Curse

Patrograd · Aug 19, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

For DPS numbers its approximately 10% to go from 16 to 14 in your weapon mastery of choice. The numbers will vary a bit for a lot of reasons (uncertainty on critical hit chances, weapon chosen, etc.). Spike numbers I would expect to be similar (but with no impact on the deep wound health loss) but I haven't actually bothered to crunch them.

Ok, so for the sake of argument DPS is about 2.5 less on average? With no noticeable reduction in spike ability as the spike is all about the deep wound which is unaffected?

I think this would be about what i have noticed, but I have never crunched the numbers either, will have a go tomorrow if I get the chance

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 20, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

i never use sup rune on warriors, all minors ftw... idea is to tank... and sup runes take away from it... tanks also can't get spiked down easily because of it giving them that edge of spikers... when you think about it... you are scrificing a few hp of dmg for 75 more hp, i think its well worth it.

Btw to everyone taking this seriously I'm pretty sure he is joking around. He is in a top 100 guild atm and I don't believe he would honestly have his warrior tank in Pvp.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 24, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

no. he runs cyclone axe/bonetti's/glad's defense/live vicariously/vigorous spirit. I saw it.

back on topic, I generally run a major in gvg, and a superior in Heroes ascent, since I have 3 monks. Major is an extra 35 health in gvg, and the difference between 16 and 15 isn't that noticable, but I just don't see the point in only running a minor swordmastery rune.

Patrograd · Aug 24, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

I did a small amount of testing on this the other day, not really enough time to run a proper test that would be ocnclusive, but from the little I did, Eviscerate plus executioners at 16 Axe did about 8% more damage than Eviscerate->executioners at 14 axe, it was about 20 hit points less on average IIRC

ubermancer · Aug 24, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I did a small amount of testing on this the other day, not really enough time to run a proper test that would be ocnclusive, but from the little I did, Eviscerate plus executioners at 16 Axe did about 8% more damage than Eviscerate->executioners at 14 axe, it was about 20 hit points less on average IIRC

This difference is significantly more pronounce on a Hammer. That said, I often run a 15/11/11 split.

JR · Aug 24, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

That said, I often run a 15/11/11 split.

I can think of no reason why you would want Strength that high, even the Tactics spec would be verging on the excessive if Strength wasn't so garbage.

Choosing to run a lower spec to save on the HP penalty of runes is one thing. Choosing to spec lower because you want Rush a few seconds longer is just silly.

timmyw29 · Aug 24, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I can think of no reason why you would want Strength that high

Maybe he needs the extra Strength to get a 16 second Dolyak Sig (I think that's what 11 spec gets...). Only 4 seconds of downtime = hacking, man.

I'm just kidding, though, ubermancer. No offence intended.

11 Strength does seem kinda overboard, though.

To the OP, your guild leader is more likely misinformed. The idea is to judge for yourself what you need from the character you're running. Use your noodle and think about the different break points on skills, where they have a cut-off on damage or duration etc. Spend the attribute points *smartly* that doesn't mean spend every single one and have 0 remaining, it means spend attributes as wisely as possible to maximise the effectiveness of the skills on your bar.

Random example: *These are just made up numbers with no real backup, strictly to demonstrate a point.*
Say you have 11 tactics...

If you can get 20 bonus damage from a skill by lowering tactics to 10, and raising Axe Mastery to 16, then that's probably a wise decision. The runes you need to get the attributes you want is where the decision about majors or minors or superiors comes in.

I thought this would be a good thing to say in light of all the "I use x on y because z." Give a politically correct human a fish they eat for a day, teach a politically correct human to fish they eat for a lifetime.

moriz · Aug 24, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

the use of runes and equipment is all based on personal preference. if you think you play better with a superior weapon rune, then by all means use it. you are playing the class, and you are used to playing with a superior rune. if you let someone force you to use a minor rune, you will be forced to play slightly different, and that's usually not a good thing.

with that said, it is usually a good idea to carry a minor weapon rune in you inventory, if you play a pvp char. if you get DP, then just put the rune into your headgear to counter it.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 24, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the use of runes and equipment is all based on personal preference. if you think you play better with a superior weapon rune, then by all means use it. you are playing the class, and you are used to playing with a superior rune. if you let someone force you to use a minor rune, you will be forced to play slightly different, and that's usually not a good thing.

with that said, it is usually a good idea to carry a minor weapon rune in you inventory, if you play a pvp char. if you get DP, then just put the rune into your headgear to counter it.

I think this sums up everything nicely.

additionally, I never run more than 9 in strength, and that's just to meet the req on my shield.

Dancing Blade · Aug 25, 2006, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Imo running a sup to max a weapon attribute to 16 is stupid. The little extra damage you do doesnt justify the -75 health penalty.

moriz · Aug 25, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

well, the 2.5 extra DPS you get from a superior rune adds up quick. over one minute, that's potentially 150 damage. that can easily make the difference between a kill or a near-kill. definately justifies the -75 health.

anyways, use whatever is comfortable. it's down to what you believe is best.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 25, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

well, the 2.5 extra DPS you get from a superior rune adds up quick. over one minute, that's potentially 150 damage. that can easily make the difference between a kill or a near-kill. definately justifies the -75 health.

anyways, use whatever is comfortable. it's down to what you believe is best.

this is true for pressure, for spiking, since a lof of the damage ignores armor/added onto your normal damage scores, it won't make that huge a difference. depends on your build, really.

DocHollidae · Aug 25, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Each professions serves a certain purpose. Warriors are primarily offensive chars with the ability to play defense at times. As a warrior you are almost never the first target and really only become a target when you frenzy or overextend. Sure not using a sup rune allows for longer living and more health, but you are also doing less damage which means your opponent is going to be living a little longer too. While I understand the argument made by that WM player on WoC, a similar argument could be made between flurry and frenzy in a sense. Why not just run a sup rune and flurry? Because it sucks ass and no competitive warrior would ever put flurry on their skill bar because it takes away from what they should be doing, DAMAGE!

The easiest solution is to have a PvE warrior with armor swaps, but if you had to choose go with a superior rune. If you need the extra health that much then you are either frenzying too much or just a bad warrior.

Casters, especially in the the current metagame, should try and avoid sups if possible since they are more likely targets than monks. For casters dual majors or even one major usually is enough to effectively hit all break points. Most of the time you never need more than 12 or 14 in a casters attribute line to effectively hit the break points.

kryshnysh · Aug 25, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

this is true for pressure, for spiking, since a lof of the damage ignores armor/added onto your normal damage scores, it won't make that huge a difference. depends on your build, really.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the damage reduction is roughly 10% on spikes as well as pressure. 16-14 Axe Mastery on Eviscerate is a loss of 10%. The only effect that isn't changed is the deep wound, which is unaffected by Axe Mastery, et al. Since that is typically 20% of the damage, if all of the rest comes from the warrior, the loss would be around 8%. The Deep Wound actually is unaffected by the loss in Axe Mastery, as is any non-warrior spike-assist, but all warrior damage outside of the deep wound feels a similar hit from a loss in your weapon mastery of choice.

I think Ensign has implied this multiple times, reading too much into the numbers is a bad idea. Does a Superior help you get kills? Do you perform better with or without one? The reason numbers were brought up in "Why Nuking Sucks" is because they show a huge difference. To the point where other factors can be thrown out the window as being negligible. Engisn uses numbers to justify what he is seeing, and analyze it in an attempt to learn from that, not to theorycraft straight up. 8-10% is probably not enough reason to justify one way or another, what justifies it is how well your warriors score kills and stay alive, dictating how likely you are to win.

Personally I never equip a warrior with anything but 15 (Lieutenant's Helm swap) or 16 since I find that most kills actually come from pressure or criticals on a mini-spike that happened to be enough to kill, since I never run in highly coordinated adrenal spikes (with support). If your warriors are often pressured and dying in overextension, you may be better set for running 14, or for teaching your warriors to get in situations where they die less often...

Patrograd · Aug 26, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Personally I never equip a warrior with anything but 15 (Lieutenant's Helm swap) or 16 since I find that most kills actually come from pressure or criticals on a mini-spike that happened to be enough to kill, since I never run in highly coordinated adrenal spikes (with support). If your warriors are often pressured and dying in overextension, you may be better set for running 14, or for teaching your warriors to get in situations where they die less often...

Well, it clearly depends on the build.

I have been experimenting with different setups in a standard balanced adrenaline spike build with support on the spike from 2 eles and a mesmer. In this kind of build, the difference between 14 and 16 on the weapon is pretty small to the overall spike, as the warrior's main function is to apply a deep wound in the spike and finish off those who surivve the initial burst. If the spike numbers are tight and the kills arent going through then a superior might be required, but otherwise it seems to make no real difference to the spike damage.

Someone said earlier that warriors only die when they make a mistake or it is unavoidable. Well, clearly this is the case, but for every class in Guild wars. Running a minor rune might increase the margin for error and reduce the occasions on which death is inevitable. As long as you stay with the main party then it doesnt make alot of odds, you might as well run a superior and do the extra damage, but in split my experience would be that the minor makes you much, much stronger.

As for warriors not being the targets, I dont agree that this is the case at all. Almost every top team I have played against is very much aware of the threat of a warrior and will target them frequently to protect their monks/flagrunner.

PVE toon ftw i guess.

tomcruisejr · Aug 26, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

just have 2 weapon helms. one with minor the other with superior. minor swap to superior when you got boost or youre not flagged as target.

yea pve warriors ftw.