Curse

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 15, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

reaches turtle? wth are you talking about? i almost never seen that happen

Seriously I dont know what some of you people are doing in Aspenwood. Some claim to never have gotten Juggernaughts to respawn. Granted, it's not often where that door is breached and protected long enough for someone to fix that door to respawn them. It still happens enough times though, so some of you must have really horrible luck on bad teams.

And now Ira claims to almost never have seen a Juggernaught even fighting a turtle?! So every freaking team that you're on is so bad that they cant even survive long enough for the Juggernaught to get to the turtle?

It's no wonder some of you are complaining. Either you have horrible luck with teams or just...well I dont want to flame...

Ira Blinks · Aug 15, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

so basically everyone who opposes your opinion is either very unlucky or just plain suck? If you don't want to flame you should've not written this post.

AW Lore · Aug 15, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

reaches turtle? wth are you talking about? i almost never seen that happen

for the first time, i have to agree with your post ira, it has been so long since i have seen a "flipped turtle". i usually see a "Corpse of Kurzick Juggernaut" either by the stairs or a few feets away from a turtle.

Childeofmalkav:
a juggernaut is not invincible, it can be taken out easily by a mesmer with degen as the jugger is slow, and wont catch a mesmer even without a speed boost, second, the juggernaut will go to atack the turtle once he gets hit by their cannon, ignoring anything and everything on his way, this means luxon pc warriors, rangers, casters, and the npcs will have free time to unload their damage on them, and if the juggernaut gets bodyblocked...

Dravyn · Aug 15, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Heh..i love this debate.

Aspen is heavily slanted in Luxon's favor, and the only ones denying it are usually Luxon players. A few things that need to be changed - these are my biggest gripes:

Kurzick NPC's are idiots. They are extremely docile and will stand in one spot to be sieged/nuked/arrowed to death without responding to a ranged attacker. Luxon NPC's do not act this way, even the ones stationed at minds/spawns will respond to a threat and even chase for a short distance. Don't even look in that turtle's direction threateningly..you'll have four luxon warriors climbing down your throat.

NPC respawn - once the gatekeepers are engaged, there is no respawning npc no matter how many truckloads of amber your bring in, because they simply will not take it. This leaves the 8 Kurzick's and their three gatekeepers vs two rapid fire, point blank firing (another gripe) high damage siege turtles, 8 highly aggressive, focus spiking luxon warriors, and 8 luxon players.

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 15, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

so basically everyone who opposes your opinion is either very unlucky or just plain suck? If you don't want to flame you should've not written this post.

Hey I didnt say suck but since you brought it up.... I mean come on. It's not just my opinion but I find it baffling that your teams cant even keep the juggernaut alive to even fight the turtles.

And to AW Lore, I never said that the Juggernauts were invincible. Dont make dumbass assumptions that I did. I agree that Juggernaughts need a little work. And that they could add another one, but complaining about the Juggernaughts not being able to reach the turtle is not the fault of the ANET's design.

If you can seem to protect the Juggernauts long enough for it to even reach the turtle that's right in front of the damn gate then there's no hope for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Aspen is heavily slanted in Luxon's favor, and the only ones denying it are usually Luxon players.

Im Kurzick. But what does it really matter? I dont mind people trying to make the mission more balanced but some of you are going into extremes. It is NOT heavily imbalanced. I've seen too many complaints about the Kurzick side that has nothing to do with the design of the mission, it's just that some of you dont know what you're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Kurzick NPC's are idiots. They are extremely docile and will stand in one spot to be sieged/nuked/arrowed to death without responding to a ranged attacker. Luxon NPC's do not act this way, even the ones stationed at minds/spawns will respond to a threat and even chase for a short distance. Don't even look in that turtle's direction threateningly..you'll have four luxon warriors climbing down your throat.

And Luxon NPCs are smart? Do you really want your NPC chasing a single player halfway across the map? That's how people are exploiting the bug mentioned in this thread in the first place. Do you really want the Kurzick NPCs to chase people instead of guarding their post? You're complaining about a problem that actually helps the Kurzick side and hurts the Luxons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

NPC respawn - once the gatekeepers are engaged, there is no respawning npc no matter how many truckloads of amber your bring in, because they simply will not take it.

This is the only valid point that you've brought up. It's very annoying and unfair that Gatekeepers wont take amber while under attack. This leaves no room for a comeback when Luxons reach this point. This should be changed so that the gatekeepers take amber even under attack.

AW Lore · Aug 15, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

If you can seem to protect the Juggernauts long enough for it to even reach the turtle that's right in front of the damn gate then there's no hope for you.

so, how i am supposed to protect a juggernaut when i am a mesmer? and the team consists of 3 warriors, 2 necros, 1 ele, 1 assasin and me?

btw, the turtles arent "right in front of the damn gate", they shot from a far, from quite a distance, the juggernaut is slow, the 4 npc warriors will engage him if there are no other kurzick players around, there is a ranger with poison arrow shooting happily at the juggernaut. and lets not forget that there is another turtle plus 4 warriors plus other luxon players incoming from the other gate.

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 15, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

so, how i am supposed to protect a juggernaut when i am a mesmer? and the team consists of 3 warriors, 2 necros, 1 ele, 1 assasin and me?

btw, the turtles arent "right in front of the damn gate", they shot from a far, from quite a distance, the juggernaut is slow, the 4 npc warriors will engage him if there are no other kurzick players around, there is a ranger with poison arrow shooting happily at the juggernaut. and lets not forget that there is another turtle plus 4 warriors plus other luxon players incoming from the other gate.

So your whole entire team, plus your NPCs cant clear a path from where the Juggernaut is, to the top of the stairs where the turtles usually station? If you dont have a monk, yes it's very hard to protect the juggernauts. But same goes for the other side. If the other side has no monk, it's easy to kill the turtles with degen.

I always make sure my team repair the gates as soon as possible, making it hard for the Luxons to rush in both sides. When a turtle does get as far as the stairs, I try to lure someone to the Juggernaut so that it comes out to kill the turtle. Usually I play a monk so I make sure to keep the Juggernaut alive to kill the turtle, I make sure he's the number one heal priority.

When I play a trapper, I trap the hell out of the gates. The luxon warriors dont do much when blinded and bleeding and poisoned. I leave the turtle for someone else to kill.

I would like another Juggernaut added though. And other small changes that I mentioned. But please guys, learn to play smarter.

AW Lore · Aug 15, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

So your whole entire team, plus your NPCs cant clear a path from where the Juggernaut is, to the top of the stairs where the turtles usually station?

i cant, as im trying to deal with a MM that is behind the turtle, two of the 3 warriors are trying to cap and run amber, the other warrior is trying to solo a luxon commander, the assasin and the elementalist are at the other gate walk, trying to hold the second turtle advancement, the two necros are in the fort trying to kill the MM, the 4 luxon npc warriors, the turtle, 3 more luxon players, as well as the minions. this without including the shots from the turtles

its hard to clear the path for the juggernaut in battles like that.

also remember that the turtle will kill the kurzick npcs before going forward, and the npcs inside the fort dont chase the enemies, they stand in their place until someone gets in their spell range, and by then, the turtle will have at least shot once at the primary teleport.

Quote:

I always make sure my team repair the gates as soon as possible, making it hard for the Luxons to rush in both sides.

even when its said before the start of the match to give the amber to the gatekeepers to repair gates, people will always give it to gunther.

about having an extra juggernaut, what about making it kinda like the eternal groove mission and link the juggernaut to the gatekeepers? one juggernaut per gatekeeper, and they will respawn, once killed, in 45-60 seconds (maybe more maybe less?) as long as the gatekeepers are alive.

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 15, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

It sounds like your team is far too scattered and unfocused, people should drop whatever they're doing as soon as the turtle gets inside the main base, and then go back to whatever they were doing after it's killed. Also, no one should be inside the main base unless it's being invaded. I've seen Monks sitting where the gatekeepers are the whole battle. That helps no one.

No one should be trying to gank the luxon commander. He'll just respawn as soon as someone kills the Kurzick NPCs that take his place. I do think that he should only respawn if the Luxons grab an amber or something.

SPIRIT OF THE SEA · Aug 15, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Rachel crow here spirit of the sea is my otehr char ty so much for putinng it on guru but i was banned for doing that so i sugest u stop doing it

AW Lore · Aug 16, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildeOfMalkav

It sounds like your team is far too scattered and unfocused, people should drop whatever they're doing as soon as the turtle gets inside the main base, and then go back to whatever they were doing after it's killed. Also, no one should be inside the main base unless it's being invaded. I've seen Monks sitting where the gatekeepers are the whole battle. That helps no one.

No one should be trying to gank the luxon commander. He'll just respawn as soon as someone kills the Kurzick NPCs that take his place. I do think that he should only respawn if the Luxons grab an amber or something.

and do you think they will listen? :insert rolling eyes emoticon here:

few will listen, but again, there are in the fort not only the turtle, but also its escorting npcs, and other pcs, and once the kurzick npcs are killed, its a 9v4 battle most of the times, if the players at the other gate fall back to help, the other turtle will freely walk and blast them once he gets in position.

there have been battles were everyone is in the fort fighting, the 8 of us against the 2 turtles, 8 npc warriors, and the 8 pc luxons, in those situations we have held it for a few minutes, but if someone goes to try to run amber by the time he gets back they will be atacking the gatekeepers, also, once the 4 luxon npc get together forming the 8 ganksquad team, the moment you step out of the teleporter you are dead in seconds.

pork soldier · Aug 16, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

If you want to talk about skill-based counters...

Unnatural Signet.

But how many people bring unnatural sig every time they play aspenwood? You and I might, but how many others? I haven't seen it used there once tbh and I've accrued something like ~150k luxon faction via the eoe bomb method.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 16, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

But how many people bring unnatural sig every time they play aspenwood? You and I might, but how many others? I haven't seen it used there once tbh and I've accrued something like ~150k luxon faction via the eoe bomb method.

Well, maybe Kurzicks should be bringing it more often. Discounting player stupidity, you have to see that the map IS balanced. It's just that the build so common to that part of the game give the Luxons an advantage. That's not the map that's imbalanced. That's the players.

Riotgear · Aug 16, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

The funny thing is that Kurzicks CAN use EOE to their advantage, just drop the thing up near the base exit portals, which can cause the entire warrior squad and anyone between the gates to get creamed. Then you're left with a turtle you can easily degen to death. Dropping it within range of another EOE will cause the first spirit to die, allowing you to "move" EOE out of range of Gunther. Or just have 0 Beast Mastery to replace it with a garbage 14-damage EOE instead.

The best thing to do in Aspenwood is generally just leverage the predictability of it all. The whole place is mostly whammos, barrage or poison arrow rangers, assassins, blood necros, and minion masters. No one brings hex removal. The warrior packs are prone to individual spiking and hexes, hit them with Rust and they'll get fragmented and start dropping like flies. Turtles need to be handled with high-damage spikes (because of turtle shell) or degeneration. Stick any competant ranger on them and they'll be degenerating constantly and never get the BFG off. Luxons often don't have a monk, making NPC slaughter fairly straight-forward. If they're healing the turtle, just interrupt it and focus on the warriors, which they can't actively monitor. Gimp their NPC advantage, and all they have is a terrain disadvantage because they have to run past an area infested with snipers to hit the main base.

Silver_Fang · Aug 16, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Well, maybe Kurzicks should be bringing it more often. Discounting player stupidity, you have to see that the map IS balanced. It's just that the build so common to that part of the game give the Luxons an advantage. That's not the map that's imbalanced. That's the players.

The map is not balance at all, unless kurzick got some better AI guard that dont stand there and take the full damage from the turtle.

you have 4 luxon warrior that are sync attacking on each side, once they reach the green gate, that is 8 warrior. juggie is pwoerful against turtle, but it got owned by the luxon warrior. Not only that, they can pull the juggie out of the fort and kill it.

if you want to test if it is imbalance or not, just activate the turtle and see if they can assualt the base on its own and see how many time it success without player interfere except telling it to move.

With a balance map, the chance of success assault should be around 40-60%.

Silver_Fang · Aug 16, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The funny thing is that Kurzicks CAN use EOE to their advantage, just drop the thing up near the base exit portals, which can cause the entire warrior squad and anyone between the gates to get creamed. Then you're left with a turtle you can easily degen to death. Dropping it within range of another EOE will cause the first spirit to die, allowing you to "move" EOE out of range of Gunther. Or just have 0 Beast Mastery to replace it with a garbage 14-damage EOE instead.

The best thing to do in Aspenwood is generally just leverage the predictability of it all. The whole place is mostly whammos, barrage or poison arrow rangers, assassins, blood necros, and minion masters. No one brings hex removal. The warrior packs are prone to individual spiking and hexes, hit them with Rust and they'll get fragmented and start dropping like flies. Turtles need to be handled with high-damage spikes (because of turtle shell) or degeneration. Stick any competant ranger on them and they'll be degenerating constantly and never get the BFG off. Luxons often don't have a monk, making NPC slaughter fairly straight-forward. If they're healing the turtle, just interrupt it and focus on the warriors, which they can't actively monitor. Gimp their NPC advantage, and all they have is a terrain disadvantage because they have to run past an area infested with snipers to hit the main base.

Yea, dropping it outside wont get you kill and the kurzick repawn point is closer to the turtle than the luxon. and about luxon dont have monk, ive seen monk and ritualist healing the turtle, and you dont even need a monk, just get a elementalist and blind, KD, or a shadow step assasin with KD, there you go.

hated · Aug 16, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

It's very unbalanced, I'll explain why so that no ones confused.

Basically the luxons have a simple job of destroying anything along their path, whereas the Kurzicks have to...

-Capture mines
-Hold the mines
-Run amber
-defend the npcs
-defend gunther
-respawn npcs

Solutions to this:

-Luxons are required to run amber as well, without it no new troops. After all they have a damn mine they should have to use it.
-If this is an impossiblity then when amber is given to gate guards all npcs along that route should be revived as well.
-Luxons squads are reduced to 2 warriors instead of 4, thereby forcing players to actively defend the turtle as well.
-kurzicks should be allowed to ressurect both or at least one gate guard, seeing as how in the face of a toucher both of them will die a horrible, bloody, molested death.

Just a few things I could think of that would make this map playable and viable for both sides. As it stands now between the constant leechers and lack of overall teamplay (which luxons need none of), playing FA is tedious, shoddy, and overall just not fun. And last time I checked that's why I play games, for fun.

Riotgear · Aug 16, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

and about luxon dont have monk, ive seen monk and ritualist healing the turtle, and you dont even need a monk, just get a elementalist and blind, KD, or a shadow step assasin with KD, there you go.

I said they're uncommon. I also said that if they're healing the turtle, go for the warrior pack. Once turtles breach into the main base, they start getting swarmed fast, and monks run into heavy harassment as well. Without the non-stop "Coward! THUMP THUMP THUMP" spam, getting rid of them at that point is significantly easier.

Blind elementalists are even less common than monks or healer rits, pretty much all of them are cookie-cutter fire nukers.

I'm not saying the map is balanced. It's not. I'm saying that most of the players in Aspenwood are extremely predictable and can be prepared for, so by playing smart you can still provide a major advantage. You can't trust other people to prepare for it, most Kurzick players run around like idiots playing deathmatch, and so do the Luxons, the difference is that the Luxons have a walking BFG and 4 annoying warriors. So focus solely on taking out their advantage, rather than taking out the players, and then you can let all the other zerglings on the map run into each other and die while the blue bar fills up.

Paperfly · Aug 16, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Another general comment:

Oh noes, there might not be any useful players on your team!

...Er, what? There's a way to guarantee at least one person on your team is useful! Play a useful build! Pull more than your weight, and statistically the win percentage of your team is going to go up just because you're in it. With some luck, others will get the idea and emulate you, and then we can have more skill-based competition where people realise how easy to kill or negate the NPCs actually are!

LoyalSoldier · Aug 16, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

There is also a glitch that I found where you can produce twice as many warriors per turtle. If you thought 4 was too much imagine 8 per turtle.