Curse

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 22, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

No this is not an enraged monk sitting down and griping at the wa/mos and sins raping me.

This is intended to be a discussion on the logic behind the "kill the monk first" philosophy so present today in pvp.

First lets see where we got that philosophy(no guareentees on spelling). From what i can tell this origionally spawned from 2 different builds: the WoH healer and the Bonder. Each of these builds were remarkable at team healing the WoH could spam near constant 150+ healing skills per sec and the bonder odviously bonded the entire team so they would either take 1/2 or quarter damage depending on if they stacked life barriar on top or not. However each had limited self healing: WoH relied on a 5 sec recharge touch area skill (healing touch) and bonds took half the damage subtracted a bit depending on lvl of protection prayers and redirected it to the bonder. So from these 2 weaknesses i believe that most wars, meses, and eles got into the habit of always killing the monk first because that was the weak link in the chain of party protection.

However, currently i believe that this philosophy(someone look this up for me, please?) is outdated in todays version of pvp. The reason why is because of the boon prot.

To better understand this i have taken the build for the boon prot and broken it down so hopefully we can better understand its strengthes and weaknesses.

Boon Prot (courtesy of Guildwiki)

Divine Favor Attributes and Skills
Monk / Mesmer
Attribute Rank

Divine Favor
11 + 1 + 3
Protection Prayers
10 + 1
Inspiration Magic
10

Reversal of Fortune

Guardian

Protective Spirit

Mend Condition

Contemplation of Purity

Divine Boon

Mantra of Recall

Inspired Hex

Yes I know there are other versions of the boon prot out there but this is by far the most common and in some ways the most lethal, but helpful for this discussion

Lets see 15*3.2= 48 health per heal gain from divine favor
And

Divine boon at 15 divine favor heals for 67 health per heal (hph, I’ll refer back to this often)

So that’s a total of 115 hph for everyone one of there skills except for Mend Condition but ill get to that later.

So barring one exception that’s 115 per skill they spam no matter what

No matter what

Looks pretty solid doesn’t it. Already we have seen and improvement over the last builds mentioned in that it spreads hph evenly and doesn’t favor skills that target only other allies.

Now for my second point against attacking the monk first is brought up with the skill Contemplation of Purity. Lets look at it now.

Contemplation of Purity (also courtesy of Guildwiki)

Lose all enchantments for each enchantment lost gain 6…95 health, lose one hex, and lose one condition

So big price to pay to get that one right? As most players know it is well worth the trade as you can easily spam divine boon back up again and maintain your hph. Another less known but sill popular affect of this skill is when comboed with mantra of recall you geta minor energy spike. Another big plus. Did I mention the ¼ sec cast time? So Any ways its pretty odvious that with this skill you can hopefully keep most hexes and conditions off of you and keep your health pretty high at the same time.

The monk is looking to be a stronger link in the chain than you origionally thought right?

The Second aspect of this build I would like to draw your attention to is the fact that 4 out of the 8 skills are ¼ sec cast times which means they can stop drop a spell and keep on running almost faster than you can get an attack in (assuming your a war or sin). This means that they can also, odviously get their spells out there quicker leaing more time to strafe and reposition to better maintain the health of there allies.

Isn’t it?

Now the final thing I would like to draw your attention to is that ALL OF THE BOON PROTS SKILLS TARGET ONLY 1 ALLY which means if you have your team attack 2 targets at once the boon prot is going to have trouble keeping up healing his teammates JUST BECAUSE HUMANS CANT REACT FAST ENOUGH. It takes approxiamatly ½ sec for a impulse to go from your brain to your hands another ¼ sec to move your muscles and a final ¼ sec for the spell to actually trigger. IF you spread that out over multiple targets even the best boon porters will atleast feel some strain from having to deal with 2 many objectives.

I have to address Mend Condition before I open this up to the public. While it gives a significant boost to both the healing of the boon prot and it removes a condition from the ally, not to mention the 2 sec recharge time, it is not a viable alternative because the health bonus only kicks in if a condition is removed and it has a 5/4 of a sec cast time, easy pickings for any interrupter.

This is not a call for interrupters, edinails, or shutdown builds to stop targeting monks because every heal they stop is and additional 115 dmg done; this I a call for dps heavy builds like wars or sins to stop chasing the monk half way across the map and to find another target that is doing more good and easier to kill and take him out.

Morganas · Aug 22, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

I wasn't aware there was an uncompromising "kill the monk first" philosophy in TA or GvG. In TA any team with a mes will often kill the monk last, and in GvG the kill order is too dependent upon the enemy build and your own, and positioning, to label it as something that simple.

Also, the boon prot's been around since almost the very beginning, and became popular pretty early on too. I don't think monk stomping ever existed outside of RA.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 23, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

From my experience, in RA, Ta, and Ha (limited gvg as far as i have seen this holds true but im going to trust you guys on it) I have never seen a team rush any one but the monk first. Sure you might throw an interupter on their interupter, or vice versa but if you can honestly tell me that your team does not rush the monk with its wars, Congratulations this thread does not apply to you. But still I want you to share why you go for others besides monks, because whether youve seen it or not (top ranked players/guilds excluded) on the average level this is what happens most often.

I am just trying to get people to rethink some time help strategy's and maybe come up with something new.

As to the boon prot comment, I aggree its been around forever but it hasnt been till recently that it gains so much popularity typically WoH and other monk builds delivered more hph.

tomcruisejr · Aug 23, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

heh.

No monks, no heal. Disrupting/Edenying/Shutting down monks is 1 step closer to killing him.

So Kill the monks yo, energy wise or hp wise. Or Isolate him from your next target.

Cador · Aug 23, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Kwisatz I am sorry but that is fairly inaccurate. Who puts an interrupter on the interrupter? I know in Bspike that the gale monk or spirit spammer goes on the infuser. I know in balanced you through thte mesmers on the monk and free up the wars to attack elementalists, or other mesmers. In some cases if they have very good monks for balanced build we throw our warriors on the monks and keep our mesmers on the damage cannons.

/end of my post

DieInBasra · Aug 23, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

You shouldn't go for monks first mainly because if a monk is kiteing he's doing his job, while if another caster is kiteing he's not doing his, or he's taking damage. Skills don't have to much to do with it. Spiking monks is comepletely differant, and if you spike isn't instant, you should probably spike them first.

As for attacking two targets, heal party means it's not as an amazing idea as you say. Of course, this is all saying gvg.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 23, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

You shouldn't go for monks first mainly because if a monk is kiteing he's doing his job, while if another caster is kiteing he's not doing his, or he's taking damage.

qft. Disrupting the offense is far more effective, until you can actually wear down the monks enough (snare, e deny, etc) to score the kill.

TheLordOfBlah · Aug 23, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Uh... boon prot monks are one of the easiest builds for a mez to take down. Sure you dont have to kill them, but you're effectivley doing the same thing by spamming diversion on them.

just rude · Aug 23, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwisatz_Haderach

This is not a call for interrupters, edinails, or shutdown builds to stop targeting monks because every heal they stop is and additional 115 dmg done; this I a call for dps heavy builds like wars or sins to stop chasing the monk half way across the map and to find another target that is doing more good and easier to kill and take him out.

This is the only part that makes your point quasi-valid. Ask a monk what it's like to sit back and spam skills w/o any pressure at all, you will never wear them down, unless you have an unifuseable spike or crazy degen thing.

If you are in a all war or melee dmg group someone to be pressuring the monk at all times, or you will never kill someone.

Those skills a boon prot takes aren't because they all have quick recharges, the 115 point heal isn't the only thing. Try spiking through prot spirit. When you wiff when the prot throughs up a guardian exactly how much was dmg was negated 115 or more. You already mentioned RoF so I wont bother.

I'm also a little confused why your monk had CoP and Mend Condition. CoP is usually a solo monk backiline thing, and MC is usually a dual monk backline thing.

Unless the monk is way out of range to heal someone he has to be pressured, so please kill the #%@& MONK.

and when has a Wa/Mo raped anything.

LightningHell · Aug 23, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by just rude

This is the only part that makes your point quasi-valid. Ask a monk what it's like to sit back and spam skills w/o any pressure at all, you will never wear them down, unless you have an unifuseable spike or crazy degen thing.

If you are in a all war or melee dmg group someone to be pressuring the monk at all times, or you will never kill someone.

Those skills a boon prot takes aren't because they all have quick recharges, the 115 point heal isn't the only thing. Try spiking through prot spirit. When you wiff when the prot throughs up a guardian exactly how much was dmg was negated 115 or more. You already mentioned RoF so I wont bother.

I'm also a little confused why your monk had CoP and Mend Condition. CoP is usually a solo monk backiline thing, and MC is usually a dual monk backline thing.

Unless the monk is way out of range to heal someone he has to be pressured, so please kill the #%@& MONK.

and when has a Wa/Mo raped anything.

What do you mean CoP is usually a "solo monk backline"? It's used since...Holy Veil was nerfed. Or probably before, too.

When a monk kites, he effectively lessens the damage that you deal to him as a melee. He's doing his job by lessening damage.

When a mesmer kites, she's not doing his job in shutting down your various group members.

We're not talking about spikes.

I don't really get what you're talking about; are you thinking your monks go "OMG A WAR'S ON ME" when a war comes up to him?

Loch · Aug 23, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

It's used since...Holy Veil was nerfed. Or probably before, too.

CoP was used well before Holy Veil was nerfed. In fact, Holy Veil has even more synergy with CoP than Inspired (or Revealed) Hex does, because you lose yet another hex when Veil is stripped by CoP.

LightningHell · Aug 23, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

CoP was used well before Holy Veil was nerfed. In fact, Holy Veil has even more synergy with CoP than Inspired (or Revealed) Hex does, because you lose yet another hex when Veil is stripped by CoP.

Another aspect of me being ignorant of older days. And muddled memories.

just rude · Aug 23, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

What do you mean CoP is usually a "solo monk backline"? It's used since...Holy Veil was nerfed. Or probably before, too.

When a monk kites, he effectively lessens the damage that you deal to him as a melee. He's doing his job by lessening damage.

When a mesmer kites, she's not doing his job in shutting down your various group members.

We're not talking about spikes.

I don't really get what you're talking about; are you thinking your monks go "OMG A WAR'S ON ME" when a war comes up to him?

I can tell...

Most boon prots don't run cop in a dual monk backline, go into observer mode and find out for yourself. Most ppl dont run pure boon prots anymore anyway.

When a monk doesn't cast he IS doing his job. So if the monk runs around while your team is dying that's good?

When a mes doesn't cast he ISNT doing his job. Ever heard of distortion? you can evade and cast.

1 war can put enough pressure on a monk for the rest of a team to make a kill, and I was making fun of the fact that you have a Wa/Mo as your exmple of something killing a monk.

IF NOONE PRESSURES THE MONK YOU WILL KILL NOTHING, DO YOU GET THAT!!!

Yanman.be · Aug 23, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Depends on your offense IMO. Small spikes should go for the monk first, huge damage should spread it out over the squishies.

audioaxes · Aug 23, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

you dont need everyone on the monk but you really need to find a way to pressure the monks because you cant let them run free healing

0mar · Aug 23, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Energy spent healing the monk itself is less energy to go around for other group members.

You always need some sort of pressure on monks, whether it's e-denying or actual damage in TA/RA.

sir lockt · Aug 23, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

First of all: interesting post, and your points to start the discussion are valid imo.

Still I believe it is not mostly the intention to kill the monk first, but more the pressure him. A monk that is severly pressured, tend to pay attention to much to himself. Only good cooperating monks can deal with such situations.

When you get off a spike the monk is still a good target, even when pre-protted (shatter enchant) and properly excecuted, he will not survive. Thats where warrior hate kicks in to slow down and weaken adren spike (vs a balanced team)

In general my experience in TA and HA is to kill of mesmers first...as they are weak targets (AL speaking) and annoying for the backline. In GvG its too dependable on the build ran and the tactics (e.g. split)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLordOfBlah

Uh... boon prot monks are one of the easiest builds for a mez to take down. Sure you dont have to kill them, but you're effectivley doing the same thing by spamming diversion on them.

SInce when is diversion a problem? Maybe I missed something on this, but diversion is easilly counterable, and provides nice energy management via i-hex... If you dont have removal ready in the team.. just wait a few secs, barely making the difference. (dont come with the multiple copy argument, search first on the forum on the diversion/i-hex synergy... very nice indeed)

In general the only thing diversion triggers on me is: "Diversion on 7, have fun... " over TS and a nice 5 seconds run around the flag

Quote:

Originally Posted by just rude

I'm also a little confused why your monk had CoP and Mend Condition. CoP is usually a solo monk backiline thing, and MC is usually a dual monk backline thing.

CoP is on most boons, since the beginning for 2 reasons: First its in perfect synergy with boon itself and (especially with high DF) a very powerful self-defense skill. With MoR you have some more obvious advantages.

MC was introduced on the boon as standard since ailment got a blow and Soul Wedding and One Star entered the championship with a 3 spell build. (so only RoF, MC and PS... CoP as support, boon obvious and 3 inspiration energy management or distortion) MC is a very powerful heal (together with the bonus of removal) and is extremely spammable.

For self-removal CoP is used if in extreme trouble.

Final note: as can be seen less boons are around these days and more BL is coming in. Probably with the release of Nightfall boon will be through the drain anyway. If you can score a kill on a monk, that is very valuable, but most balanced teams use a widespread toolbox of support skills on various other chars. Imo: pressure broad and spike unexpected... And if somebody happens to bring an infuser: you know your target...

QuixotesGhost · Aug 23, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

An important part of playing a warrior is to never let monks get thier money's worth from protection magic. Build up your adrenaline and try to spike where the prot isn't. 8 times outta 10 "where the prot isn't" is going to be a target other than the monk.

Quote:

Now the final thing I would like to draw your attention to is that ALL OF THE BOON PROTS SKILLS TARGET ONLY 1 ALLY which means if you have your team attack 2 targets at once the boon prot is going to have trouble keeping up healing his teammates JUST BECAUSE HUMANS CANT REACT FAST ENOUGH. It takes approxiamatly ½ sec for a impulse to go from your brain to your hands another ¼ sec to move your muscles and a final ¼ sec for the spell to actually trigger. IF you spread that out over multiple targets even the best boon porters will atleast feel some strain from having to deal with 2 many objectives.

It's not only that, it's that protection magic becomes more efficent the more Enemies that are wailing on the same guy.

Consider two allied warriors wailing on one monk, monk casts Guardian. For 5 Energy both those warriors are going to have ~42% of thier attacks blocked.

Now pretend one warrior is wailing on a mes and one is wailing on the monk. In this case, in order for the monk to block ~42% of the warriors attacks with his protection magic he has to cast two copies of Guadian, 10 Energy total. One for himself and one for the mesmer.

Seltack · Aug 23, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Ofcourse it depends on your build when you hit the monks and the situation, having a blanket "you always do x" basis for play is a very bad idea if you want to be able to adapt to the situations of a match.

For instance, you are a spike team and they have a really sharp infuser (and your spikes aren't perfect the whole time) who is stopping your spike, then kill the monk asap and then spike something else once he's dead.

Ideally you try and kill what causes the most damage to your team, if you are a degen team then its the HP guy, if you want a boost its the flagger, if you're a hex team its the convert etc. Damage in this case doesn't necessarily mean HP, it could be the guy stopping your team doing your job, a mesmer shutting down your offense or monks for instance.

timmyw29 · Aug 23, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seltack

Ideally you try and kill what causes the most damage to your team...

The proverbial nail has been successfully hit on the head.

IMO this is how things have been for a very long time now in any serious group. At bare minimum a good caller assesses the situation before choosing who to drop first, and reassesses the situation following each major turning point (i.e someone on your team dies, or maybe a morale boost.. things of this nature). Sometimes it's not even a case of killing one particular character first, but instead pressuring several targets until one of them, any one of them, dies.

There's no one character that has to be killed first regardless of the build you're running and the build you're against, the character (or characters) that need to die change based on what you are, and what they are.