Curse

LoyalSoldier · Aug 22, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

I never said they could win. I said they could hold back the NPC assault and then some. The obvious counter to that is to remove the enchantments on the bonded NPC gate defender, and the obvious counter to that is to prevent the enchantment remover from casting the removal spell.

And you say I don't listen.

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Just because you think that the map is unfair does not make it unfair.

Your right when I think that a map is unfair doesn't make it so, but when many of people are saying the map is unfair that should give you a clue.

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You say you "know" how they work in practice, and it's obvious you don't. I'm just going to stop arguing now, because you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and further more, you repeatedly twist what I say into something stupid in order to bolster your own arguments.

You aren't exactly making the best arguement yourself. I mean here you say "because you don't seem to know what you're talking about". Isn't that trying to make a fool out of me so people won't listen? Read your own stuff before you critic mine.

SirJackassIII · Aug 22, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

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Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

The Luxons do need specific builds, but they are the ones that people commonly play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Ummm....no. You just need a decent build. I have seen luxons win with some rather average builds. Even ones I haven't seen before. I play both sides frequently and I got tons of Amber and Jade to show for it. There is no contest.

Kurzick's skill list is just too exact. You can't get that accuracy in a random arena. I have taken just about each of my characters in and every time there is always something I can't combat. If you could pick your teams then I might buy the "Bring X build", but in a random arena it just isn't going to happen.

Uhm, Luxons do need specific builds. OFFENSIVE builds. A few defensive builds for monks who want to heal the turtle, but Trapper, Spirit Spammer etc are a lot worse then most other builds. In a way, the Kurzicks have it eaier to pick builds. All they need is defense, Luxons need offense and some small defense.
Basically for Kurzicks:
Ranger: Trapper or Interrupter
Monk: Bonder or Boon Prot (both work to hold gates for a long time)
Warrior: Needs a speed Boost, small offense to cap Mines, not bother with much else
Sins: Condition skills for Turtle and Monks healing turtle
Mesmer: Degen+interupt
Necro: Curses or MM (Blood works too since Turtle doesn't reduce life stealing damage)
Rit: Spirit Spammer (defensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Water/Air Ele Slowdown+Blinding Flash

Luxons:
Ranger: Barrage/Interrupter
Monk: Healer
Warrior: Offensive build
Sins: Conditions are nice
Mesmer: Degen and enchant removal
Necro: MM or Blood for Gunther
Rit:Spirit Spammer (Offensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Earth

The reason you think Luxons don't need specific builds is because most of the builds that are best suited for them are rather standard builds, used a lot in other areas of Cantha. Of course, in PvE you play offensively. Kurzick need to play defensively. That's the whle point of the map.
Oh, and you can win in Kurzick areas without a single monk, and your odds increase exceptionally if the whole party is active.

Silver_Fang · Aug 22, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Uhm, Luxons do need specific builds. OFFENSIVE builds. A few defensive builds for monks who want to heal the turtle, but Trapper, Spirit Spammer etc are a lot worse then most other builds. In a way, the Kurzicks have it eaier to pick builds. All they need is defense, Luxons need offense and some small defense.
Basically for Kurzicks:
Ranger: Trapper or Interrupter
Monk: Bonder or Boon Prot (both work to hold gates for a long time)
Warrior: Needs a speed Boost, small offense to cap Mines, not bother with much else
Sins: Condition skills for Turtle and Monks healing turtle
Mesmer: Degen+interupt
Necro: Curses or MM (Blood works too since Turtle doesn't reduce life stealing damage)
Rit: Spirit Spammer (defensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Water/Air Ele Slowdown+Blinding Flash

Luxons:
Ranger: Barrage/Interrupter
Monk: Healer
Warrior: Offensive build
Sins: Conditions are nice
Mesmer: Degen and enchant removal
Necro: MM or Blood for Gunther
Rit:Spirit Spammer (Offensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Earth

The reason you think Luxons don't need specific builds is because most of the builds that are best suited for them are rather standard builds, used a lot in other areas of Cantha. Of course, in PvE you play offensively. Kurzick need to play defensively. That's the whle point of the map.
Oh, and you can win in Kurzick areas without a single monk, and your odds increase exceptionally if the whole party is active.

First, You have listed more special name build for Kurzick than Luxon, it tells you that Kurzick need more specific build.

Second, 2 of the luxon build you listed can counter the Kurzick Boon Prot(actually 3 if the necro bring WotP as well), and Kurzick need more healer than that.

Thrid, Luxon Ranger using a Trapper build is also a good idea. Also, Ranger with EoE is a good build, even after the nerf.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 22, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Uhm, Luxons do need specific builds. OFFENSIVE builds. A few defensive builds for monks who want to heal the turtle, but Trapper, Spirit Spammer etc are a lot worse then most other builds. In a way, the Kurzicks have it eaier to pick builds. All they need is defense, Luxons need offense and some small defense.

Basically for Kurzicks:
Ranger: Trapper or Interrupter
Monk: Bonder or Boon Prot (both work to hold gates for a long time)
Warrior: Needs a speed Boost, small offense to cap Mines, not bother with much else
Sins: Condition skills for Turtle and Monks healing turtle
Mesmer: Degen+interupt
Necro: Curses or MM (Blood works too since Turtle doesn't reduce life stealing damage)
Rit: Spirit Spammer (defensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Water/Air Ele Slowdown+Blinding Flash

Luxons:
Ranger: Barrage/Interrupter
Monk: Healer
Warrior: Offensive build
Sins: Conditions are nice
Mesmer: Degen and enchant removal
Necro: MM or Blood for Gunther
Rit:Spirit Spammer (Offensive Spirits)
Ele: Nuker, or Earth

Ok and how many do they need not just "can be handy?" How many of those builds are 100% critical to their success? Because I can list a few that the Kurzicks really need to survive.

BTW Trapping rangers are harder than hell to play in FA because of all the NPCs running around. Though it is sort of fun to go Luxon and set as many traps as you can on the teleporter exit. Nothing like watching three people warp only to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

The reason you think Luxons don't need specific builds is because most of the builds that are best suited for them are rather standard builds, used a lot in other areas of Cantha. Of course, in PvE you play offensively. Kurzick need to play defensively. That's the whle point of the map.
Oh, and you can win in Kurzick areas without a single monk, and your odds increase exceptionally if the whole party is active.

Because they don't really need any specific build. Just about any decent attacking build will work.

To be honest. The more agressive Kurzicks are the harder ones to beat not the ones who sit around in their fort. The other day I saw a great team where there was an average of six people rushing the oranage mine. We couldn't bust the gates faster than they could repair it. It was the first time in a long time where I was beaten without ever setting foot inside the main courtyard.

Edit: Quoted the wrong post before.

Servant of Kali · Aug 23, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

BTW Trapping rangers are harder than hell to play in FA because of all the NPCs running around

I havent tried Trapper on luxon side yet but it was fun on Kurzick side. Basically, i had Savage shot to keep hitting turtle, and Storm chaser to run in circle around it (to avoid luxon warriors and luxon players). I would switch to amber run when needed. Basically, i run, place down Snare, i run, stop, place down Barbed trap, etc. You dont need to dmg anyone with your traps, you just need to keep crippling them over and over again. If it takes ages for luxon player to finally crawl to the battlefield, it's the same as killing him actually

even better..

LoyalSoldier · Aug 23, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

I havent tried Trapper on luxon side yet but it was fun on Kurzick side. Basically, i had Savage shot to keep hitting turtle, and Storm chaser to run in circle around it (to avoid luxon warriors and luxon players). I would switch to amber run when needed. Basically, i run, place down Snare, i run, stop, place down Barbed trap, etc. You dont need to dmg anyone with your traps, you just need to keep crippling them over and over again. If it takes ages for luxon player to finally crawl to the battlefield, it's the same as killing him actually

even better..

I just think there are better ways than trapping. It is annoying, but if you have a monk around it hardly does anything. I woud think a water Ele would have more use.

Riotgear · Aug 24, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

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Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

I woud think a water Ele would have more use.

I've tried various water builds there, doesn't work too well.

On Kurzick, although blurred vision and rust completely wreck the warrior packs, range issues on the ledges prevent slowing people down at all from actually reaching the NPCs, and damage simply comes too slow to stop them once they engage. Energy spending is too slow for AOR to keep up with every single class spamming degen crap. Fire does a better job of thinning out the NPC squads, air does a better job of killing the turtles and running, earth handles the absolute crapload of whammos more effectively and is more resistant to warrior pack beatdowns.

On Luxon, fire is better for clearing the mines by a long shot (MS prevents the cleansers from summoning anything), air is better for dealing with ranger snipers and knocking them over when they try to use troll unguent, only thing water's really good for is snaring amber runners. Except who cares about that when you could just pack meteor shower and solo the gates and mines without even trying?

LoyalSoldier · Aug 24, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I've tried various water builds there, doesn't work too well.

On Kurzick, although blurred vision and rust completely wreck the warrior packs, range issues on the ledges prevent slowing people down at all from actually reaching the NPCs, and damage simply comes too slow to stop them once they engage. Energy spending is too slow for AOR to keep up with every single class spamming degen crap. Fire does a better job of thinning out the NPC squads, air does a better job of killing the turtles and running, earth handles the absolute crapload of whammos more effectively and is more resistant to warrior pack beatdowns.

On Luxon, fire is better for clearing the mines by a long shot (MS prevents the cleansers from summoning anything), air is better for dealing with ranger snipers and knocking them over when they try to use troll unguent, only thing water's really good for is snaring amber runners. Except who cares about that when you could just pack meteor shower and solo the gates and mines without even trying?

Yea I just mean between a water ele or a trapper I would prefer the ele. They have a little more leanway.

A User Name · Aug 24, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Well im just adding my opinion to the mix and asking why hasnt anet balanced out the mission?

Having played both the Luxon side and Kurzick side it is simply way too easy for a luxon team to win. I find that the luxon team requires little to no coordination other than bringing the turtles constantly. They can camp the mines if they want and prevent the kurzicks from ever getting amber since they respawn at the mines as well. Also they have the only darn npc's that actually heal themselves (i.e. the 'coward' warriors that dont body block one another and can almost sych their attacks prefectly). If the luxon team even has a monk it is almost a guaranteed win since anyone wanting to kill the monk must brave the warriors as well as the siege turtle's siege attack and carrier defense. Also the siege turtles can smash through the base by themselves because of their siege attack that knocks any gate down in 2-3 shots provided no healing bonuses. Also since the all the kurzicks npcs either are static or run so far (in the case of gunther and the gatekeepers) that they can easily be ganked by the nearest person since they never heal themselves other than the Protect Spirit. Dont forget that as soon as the gatekeepers sense someone is on thier turf they no longer accept amber which really messes up the kurzick team.

Now going to the Kurzick side, which requires teamwork and ALMOST require a monk and a full team, (which almost never happens due to leechers and leavers, which also affects the luxon team as well as they have thier share as well). The kurzicks must work as a team to run amber and defend thier base from the siege turtles, both of which can be hard as luxon respawn at the mines and the siege turtles can be tough to take down (deg works very well against the turtles, but if the luxon side has a monk guarding the turtle its affects are lessened) The Kurzicks have the advantage of the turtles long siege skill which is long enough to very easily interupt. Also they can take advantage of the luxon warriors poor pathfinding skills, but that isnt all that common.

In my opinion to balance the mission would be to make it so that the mines can not be solo'ed as easily when the kurzicks have them since they are completely dependent on them and the fact that they are the defenders should mean they have a defensive advantage. Also making it so the luxon warriors body block one another, but get better pathfinding. Also allowing the gatekeepers to accept amber while attacking would work wonders for balance. Well that's my two cents.

Edit: a few horrible spelling mistakes that i didnt catch before.

Paperfly · Aug 26, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

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In my opinion to balance the mission would be to make it so that the mines can not be solo'ed as easily when the kurzicks have them since they are completely dependent on them

Killing the Kurzick mine cleaners is already much harder than taking out a couple of Luxon rangers with zero defensive skills. Neither is hard to solo if you're built for it, but the Kurz defenders are a lot more robust against casual builds.

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and the fact that they are the defenders should mean they have a defensive advantage.

They have several defensive advantages. They have giant, repairable walls that are impassable to Luxons and act as guaranteed choke points, and if the game goes on beyond a certain duration, they win.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 26, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Killing the Kurzick mine cleaners is already much harder than taking out a couple of Luxon rangers with zero defensive skills. Neither is hard to solo if you're built for it, but the Kurz defenders are a lot more robust against casual builds.

While I do agree, I think the NPCs in general are to easy to solo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

They have several defensive advantages. They have giant, repairable walls that are impassable to Luxons and act as guaranteed choke points, and if the game goes on beyond a certain duration, they win.

You mean the walls that go down rather easily? If the NPCs were a little tougher or smarter then I might buy that. But they are just as easy to solo as the mines. Heck you have to devote a monk to the gate just to keep the turtles from knocking it down let alone all the players.

Riotgear · Aug 28, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Just gotta say, lately I've been seeing an even more annoying defense than bonders: Spirit spam. I can take care of bonders, I normally pack crap against them just in case, hitting them with diversion spam or wither/malaise knocks them out real quick.

But spirit spam is another story. Out of range of anyone at the gate, just hit rit lord, boon of creation, then just spam shelter, union, life, and recuperation over and over again. Use signet of creation for extra annoyance.

Unless you can get a MM or something to overwhelm the spirits, it's pretty much GG off that alone.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 31, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Just gotta say, lately I've been seeing an even more annoying defense than bonders: Spirit spam. I can take care of bonders, I normally pack crap against them just in case, hitting them with diversion spam or wither/malaise knocks them out real quick.

But spirit spam is another story. Out of range of anyone at the gate, just hit rit lord, boon of creation, then just spam shelter, union, life, and recuperation over and over again. Use signet of creation for extra annoyance.

Unless you can get a MM or something to overwhelm the spirits, it's pretty much GG off that alone.

Nope. That is what hexes are for. Throw enough degen on the target and the spammer can't do a thing.

Paperfly · Aug 31, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

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Nope. That is what hexes are for. Throw enough degen on the target and the spammer can't do a thing.

Yup, bonders can be stripped, and spirit spammers can be outraced. In metagame terms, you have to play to counter one or the other.

...But these are specific builds that Luxons have to run, as opposed to the common complaint that a team of eight Luxon assassins with no skills on their bar can win every round with their arms tied behind their backs and their ankles tied to their arms.

A sophisticated metagame, in other words. Isn't it great?

Riotgear · Aug 31, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Nope. That is what hexes are for. Throw enough degen on the target and the spammer can't do a thing.

The recuperation and life spirits alone provide roughly 11HP/sec. Yeah, some people are packing more than that, but that turns degen that would really mess up most players into "cast Faintheartedness on them and wait until they die from it!"

Supplement that with even mediocre healing and it becomes fairly difficult to manage.

Silver_Fang · Aug 31, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The recuperation and life spirits alone provide roughly 11HP/sec. Yeah, some people are packing more than that, but that turns degen that would really mess up most players into "cast Faintheartedness on them and wait until they die from it!"

Supplement that with even mediocre healing and it becomes fairly difficult to manage.

A spirit spammer cannot hold a gate with any real attack, from turtle? yes, from real attack? no. They need someone to help them to heal. Life and Recuperation is not enough.

-10 Degen as well as Backfire, empathy and any hex will kill the NPC. To break a gate with spirit spammer, you just need to kill the healer that is healing the NPC instead of the spirit spammer, Hex and Degen or just call target on the NPC. If they have 2+ healer and 1 spirit spammer, then good game, they got a better team.

Cirian · Aug 31, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I've been playing my Rit as a full Restoration Rit on the Luxon side, mainly babysitting the turtles with weapon spells and direct heals - Resilient Weapon is especially phenomenal in FA due to all the conditions and hexes flying around

The turtles and their warrior assist trains are key for the luxons winning. Playing on the Kurzick side, I was sickenedd by the number of times the hammer warrior train would 2-shot kill me and use "Coward" to knock me down in case I ran - totally savage. And then there's the turtle, hitting for ~230 damage or so on a direct hit, or 100 damage for its 'carrier defence' knockback attack. If the Luxons can keep those NPCs up and keep them effective, they trample over everything pretty quickly. Killing them is absolutely key for Kurzicks, and I think minion masters, hexers and barragers (R/ and A/R) are good at this.

On the Luxon side, a healer or two is pretty important. One to babysit each turtle and nearby allies. I had a lot of success playing a full healing N/Mo with Heal Party, Extinguish, a load of enchants and direct heals, and virtually unlimited energy thanks to Offering of Blood and Soulreaping (Soulreaping goes berzerk in FA)

LoyalSoldier · Sep 01, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The recuperation and life spirits alone provide roughly 11HP/sec. Yeah, some people are packing more than that, but that turns degen that would really mess up most players into "cast Faintheartedness on them and wait until they die from it!"

Supplement that with even mediocre healing and it becomes fairly difficult to manage.

Not really. A mesmer will easily out do Recup. If the rit wants to come up and heal then that makes him a target because he has to get in range.