Curse

JR · Aug 15, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

makes sense to me!

Excellent.

Just to clarify what I said before involving the caster spike guild:

I believe there are guilds that use certain 'gimmicky' (I hate that word) builds as a crutch to reach (and far more rarely maintain) a high standing on the ladder. Once they stop getting wins (i.e. they reach a point in the ladder where he competition simply out plays them, or the metagame shifts against them) they crash back down.

Then there are guilds such as NUKE and MH that find a build that suits them and use it as a crutch to help them improve as a guild, through that reaching higher ranks. As Squidget said, you obviously have the ability learn a lot more fighting higher ranked guilds.

The difference between the two I suppose is raw talent, the ability to learn, and how two dimensional the build you are running is. If you are running something extremely shallow like caster spike you aren't likely to learn much. If you are running a 'toolbox' balanced build as MH started out with (courtesy of Te

) then you have the ability to learn a lot more, although it will be slower progress to begin with, given the complexity of picking up such a build. I think NUKE picked up something in a happy middle ground, that gave them a decent ability to actually learn, but also the quick games and initial success and through that motivation that they needed. This was certainly no bad decision on their part.

Whilst I agree with Blackace on his hating of build elitism, I do think for a guild that is starting out and looking to learn the ins and outs of GvG it is worth discriminating against shallow builds that can only teach you a very limited amount. There is also the issue of experience with 'toolbox' builds making you far more flexible when it comes to tournament play. EvIL is the prime example, having never seriously deviated away from a 'balanced' build they are extremely strong in tournament play because it is simply hard to counter them. If you get to play offs purely on the back of something like the Thumper/Death Necro FoTM then you can be sure that the other team will be packing a Ward of Stability, Extinguish or Tainted and maybe even corpse controll. Not that it is neccasarily wrong to want to ladder farm, as covered earlier; given time restraints on guilds with people in school/jobs etc it can be the only way to keep up with others that apparently have far more spare time on their hands. However you really have to decide where your priorities lie, when you weigh that against simply improving as players and desire for success in tournament play.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 15, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

JR wins this thread.

I seriously have nothing more to say.

Sir Thomas Tew · Aug 20, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

So, this thread has peaked my interest and I enjoyed reading it. There are some great points on both sides. What professions ( i assume 3 smiting monks, 3 warriors, 2 healers?) and what skills are used to make this build successful?

Thanks in advance

Farin · Aug 20, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

The normal triple smite runs 3 Thumpers, 3 Smiters, 1 Boon Prot, E/Mo Water runner.

I think Nuke runs the same with the only difference being warriors instead of thumpers. I think 1 of each weapon but I'm not sure about that.

Neo-LD · Aug 20, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

I think Nuke runs the same with the only difference being warriors instead of thumpers. I think 1 of each weapon but I'm not sure about that.

1 axe and 2 dragon slash swords. All with gale.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 20, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Almost. The two dragon slashers have Gale, while the axe's bar has Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, Prot Strike, Wild Blow and no frenzy. He's mainly used for disrupting specific characters and helping to deal with gank forces back at the base. We switched the water runner to an air guy with Deep Freeze too, because he was getting ganked a lot by rangers and Bull's Charge guys. Our smiters were standard smiter bars with two Aegis and two draws, one Ward Against Foes, and one Smite Hex.

We've switched off triple smite recently (doesn't work as well in a split metagame), but we'll definitely keep it on our toolbox as something we can do well. Played right it's a strong build, and I'm very glad we ran it.

stueyman2099 · Aug 21, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Triple smite is also completley trashed by Well of Profane

On the other side of things, we're now running a build courtesy of Te and loving it

JR · Aug 21, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

On the other side of things, we're now running a build courtesy of Te and loving it

Otherwise known as "Mostly Harmlessway". Muhaha.

kitiara · Aug 21, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Go Mostly Harmless you guys rock for inventing the "Mostly Harmlessway" and go Te for inviting such a fun build to play

deadmonkey4u · Aug 22, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

For me, Im in the boat that triple smite is a "gimmick" but not smite itself. I personally view it as something similiar to the 4 thump taint build, d/mo way, or the halls equivalent (something like iway b-spike).

Most builds that are overplayed (other then balance) are a gimmick to me although some builds are more of a gimmick then others like the ones mentioned above.

High ranked guilds or high ranked players are simply not respected much by the general public if they run something akin to triple smite, iway, b-spike, the 4thump with a taint build, or the d/mo way spearman ran.

Personally id rather play a poorer guild rank balance then one of those builds just as I would rather take a r6 whose fame came from balance over a r9+ that got almost all their fame from iway/bloodspike.

In the end it comes down to personal preference. I believe the general public would call triple smite a gimmick as would I, but I know thats not the case with everyone. I see it as a decent tool to farm some rank and faction as its quick but I simply don't respect playing something like that.

Also Agree with JR's comments about it

kitiara · Aug 22, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadmonkey4u

For me, Im in the boat that triple smite is a "gimmick" but not smite itself. I personally view it as something similiar to the 4 thump taint build, d/mo way, or the halls equivalent (something like iway b-spike).

Most builds that are overplayed (other then balance) are a gimmick to me although some builds are more of a gimmick then others like the ones mentioned above.

High ranked guilds or high ranked players are simply not respected much by the general public if they run something akin to triple smite, iway, b-spike, the 4thump with a taint build, or the d/mo way spearman ran.

Personally id rather play a poorer guild rank balance then one of those builds just as I would rather take a r6 whose fame came from balance over a r9+ that got almost all their fame from iway/bloodspike

wow can you say scrub for the win. No offence to you but what i got from that was I'd rather do something that im not good at because i wont get flamed for it. About gimmicks sure they excist and they will be run and if your above running them then be sure you beat them every time you play them. Now if you hate the build because you cant beat and you call others noobs who cant do anything but run gimmick your a scrub. Why because at the end of the day they are still better then you even if they ran gimmick.

Now i dont think triple smite is a gimmick, hell i dont think gimmicks exsist but thats just me. I think if its part of the game then i shouldnt bitch about it, i should beat it or figure how to then do it.

Neo-LD · Aug 22, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Lets not go that far. I dont think you can argue that T-smite is not a gimmick; it clearly has 'gimmicky elements:'

T-smite is considerably stronger or weaker based off what the enemy team has brought, whereas more balanced builds maintain relatively equal strength against all opponents. T-smite is also counterable via tactics, but this is the case with all builds. T-smite also features an end-all solution to all problems: mash more. That simplicity is usually the thing that annoys most T-smite haters. Obviously, some T-smite teams are better than others because of their skill and experience and NUKE became better at T-smite than most others that tried. However, the fact remains that all T-smite has is threats; it has no answers. T-smite is considerabely stronger given the element of surprise associated with the ladder, and does not seem to work well in tournament play. Most people share the sentiment that if they lose to T-smite, they do not feel like they have lost to good players, the have lost to a build. All of these are common gimmicky elements that are enough to include T-smite in that class.

However, the argument that works is as follows:

It doesnt matter whether T-smite is a gimmick or not. It doesnt matter whether you lost to a build or lost to players. It doesnt matter how much skill was required to win a particular game. It doesnt matter how many fancy tactics were used. All that really matters is that someone won, and someone lost. Gimmick or not, its part of the game, and its perfectly counterable - be ready for it and you wont be stuck crying and complaining after the match.

Refusing to play gimmicks like T-smite is like refusing to rush in an RTS or refusing to play goblins in MtG. All you are doing is denying yourself a perfectly capable, powerful, and legitimate strategy and labelling yourself as a scrub.

deadmonkey4u · Aug 22, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitiara

wow can you say scrub for the win. No offence to you but what i got from that was I'd rather do something that im not good at because i wont get flamed for it. About gimmicks sure they excist and they will be run and if your above running them then be sure you beat them every time you play them. Now if you hate the build because you cant beat and you call others noobs who cant do anything but run gimmick your a scrub. Why because at the end of the day they are still better then you even if they ran gimmick.

Now i dont think triple smite is a gimmick, hell i dont think gimmicks exsist but thats just me. I think if its part of the game then i shouldnt bitch about it, i should beat it or figure how to then do it.

Lets see. Gimmicks exist and most players have ran them b4 (including me). I don't know where you got I don't run it because i won't get flamed at from but yes iv ran gimmicks b4 im sure everyone has. And beating gimmicks? iv beaten plenty of them in the top 100 but my point is as stated I have less respect for gimmicks then balance and if theirs anything I would complain about it would be more of playing against it repeatedly.

If your gunna go flame and call people scrubs because I have less respect for gimmicks then go for it, but I hold my point and opinions

As for the mtg iv played my share got a halfway decent 1800+ DCI rating and of course some build iv played are gimmicks. I would RATHER play a balance or something unique then a gimmick does not = I refuse to play gimmicks.

If I have a preference to play and respect balance greater = im a scrub then i guess im a scrub

kitiara · Aug 22, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

First of all Neo i should of said i dont think there is such thing as gimicks and that includes T-smite not "Now i dont think triple smite is a gimmick, hell i dont think gimmicks exsist but thats just me.". Sorry for the confusion i wasnt trying to argue it one way or the other.

Second deadmonkey4u i called you a scrub because you said "Personally id rather play a poorer guild rank balance then one of those builds just as I would rather take a r6 whose fame came from balance over a r9+ that got almost all their fame from iway/bloodspike". Now you'd rather be on the poorer team aka the team more likly to lose and your refering to rank like it matters. It doesnt matter how you go your rank because like Neo said "It doesnt matter whether T-smite is a gimmick or not. It doesnt matter whether you lost to a build or lost to players. It doesnt matter how much skill was required to win a particular game. It doesnt matter how many fancy tactics were used. All that really matters is that someone won, and someone lost." Same thing goes for rank it doesnt matter how you got it. It matters that you have it or not, but then again rank means nothing

ps i dont know how to quote properly Kit = noob at using forms *sad face*

deadmonkey4u · Aug 22, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

This is where we differ. Winning or losing or how much fame you have isn't all I play this game for. I play games for enjoyability. What I enjoy the most is playing a gvg match with two balanced teams and being able to see the different playstyle approaches and tactics the two team uses. The skills and tactics used that don't matter to some people are actually what I play this game for maybe as much as winning or losing which is probably why I have a preference over running certain builds.

ex: could have farmed loads of fame playing with mordrid knight but I don't enjoy playing bloodspike. I play this game to enjoy it and farming fame rank/pve grind is just not my style. I play the game for the unique and interesting skills/tactics used that sometimes may or may not work.

Of course thats different from person to person. If enjoying the game means having the most gold, fame, or a high rank is what you enjoy then go for it. Play the metagame do whatever you can to win.

I just ask that you don't call people noobs and scrubs because my view is different. For me having fun is hanging out with friends on vent and trying crazy stuff as well as skills/tactics employed and how to modify playing style/skills in a balance to fight the meta

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 22, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

more balanced builds maintain relatively equal strength against all opponents.

I haven't found this to be true at all. While a balanced build probably has the tools to run a couple different types of offense and play a lot of tricks, most balanced builds are also weak or strong against certain types of build.

For example, the balanced build we've been running (thanks Te!) has a lot of 'skirmish' characters who can win battles away from the group (Crip Anguish mesmers, cripshots, assassins, ect). As such, when we meet a team that doesn't have many skirmish characters or can't afford to send people off, we do a lot better. However, the build is light on removal and has no Expel or Convert, so facing a hex-heavy team put us at a serious disadvantage when we were forced to fight 8v8.

Likewise, if your balanced build relies on an adrenal spike to get your first few kills (ie: eles at the flagstand, ect), Ritualists are going to screw you up pretty badly.

You don't get the same kinds of 'hard' counters (ie: Shields Up vs Ranger Spike), but most every balanced build has things it will do better or worse against.

overclocked · Aug 22, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Prediction: NUKE will continue to play gimmick builds, when they lose with "ballanced."

deadmonkey4u · Aug 22, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I haven't found this to be true at all. While a balanced build probably has the tools to run a couple different types of offense and play a lot of tricks, most balanced builds are also weak or strong against certain types of build.

Agreed Balance doesn't mean 2 war 2 mez 2 monks 2 emo or something like that. While I believe balance is a bit more versatile theirs still alot of different balanced builds out their that are weak or strong against certain builds.

These different types of offense and tricks is why I love playing this game

kitiara · Aug 22, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

overclocked may i ask you where this prediction is drawn from and what guild are you in?

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 22, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Prediction: NUKE will continue to play gimmick builds, when they lose with "ballanced."

O rly??

That was our second night running balanced, on sunday before the ladder closed. GG.

Edit: No disrespect meant to OUT by this. They played well and it was a good fight. Only trying to demonstrate that NUKE can still play effectively without triple smite.