Curse

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

A good prot monk and a good ritualist working together can keep out the Luxons indefinitely from one side, at least in theory.

Well of Profane FTW!!!... No really that is all you need. Because the monk can only protect one efficiently, but that leaves a nice little corpse right next to the elementalist. If you have WoPr a boon prot is worthless. Now a Rit can over come that problem, but not without troubles of his own.

Not to mention when a boon prot is protecting the turtles is becomes annoying.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 20, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Well of Profane FTW!!!... No really that is all you need. Because the monk can only protect one efficiently, but that leaves a nice little corpse right next to the elementalist. If you have WoPr a boon prot is worthless. Now a Rit can over come that problem, but not without troubles of his own.

Not to mention when a boon prot is protecting the turtles is becomes annoying.

I meant against the NPC offense of turtles + hammers. There are otherwise an infinite number of counters skill-wise. That's just a universal truth to Guild Wars, and you have to learn to accept that, instead of screaming for nerfs or bragging.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

I meant against the NPC offense of turtles + hammers. There are otherwise an infinite number of counters skill-wise. That's just a universal truth to Guild Wars, and you have to learn to accept that, instead of screaming for nerfs or bragging.

This is one counter that almost always wins the game. It has been shown that the only good way to hold a gate is to have a monk on the gate. So what is an easy way to beat them? Throw down a well. It can't be removed and at the same time the NPCs are too stupid to get out of it.

You know I think that goes to prove the point of this thread. The fact that the Kurzicks have to devote a monk just to keep a gate that has no enemy players attacking it should give you a clue. Otherwise the Luxons just set the turtles on auto pilot and they bust through the gate on that side.

I pwnd U · Aug 20, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

It works too. I have seen a necro bring a bunch of wells and just plowed through a gate bonded by a monk. You dont see it enough though. Most necros go SS or MM. If their were more well necros Luxons would win alot more.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 20, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

This is one counter that almost always wins the game. It has been shown that the only good way to hold a gate is to have a monk on the gate. So what is an easy way to beat them? Throw down a well. It can't be removed and at the same time the NPCs are too stupid to get out of it.

You know I think that goes to prove the point of this thread. The fact that the Kurzicks have to devote a monk just to keep a gate that has no enemy players attacking it should give you a clue. Otherwise the Luxons just set the turtles on auto pilot and they bust through the gate on that side.

Well of the Profane has a three second cast time. That's a cinch for anyone with an interrupt to shut down. This doesn't prove any point other than that you will not always have the right counter to win in every situation in Aspenwood. The same is true in almost every PvP scenario, and you have to accept that or just find another game.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Well of the Profane has a three second cast time. That's a cinch for anyone with an interrupt to shut down. This doesn't prove any point other than that you will not always have the right counter to win in every situation in Aspenwood. The same is true in almost every PvP scenario, and you have to accept that or just find another game.

Oh yea... easy to shut down when they are well out of your attack range. A ranger would have problems because of the gate and a Mesmer couldn't get close enough to hit the Necro. Not to mention they will always have tons of backup and the freaking turtles too.

See once again you expect the Kurzick side to have everything. It is a random arena. You can't assume to have anything besides what you bring in. If you need the perfect set of players to win as the Kurzicks in Aspenwood while at the same time not really needing anything then it is unbalanced. You can make all the excuses you want, but any way you cut it the map needs work.

I play just about every other form of PvP BTW. Jade Quary, GvG, AB, TA, ect. don't have nearly the amount of problems that this map does.

Quote:

It works too. I have seen a necro bring a bunch of wells and just plowed through a gate bonded by a monk. You dont see it enough though. Most necros go SS or MM. If their were more well necros Luxons would win alot more.

It is becoming quite popular in a hurry. Heck you don't even need much in death magic to make it work either because you only need a few seconds to bring down the NPC. Four out of Six of my last trips saw the use of WoPr.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 20, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

If you can't deal with getting screwed by the randomness system, go play something else. Oh, and a longbow Ranger will definitely be able to hit the necro from the balcony.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

If you can't deal with getting screwed by the randomness system, go play something else. Oh, and a longbow Ranger will definitely be able to hit the necro from the balcony.

Ah yes the quite popular "Go play somewhere else" It is frequently a cop-out by people who don't want to fix anything.

Last I checked the title of the thread was "Fort Aspenwood Kurzick Handicap" We are talking about Aspenwood so I am going to say what is going on in Aspenwood. It needs some fixes. PERIOD. The randomness is not the issue as much as the exact need for professions.

I can play in RA and the Jade Quary quite easily, but of course they are both random. It is because both teams have the same playing field.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 20, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Exactly. I've played on the Luxon side, which certainly caters to the builds that everyone uses far more than the Kurzick side. However, they still get screwed if they don't have the right people. Kurzicks need to fix their build composition instead of whining.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 20, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Exactly. I've played on the Luxon side, which certainly caters to the builds that everyone uses far more than the Kurzick side. However, they still get screwed if they don't have the right people. Kurzicks need to fix their build composition instead of whining.

The only times I have lost on the luxon side in the last two days (About 39 games) were two times when we had four monks. Other than that I just monked the turtles.

The main thing you have to do is hold the gates on the Kurzick side. That has become close to impossible.

Then there is the issue where you can't hand the amber over to the gatekeepers if there is so much as one enemy standing next to them. I took a touch ranger and had a very fun time inside the green gate. It wasn't breached, but because I was running around in there the gatekeepers wouldn't accept the amber. All they had were warriors who couldn't even hit me. So basically one man beat the Kurzicks because they couldn't repair their gates. Because of this once the green gate is gone the kurzicks almost always lose. Seldomly do they make it past that.

SirJackassIII · Aug 21, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Oh yea... easy to shut down when they are well out of your attack range. A ranger would have problems because of the gate and a Mesmer couldn't get close enough to hit the Necro. Not to mention they will always have tons of backup and the freaking turtles too.

See once again you expect the Kurzick side to have everything. It is a random arena. You can't assume to have anything besides what you bring in. If you need the perfect set of players to win as the Kurzicks in Aspenwood while at the same time not really needing anything then it is unbalanced. You can make all the excuses you want, but any way you cut it the map needs work.

I play just about every other form of PvP BTW. Jade Quary, GvG, AB, TA, ect. don't have nearly the amount of problems that this map does.

Uhh, have you thoroughly checked the map?
Between the Inner and Outer Gate, there's a stair which causes Rangers to be able to snipe the Mines and Kill the Turtle once it breached the gate (It comes closer and in range of you, it'll try to kill you which makes it very easy to interupt). Kurzicks win if they have a few monks and interrupt/trap Rangers, which are DEFENSIVE builds, like they should play. I see too many Mending Whammos in FA, they're the worst kind everywhere else but they still think FA is a good place for them.

JQ is imbalanced to the Kurzicks, and boring as hell so the Luxons are never there.
ABs are biased to Kurzicks (3/5 maps favor Kurzicks, 4th is really slightly in favor of Luxons, 5th favoured Kurzicks before the bug was fixed)
GvG: Uhm, yeah, there were some imbalances, but these are fixed fast due to the Ladder, and one of the maps is an excellent place for spiking.
RA/TA: Maps aren't balanced nor imbalanced, all depends on team.

Paperfly · Aug 21, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Well of the Profane needs a co-ordinated spike in order to take out the bonded elementalist. It has a long casting-time and has to synch with an available corpse. Don't get me wrong, it's a very powerful spell against bonders, but it's not game over even if it resolves. It only takes two decent active heals on the monk's bar to outlast the attacks of a turtle and a Death necro for the Well's duration... And getting a second player to help you spike is harder than it sounds when you're bond stripping. Trust me, I've played this out a lot from both sides*.

Generally I've had better results with an A/R packing both Nature's Renewal and Expunge Enchantments, since he isn't bound to attack at a given point in time and can spike the bondee down fast when he needs to. Neither character really deals with the paralel problem of a Ritual Lord, though.

...In summary, there's a huge difference between the effectiveness of good and bad bonders, enchant strippers, and the metagame they brought the skills to counter. Things aren't simple, and they're fun!

On another point, why are people complaining about the Fort's asymmetry**? It's what makes the map different! There's plenty of places where you can play PvP - even mission-based PvP - on a literal level playing field. Asymmetry is what made Counter-Strike, it's what made Starcraft, and it's refreshing to have here.

*I'm still bitter about that idiot MM who ate my corpse even after I told her how badly I needed it.

**layout, not balance - although the former obviously makes the latter harder

Silver_Fang · Aug 21, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Between the Inner and Outer Gate, there's a stair which causes Rangers to be able to snipe the Mines and Kill the Turtle once it breached the gate (It comes closer and in range of you, it'll try to kill you which makes it very easy to interupt). Kurzicks win if they have a few monks and interrupt/trap Rangers, which are DEFENSIVE builds, like they should play. I see too many Mending Whammos in FA, they're the worst kind everywhere else but they still think FA is a good place for them.

JQ is imbalanced to the Kurzicks, and boring as hell so the Luxons are never there.
ABs are biased to Kurzicks (3/5 maps favor Kurzicks, 4th is really slightly in favor of Luxons, 5th favoured Kurzicks before the bug was fixed)
GvG: Uhm, yeah, there were some imbalances, but these are fixed fast due to the Ladder, and one of the maps is an excellent place for spiking.
RA/TA: Maps aren't balanced nor imbalanced, all depends on team.

JQ is a balanced maps, it is symmetric maps, even the Turtle and Juggie use the same pathing to the base.

AB, only 2/5 is favour Kurzick and 2/5 favour Luxon, Saltspray are even ground.(the 4th map you talking about is the same as Grenz Frontier and 5th map was a bug and it is heavily favour Luxon as Ancestral Land for Kurzick)

Not sure why other PvP map appear in a Alliances thread.

BTW the stair you mention is a non-issue, a lot of good assasin can shadow step to that place and kill the interupter or barrager that hitting the Mine. And you can have a necro or mesmer use degen on the ranger as well. It can be counter.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Aug 21, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

The only times I have lost on the luxon side in the last two days (About 39 games) were two times when we had four monks. Other than that I just monked the turtles.

The main thing you have to do is hold the gates on the Kurzick side. That has become close to impossible.

Then there is the issue where you can't hand the amber over to the gatekeepers if there is so much as one enemy standing next to them. I took a touch ranger and had a very fun time inside the green gate. It wasn't breached, but because I was running around in there the gatekeepers wouldn't accept the amber. All they had were warriors who couldn't even hit me. So basically one man beat the Kurzicks because they couldn't repair their gates. Because of this once the green gate is gone the kurzicks almost always lose. Seldomly do they make it past that.

They need to fix that. Gatekeepers won't accept amber nor will Gunther if they are wanding someone that got inside. Also Ive seen Gatekeepers extend outside the green gate and get killed so I couldn't repair the gates.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 21, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Uhh, have you thoroughly checked the map?
Between the Inner and Outer Gate, there's a stair which causes Rangers to be able to snipe the Mines and Kill the Turtle once it breached the gate (It comes closer and in range of you, it'll try to kill you which makes it very easy to interupt). Kurzicks win if they have a few monks and interrupt/trap Rangers, which are DEFENSIVE builds, like they should play. I see too many Mending Whammos in FA, they're the worst kind everywhere else but they still think FA is a good place for them.

No they don't win if they just have them. You can shoot form where ever you want, but the time it takes to get from one spot to another will make it so all the necro has to do is walk to the other side.

And once agian you go to prove my point. The Kurzicks need specific builds rather than the Luxons who just need a build that works.

Quote:

JQ is imbalanced to the Kurzicks, and boring as hell so the Luxons are never there.

Care to explain how? Because I win as much on the Luxon side as the Kurzick. I don't blame them for not going there. I mean why do it when there is a imbalanced map with more faction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

They need to fix that. Gatekeepers won't accept amber nor will Gunther if they are wanding someone that got inside. Also Ive seen Gatekeepers extend outside the green gate and get killed so I couldn't repair the gates.

I have seen the Keepers clear out to the mines before. One time we lost completely because Gunther chased someone outside the fort. There are just so many tricks you can use.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 21, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

The Luxons do need specific builds, but they are the ones that people commonly play.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 22, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

The Luxons do need specific builds, but they are the ones that people commonly play.

Ummm....no. You just need a decent build. I have seen luxons win with some rather average builds. Even ones I haven't seen before. I play both sides frequently and I got tons of Amber and Jade to show for it. There is no contest.

Kurzick's skill list is just too exact. You can't get that accuracy in a random arena. I have taken just about each of my characters in and every time there is always something I can't combat. If you could pick your teams then I might buy the "Bring X build", but in a random arena it just isn't going to happen.

The only skill that may be even close to critical is WoPr or a strip of some kind. Just for kicks I took Well of Profane on my monk(Normally a Mo/Me) and 3 into death magic with some rather good results.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 22, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

Ummm....no. You just need a decent build. I have seen luxons win with some rather average builds. Even ones I haven't seen before. I play both sides frequently and I got tons of Amber and Jade to show for it. There is no contest.

Kurzick's skill list is just too exact. You can't get that accuracy in a random arena. I have taken just about each of my characters in and every time there is always something I can't combat. If you could pick your teams then I might buy the "Bring X build", but in a random arena it just isn't going to happen.

The only skill that may be even close to critical is WoPr or a strip of some kind. Just for kicks I took Well of Profane on my monk(Normally a Mo/Me) and 3 into death magic with some rather good results.

If you play a spirit spammer on the Luxon side, you are going to have some issues. Kurzicks do not need a "specific" skill set, they just need to build much more defensively than they do now. If there is that one "X build" that you know the Kurzicks REALLY need, take that build. You have no excuse now that PvP characters can access the area.

WoPr, as already discussed earlier, has myriad counters and is not even close to being an essential skill. Putting it on your monk is really just a waste of a skill slot.

LoyalSoldier · Aug 22, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

If you play a spirit spammer on the Luxon side, you are going to have some issues. Kurzicks do not need a "specific" skill set, they just need to build much more defensively than they do now. If there is that one "X build" that you know the Kurzicks REALLY need, take that build. You have no excuse now that PvP characters can access the area.

One man can't do the whole job. Even if I bring my boon prot, there is no sure fire way to know there is going to be a second one to defend the other side.

Strange from what you say it sounds like they need specific skills. I mean you said the Kurzicks could win if they have a spirit spamming Rit, a bonding monk, a interupter of some kind, ect. To me it sounds like you are building a GvG team of some sort. Don't forget you need someone who can take the mines and kill the turtles. So I guess you do need some offesive power after all.

I have no excuse because I don't need one. The map is unbalanced! You can sit here and tell me solutions I have already thought of all you want. I know they don't work so well in practice as they do in theory.

As I have said I play both sides frequently and can see the difference quite easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

WoPr, as already discussed earlier, has myriad counters and is not even close to being an essential skill. Putting it on your monk is really just a waste of a skill slot.

Considering I don't have to bring a rez, I got an extra skill slot over my normal monk build so I was messing around with the possible outcomes. Which you missed the point of it anyways.

There are tons of blind spots a necro can sit in and as I pointed out before you don't even need to be a primary necro. If you place 4 into death magic the well lasts for 11 seconds. A warrior could even bring it if he really wanted to. You only need to get one off to screw up a gate.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 22, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

I never said they could win. I said they could hold back the NPC assault and then some. The obvious counter to that is to remove the enchantments on the bonded NPC gate defender, and the obvious counter to that is to prevent the enchantment remover from casting the removal spell.

Just because you think that the map is unfair does not make it unfair. The fact is that the players on the Kurzick side need to learn to be more defensive, period. You say you "know" how they work in practice, and it's obvious you don't. I'm just going to stop arguing now, because you don't seem to know what you're talking about, and further more, you repeatedly twist what I say into something stupid in order to bolster your own arguments.

Goodbye, and feel free to continue ranting in response to this post. I'm not listening anymore.