completely unsupported. This is how your claim reads at the moment.

Extreme Days · Aug 14, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

IMO It is a crutch, because even if they were good at ballanced, they were not able to play ballanced well enough to be that high on the ladder. I guess we will disagree, but how we end up with such different views?

I can only assume you must think that tripple smite is not composed IMBA skill combos/gameplay issues.

ex) expertise and ib, zellots and divine favor, pet DP and necros & smite aoe and body blocking chaos with pets on small badly designed maps.

NUKE seem to have been a 50% win average from feb. through july, and then using tripple smite (?) have gone to 90% wins avg through August. http://www.team-iq.net/forums/ladder...E&territory=Am

I don't intend to be mean, not at all, im just trying to point out that 50% win ratio with ballanced is not consistant with being very skilled, and a 40% increase in win ratio from a build change seems to support the arguement that the tripple smite build is IMBA. they also achived 250 more rating then they have ever had before, omg pwn. I think it's cool that NUKE was smart enough to run a build that wins 90% of the time, but you guys can't expect people to treat you like its not IMBA when it is.

Its the same reaction people gave to SBRI, Spirit Spam, IWAY, Ether Renewal Smite, etc...

we changed things in our gvg teams since then... back from febuary to may we had 2 gvg teams, Team 1 was 5/8 of our current gvgers we have now and team 2 was 3/8 of the current gvgers we have now. there was alot of trouble with team 2, and we did have alot of losses that did not help our rank in the ladder. there was also alot of trouble getting GvGs done in the beginning of the summer due to inactivity (about 2-3 weeks) after that we have been pretty steady in attendance for gvg's

also id have to say that the guilds knowledge of the metagame and the ladder has grown immensly since we first started gvging, we have really grown together and know eachothers playstyle. id expect if you look at any guild on the ladder that plays together long enough you will see an increase in wins and decrease in losses, its expected to happen.

Phelann · Aug 14, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Extreme Days

we changed things in our gvg teams since then... back from febuary to may we had 2 gvg teams, Team 1 was 5/8 of our current gvgers we have now and team 2 was 3/8 of the current gvgers we have now. there was alot of trouble with team 2, and we did have alot of losses that did not help our rank in the ladder. there was also alot of trouble getting GvGs done in the beginning of the summer due to inactivity (about 2-3 weeks) after that we have been pretty steady in attendance for gvg's

also id have to say that the guilds knowledge of the metagame and the ladder has grown immensly since we first started gvging, we have really grown together and know eachothers playstyle. id expect if you look at any guild on the ladder that plays together long enough you will see an increase in wins and decrease in losses, its expected to happen.

Yes but it is very rare for someone to have such a HUGE jump up the ladder without some sort of gimmick.

overclocked · Aug 14, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

Yes but it is very rare for someone to have such a HUGE jump up the ladder without some sort of gimmick.

my point exactly, and JR Seems to concede that triple smite is a Gimmick, much to his credit.

I don't care to digress or defend my self aginst flames, but i will say that i said tripple smite is almost as imba as SBRI, its a good sign of the strength of some peoples possition when they have to blatently lie and say that i said its as IMBA as SBRI. Which odly enough is almost as stupid as saying that an over night 40% increase in wins has nothing to do with a IMBA build.

I also said why it is IMBA heavy focused AOE and solid healing/damage mitigation for such little energy it might as well be free, and provided an example of how IMBA it is at the guildlord area, which you can infer to mean any map with tight areas and theres plenty of maps like that.

Now why is it ballanced?

lets see, because you know the team in question, u like them , u guest with them, you think they have improved alot. Thats all great stuf and i'm happy for you and nuke, i wish more guilds would improve to the benifit of us all, but its nothing to do with the question is smite a gimmick?

the answer is yes

JR · Aug 14, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

I think you're an idiot overclocked but I would like JR to address this point.

As conceeded I think it did have a fair amount to do with the build, how could it not. When NUKE started running it Smite was still a fairly recent addition to the meta, and a lot of people didn't know how to play against it. Thus they got wins they probably wouldn't have done otherwise, confidence grew and they become more active. I'm sure if any guild can relate to a build revelation causing a rapid shot up the ladder, it would be MH. Admittedly it wasn't Triple Smite you changed to, but a simmilar situation seems to apply.

I'm not entirely sure on the numbers, I would have to ask Squidget, but I would think that GvG activity in NUKE has at least doubled since they settled into the build and raised morale with success on the ladder. It's a given that simple activity is a large influence on ladder positioning in shorter seasons.

Now I think people have pretty much largely fully adjusted to Triple Smite and how to play against it, although it is at the point (as with r-spike, SB/RI..etc) where nobody really actively counters it specifically anymore, other than general melee hate. Through all this NUKE continued to play the build, where most guilds dropped it and moved onto something else, and became very profficient with it.

Calling Triple Smite imbalanced is nothing but a sign of pure inexperience. It honestly sounds like you have been roffled a few times by Smite and don't know how to cope with it. Comparing it to SB/RI is certainly just laughable. As for tagging things with the "gimmick" title, it's not something I really hold with. I use the term loseley describing a build that is fundamentally weak... To use the analogy of a needle: Going straight at you it will just pierce right into your skin without any difficulty at all. Put up just enough resistance, as hard as it may be, and it will just bend and snap like the weakest of twigs. Strange analogy, but it works for me. As such, no, I don't really consider smite a gimmick. It has gimmicky elements, but I wouldn't want to tag it with something that sounds quite so damning.

I am pretty much going to ignore any further idiocy from a certain participant in this thread.

Phelann · Aug 14, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

makes sense to me!

Man With No Name · Aug 14, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Since JR can't get through - in situations like this - it's time to impart the absolute, raw genius of Blackace...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

All this nonsense about "gimmick" and "balanced" builds needs to be done with. A build is a build, and running a "balanced" build over "omg newb gimmick" builds is something stupid people came up with to get over there lack of skill.

So what if you lose to a gimmick build, by now it should be obvious how the ladder works. The way you "win" the ladder is by playing the odds, not by playing the "build vs build" game(up to a certain point). If you run a build [A] that can beat every other build except it's counter [b] you run [A] as much as possible. Why? Because if only [b] can beat ou and it's run only once every 10 games, then you run [A] anyway-because you are playing the odds.

Once [b] becomes prominent in the metagame, you stop running [A] and run the counter to [b] so that you are once again, playing the odds. Hi, and welcome to Poker 101

And if that's not enough...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Why do people continue to think that "balanced" builds should have any chance whatsoever of beating builds that are designed to take advanatge of one or two areas? The game never has and never will work that way. Seriously, think about it...you bring answers to so many strategies in your build and you dont have the tools to push the other team around when the time comes.

The moral of the story ? Learn2ladder