Curse

JR · Aug 06, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

It has always seemed to me that one of the hardest splits to counter is 6/2, with a warrior and cripshot ranger going off on a base gank. Very difficult to react to that properly with most standard builds

Not sure on that; both being physical damage classes you know that you can send back a Blindbot and something straight off. Something like a Water Ele with Blinding Flash and a Warrior is an equally good counter if played intelligently.

Things get a whole lot more difficult when you introduce something like an Empathic Removal Warrior with the Cripshot, who can actually keep them both fairly clean. That is a split I have been wanting to try for a while, and I believe would be very hard to counter with just two characters.

overclocked · Aug 06, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

whats the empathic removal war bar?

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 06, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

whats the empathic removal war bar?

For a ganker, I'm a fan of...

-Sever Artery
-Galrath Slash
-Final Thrust
-"Shields Up!"
-Healing Signet
-Empathic Removal
-Sprint
-Res Sig/Frenzy

Up to you whether you want to run res sigs on your gankers. I find they can be pretty helpful for recovering when you take the occasional death.

JR · Aug 06, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

For a ganker, I'm a fan of...

-Sever Artery
-Galrath Slash
-Final Thrust
-"Shields Up!"
-Healing Signet
-Empathic Removal
-Sprint
-Res Sig/Frenzy

Up to you whether you want to run res sigs on your gankers. I find they can be pretty helpful for recovering when you take the occasional death.

For a set ganker I would agree (not too sure about lack of gash, but meh), but for a character that would be flexible at either splitting OR playing with the stand team I would have to go with something much more standard like this:

Epathic Gank
Warrior/Monk

Strength: 7 (6+1)
Swordsmanship: 14 (12+2)
Tactics: 12 (11+1)

- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
- Gash (Swordsmanship)
- Final Thrust (Swordsmanship)
- Sprint (Strength)
- Empathic Removal [Elite] (Monk other)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Resurrection Signet ()

The lack of "Shields Up!" is a bit of a pain, I must admit. I have played about with the idea of putting that on the ranger, but lack of slots makes me a bit hesitant. I really don't think you can feasibly drop anything else from the Warriors bar to take it though.

overclocked · Aug 06, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Thanks your quick =)

Do you run minor instead of superior on all the wars in a 6/2 or just the ganker?

edit what do you think about this i saw one in gvg

mes ganker

Mesmer/Monk
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 7 (6+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9 (8+1)
Illusion Magic: 13 (11+2)
Healing Prayers: 10

Leech Signet (Inspiration Magic)
Crippling Anguish [Elite] (Illusion Magic)
Conjure Phantasm (Illusion Magic)
Images of Remorse (Illusion Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Healing Breeze (Healing Prayers)
Illusion of Haste (Illusion Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)

Patrograd · Aug 07, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not sure on that; both being physical damage classes you know that you can send back a Blindbot and something straight off. Something like a Water Ele with Blinding Flash and a Warrior is an equally good counter if played intelligently.

Things get a whole lot more difficult when you introduce something like an Empathic Removal Warrior with the Cripshot, who can actually keep them both fairly clean. That is a split I have been wanting to try for a while, and I believe would be very hard to counter with just two characters.

I agree the empathic guy would be harder to counter, I guess I was trying to get at that 6/2 split generally where both monks are left at the stand is difficult to counter strategically, and most people that do this send a warrior and a cripshot.

Usually your blindbot is your flag runner, Not always but usually, and if he is fighting the gank he isnt running flags. On his own you are left with something of an impasse - he will need some support, so you also have to send a warrior, and still the flag isnt being run, so you also have to have someone else run the flag who may not have the skills to be a flag runner leaving you behind in the flag race..

They will be built for this particular split, and you might not be, which makes the stand battle arguably in their favour.

In either event, it needs very quick and decisive action to manage this, a delay of even a few seconds can be fatal.

JR · Aug 07, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Do you run minor instead of superior on all the wars in a 6/2 or just the ganker?

If I am building a character who has a very good chance of being a split off a lot of the time I will tend to stick to minors.

+Patro: Agreed.

Innocent · Aug 10, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

JR, this is a bit offtopic, but my guild ended up picking up your "Rapid Adren Spike" build for GvG, and it's been working great for us. Do you have any specific tips regarding that build that I should be aware of? We've been doing a 5/3 off the bat, and I've found that most of the time, depending on their experience, we are able to dictate how the opposing guild plays which for me, is very exciting as a tactics caller.

JR · Aug 10, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I'll assume you are using the current version, since I updated it a week or so ago.

First off, do not hesitate. From the very first engagement you are building up to spike as often as physically possible. It doesn't matter if you don't have everything there to take down the target, the more often you spike the more pressured the other team will be, whether you kill or not.

The very second that you realise things are headed down hill at the flag stand you have two choices. One is spike down the character that is giving you the most problems; for example a Warder or Hex Necro. If you aren't confident about pulling that off, then it may be time to split.

At this point I usually send the Axe Warrior and the Cripshot into the opposing teams base through whatever backroute is available. This forces them to split against two characters that impose a definate and immediate threat to their NPCs and Flag runner. If they send back two guys to deal with you, work out if you can get them outside of NPC range and take them on. If you can't take them on, or if they send a bigger force, see how things go at the flag stand. If your team is doing better with those people away, then keep them away. Stay out of casting range, but stay a threat.

You mention a 5/3 split which is interesting. I haven't every really intended the build to played like that, but glad you have had success. A 5/3 split is also perfectly viable (I assume you are including the Flag runner, in the offensive three man split?), but definately a slightly riskier play.

I don't mind discussing this here, as it does relate to pretty much most builds and games.

X Destruction · Aug 10, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Little bit off topic but was just saying hey to Jr- cuz DPS rolled us [iSi] on tuesday >_> u had us turtled in our base for like 10 min i think it was...

Innocent · Aug 10, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I'll assume you are using the current version, since I updated it a week or so ago.

First off, do not hesitate. From the very first engagement you are building up to spike as often as physically possible. It doesn't matter if you don't have everything there to take down the target, the more often you spike the more pressured the other team will be, whether you kill or not.

The very second that you realise things are headed down hill at the flag stand you have two choices. One is spike down the character that is giving you the most problems; for example a Warder or Hex Necro. If you aren't confident about pulling that off, then it may be time to split.

At this point I usually send the Axe Warrior and the Cripshot into the opposing teams base through whatever backroute is available. This forces them to split against two characters that impose a definate and immediate threat to their NPCs and Flag runner. If they send back two guys to deal with you, work out if you can get them outside of NPC range and take them on. If you can't take them on, or if they send a bigger force, see how things go at the flag stand. If your team is doing better with those people away, then keep them away. Stay out of casting range, but stay a threat.

You mention a 5/3 split which is interesting. I haven't every really intended the build to played like that, but glad you have had success. A 5/3 split is also perfectly viable (I assume you are including the Flag runner, in the offensive three man split?), but definately a slightly riskier play.

I don't mind discussing this here, as it does relate to pretty much most builds and games.

Hehe, in the 5/3 we do this

Basically, the Axe, Crip and the Flashbot go off. It's interesting that you mention the flag runner instead of the flashbot, are there any reasons?

Like I said, as a tactician, it's exciting to be able to make their team split.

Thom · Aug 10, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

The 5/3 could be a bit quicker and more devistating against without proper response, a proper response could leave you disadvantaged in your own split.

The worst thing that can happen to a split is being shut down by fewer numbers. It isn't difficult to imagine 2v3 matchup that can be played to stalemate especially among npcs. The other half of the team is left with a 5v6 situation where the 5 is defensive and the 6 is more offensive, which could turn into a quick rout with any spiking ability.

I have the same problem in the other direction. A 4v3 and 4v5 situation leaves you similarly disadvantaged. A balanced 4 should outlast an offensive/utility 3 simply on healing. On the 4v5 it is questionable whether the the defensive half of the 5-3 will be able to break a single monk faster than the 4v3 skirmish ends.

Some teams will try a 7-1 steamroll strategy leaving a single defensive character to keep the guild lord up while the 7 go for the steam roll. Here I like the 6-2's chances of not getting steamrolled slightly more. Where a 5-3 is more likely to play this situation as a race, a 6-2 is playing to draw out the defense as long as possible until the opponent flinches at the guys dropping body guards.

I look at a 6-2 as a more conservative split which is more annoying to counter, but less deadly.

JR · Aug 11, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent

Basically, the Axe, Crip and the Flashbot go off. It's interesting that you mention the flag runner instead of the flashbot, are there any reasons?

Healing Breeze, and snares (Gale or Water) are obviously godly in a split. Also with Windborne it could keep up with the Warrior using Sprint and the Cripshot using Dodge, and also buff their speed if they are lagging behind.

duward · Aug 25, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

would an assasin be better to have in a 5/3 split or a cripshot ranger? Because i was thinking if they send in 2 people to try and block you the assasin could then run around start ganking solo npc's around the base while the 2 other try to hold the 2 defenders in a staredown

sir lockt · Aug 25, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I used to be under the impression that you had to build with the ability to do a set split, either 4/4 or 5/3 etc. I soon came to realise that splitting effectively really has nothing to do with having a pre-set split, it is simply about having enough versatile characters that you can react to anything.

If the other team sends two guys towards the back of your base, suddenly that defined 4/4 split is useless. You need to pick out a suitable counter force and react quickly, which can also give you the ability to powerplay the other team. If you have one or two very strong solo characters that can handle a split of two or three of theirs, this gives you a numerical advantage with the main party if they split or if you chose to split first.

Having such characters built in can make you a bit weaker 8 vs 8, for example a Cripshot doesn't really contribute to a spike, doesn't have the degen of an Illusion spammer, and doesn't have the additional utility of a Water Ele. None of that matters though, because when it comes to splitting a Cripshot dominates.

Really it is down to you, and your play style. Do you prefer to roll teams hard at the flagstand, but maybe flounder a bit if they split? Or do you prefer entering (sometimes long) matches of more strategical play?

QFT

A bit more to the OP...

Split a valuable tool in forcing the openings you could not fight in a normal situation. I can remember we ran a fancy triple split build on the icy map, which is excellent for that. You can drive a team crazy with it. On no other map this will work... simply there is no room...

Check your positioning, your space and your opponent. Last week we encountered some high pressure thumper team, although split is not the best normally against them, they where forcing us down in dp. We split quite fancy and drawed their offensive in our base. In the mean time we put all warrior hate in the offensive split and shut those down.

We rose from a steady 30% dp to 10% morale after we wiped the team in the base with the help of NPCs...

Against certain builds split is just very powerful...like vs spike.

In general JR- is totally correct. dedicated splits are to dependant of much situations, so flexibility of your team (so make it able to split if need) is the key.

GL with your splits!