Curse

kyro27 · Aug 19, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

so today my guild leader yells at me for using a sup rune, he said that pro guilds dont use sup runes only major in minor, excluding vigor and absorbtion.

just want to know if my guild leader knows what hes talking about or some crappy rumor he heard and belives.

heist23 · Aug 19, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

If it's a Q&A, it doesn't belong here.

Anyway, your leader might have heard that War Machine doesn't use Superior runes on their Warriors, so as to give them more health for some reason that I can't really remember at the moment (I think it was to give them a bigger chance of surviving during a spike when they're spiking and under frenzy...or something like that.).

I think that's grand and all, but I personally will stick with my Sup runes.

wolfy3455 · Aug 19, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Since, judging by your avatar, "little info area under your avatar", and absorbtion comment, you're a warrior player; thats generally not true. Warrior is the only class thats it's mostly accepted that a sup rune is needed. If you have a pve char, you can swap to minors if your dped. The higher the attribute, the more damage you do from base damage, bonuses, and more frequent crits. Its very rare to see a warrior run anything but 16 weapon mastery.

Midline casters/rangers also usually use sups. Its common to be split into three attributes and superiors really help for reaching break points, or just making your char more efficient at whatever it does. Again, pve chars for dp switches help.

Monks are really the only character that uses minors more than superiors. Other professions can rely on their monks while getting spiked and a death in your midlines won't cause a roll. The most common spike is adrenal, which you can count on being kded for, so you're relying on the other monk (and a flashbot and preprotting, but those are player skill things) to keep you up. You want to make it as hard as possible for the other team to kill you, since you're reactive defense is cut in half if you die.

Tortoise · Aug 19, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Monks = never a sup (unless when you're swapping it out after casting boon on a boon prot)
Other softies = if avoidable then not, but their use is debatable.
Warriors = generally yes, but not using them is debatable.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 19, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

What is a "pro" guild?

Winning or losing is going to be based upon player skill, not that extra 35 health. If you're running warrior, keep running that superior weaponmastery rune, your guild leader is watching forums way too closely.

kyro27 · Aug 19, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

well i do like to play warrior in most things, but i do play casters and such, and thank you for answering them for me, so my guild leader is wrong :-p

Jagan Vastary · Aug 19, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

I don't think you can really just go out and say "Wars should never/always have sup weapon runes." Putting on a superior instead of a minor gives a warrior a bit more damage, but going without a sup allows you to overextend a bit more.

Sup runes on dom mesmers I think usually is a no-no, since they are almost always high priority targets and can usually hit the money breakpoints without a superior anyway. You can get away with a sup if you've got distortion, but that's pretty much true for any class.

I like using a sup on a ranger to hit expertise breakpoints and because you usually have a defensive stance anyway.

With a necro I think you can hit breakpoints easily with no sups.

For an elementalist I would usually go with all minors, since the difference between say 14 and 16 Air or water magic is not a lot, the breakpoint for flash is 14, and the main water hexes (shard storm, ice spikes, Deep Freeze, frozen burst) are all 14 breakpoints. This is assuming a 14-9-10 air or water/e-storage/healing or prot split, which I think is pretty common.

Monks I am pretty iffy on the sup vs no sup debate. Last I saw there were a lot of heavy pressure builds running around GvG, so that extra 6 healing from divine favor could make a difference, but it doesn't seem overly helpful.

Of course having a PvE character set up with a minor and superior set makes it easier to change based on the current match.

romO · Aug 19, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Your guild leader is full of crap. That is not debatable. Sup runes can be used on any character, but should be used with caution and most times only when points are being spread across many attributes. Warriors are generally allowed to have superior runes automatically due to the superiority of their armor. Other characters, such as elementalists that have to spec into 4 or more attributes, can use superiors without trouble as well. Other builds require a lot of speccing into primary attributes, such as ranger builds that require a lot of expertise to fuel the rest of the build, as well as att points to make the rest of the build effective, can also utilize superior runes. The only places where it may not be the best idea to use them are on monks and roles like domination mesmers because they need the additional health and do not benefit much from the additional attribute points (many domination skills are capped at att lvl 14).

llsektorll · Aug 19, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

i never use sup rune on warriors, all minors ftw... idea is to tank... and sup runes take away from it... tanks also can't get spiked down easily because of it giving them that edge of spikers... when you think about it... you are scrificing a few hp of dmg for 75 more hp, i think its well worth it.

Vindexus · Aug 19, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

i never use sup rune on warriors, all minors ftw... idea is to tank... and sup runes take away from it... tanks also can't get spiked down easily because of it giving them that edge of spikers... when you think about it... you are scrificing a few hp of dmg for 75 more hp, i think its well worth it.

I have this saved in a text file on my desktop

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankzrdum.txt

The idea of a "tank" in PvP is dumb because since they dedicate so much of their skill bar and attributes to staying alive they have very little left over with which to hurt you. Because of this there is no reason to target them. And when you aren't attacking them they are neither causing you harm nor soaking up damage, making them useless on every front.

Patrograd · Aug 19, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I have recently switched from using superiors to all minors on my warrior and the difference is to me simply massive. Lets put it this way, I notice the benefits of the extra health much, much, much more than I notice the reduced damage.

Some specific individual builds may need majors or conceivably superiors to reach certain much needed break points, but other than that, as far as I'm concerned, I will only run minors for as long as the meta remains pressure and spike heavy.

590 health is ftw imo

yesitsrob · Aug 19, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by llsektorll

i never use sup rune on warriors, all minors ftw... idea is to tank... and sup runes take away from it... tanks also can't get spiked down easily because of it giving them that edge of spikers... when you think about it... you are scrificing a few hp of dmg for 75 more hp, i think its well worth it.

no the idea isn't to tank, don't be an idiot. If you ran less retarded gimmicks you'd probably know that.
_

I use superior weapon on warriors personally.

With some odd exceptions I find a minor to be good enough on most support rolls I find myself playing.

Monk I always go with minors

Greedy Gus · Aug 19, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I have recently switched from using superiors to all minors on my warrior and the difference is to me simply massive. Lets put it this way, I notice the benefits of the extra health much, much, much more than I notice the reduced damage.

Did you die often before? I always run a sup weapon rune on warriors in GvG, and I barely die; if I do, it's generally because I did something stupid or it was inevitable.

Warskull · Aug 19, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

In GvG:
Runners rarely run superior stat runes
Monks sometimes don't run superior stat runes.
Mesmers depend on the build
Warriors always run superior stat runes

However:
Most people try to make PvE warriors so they can swap off their superior stat rune mid match.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 19, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

If you don't have a PvE warrior I suggest buying a minor rune and just carrying it along with you. If you get DP then just overrite the sup rune.

Yanman.be · Aug 19, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I often go 16 in elements ( running pure elements + energy storage )
I run dual majors on assassins most of the time ( dagger + crit strikes )
I still don't know if I should use sup divine on a boon prot.
For mesmers and necro's its' complicated.
Ritualists depend...often I go 15/16 on a ritual lord...he doesn't see too much action does h?
And warrriors...always sup in the weapon mastery.

Patrograd · Aug 19, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Did you die often before? I always run a sup weapon rune on warriors in GvG, and I barely die; if I do, it's generally because I did something stupid or it was inevitable.

Well, I would rather run a PVE warrior and choose the correct rune set for each occasion, but I am still working on that being new to a warrior having always played a caster before

So I'm stuck for now on a PVP toon, and so I would rather run minors. I guess its a matter of personal choice. I was dead set against it and used all the arguments which you use and have been highlighted in this thread, but someone said after listneing to Weapon of choice the other week "Look, just try it and see". I tried it and prefer it hugely. Under degen from disease or poison my health falls noticeably slower, when in 1v1 duels against ganking warriors or assasins the extra health is a huge plus.

All I would say is try it and see which you prefer. The loss of damage is really very small - has anyone done a DPS calculation? Its seems to lose me about @ 10 points from a spike, which never makes a difference for sure, and the slightly lower DPS while I am building adrenaline doesnt make any odds either.

kryshnysh · Aug 19, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

All I would say is try it and see which you prefer. The loss of damage is really very small - has anyone done a DPS calculation? Its seems to lose me about @ 10 points from a spike, which never makes a difference for sure, and the slightly lower DPS while I am building adrenaline doesnt make any odds either.

For DPS numbers its approximately 10% to go from 16 to 14 in your weapon mastery of choice. The numbers will vary a bit for a lot of reasons (uncertainty on critical hit chances, weapon chosen, etc.). Spike numbers I would expect to be similar (but with no impact on the deep wound health loss) but I haven't actually bothered to crunch them.

Ulivious The Reaper · Aug 19, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

to be honest a good warrior runs 15-16 wepon mastery.. use that superior rune and put him in his place.. plus if you didn't use superior runes how would you have 9 str and 9 tactics at once? yeh gg guild leader gg

kryshnysh · Aug 19, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulivious The Reaper

plus if you didn't use superior runes how would you have 9 str and 9 tactics at once? yeh gg guild leader gg

Why are you bothering to use a superior (or major) rune in tactics or strength? How else does this impact those stats?

I would check your math again. 12/9/9 as base before runes/helm is quite possible.