Curse

Ninna · Aug 15, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steehl

1 Juggernaught (Does Not Respawn)

Juggernaught *does* respawn if you repair the green door

I agree that the Kurzicks could use 1 more Jug

Matsumi · Aug 15, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Isn't it also a bug that somehow allows the luxon side to have something like 16 luxon warriors rush in at the same time? Sounds like a bug to me, but nobody says anything about it, they just laugh when it happens.

RTSFirebat · Aug 15, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Isn't it also a bug that somehow allows the luxon side to have something like 16 luxon warriors rush in at the same time? Sounds like a bug to me, but nobody says anything about it, they just laugh when it happens.

Never ever seen that happen, so I can't comment.

But even so, me (A Ranger) can solo 4 Luxon Warriors at once, so if the Kurzicks have good teamwork then its less of an issue.

Paperfly · Aug 15, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

A few notes on balance, since there's some obvious features on the Kurzick side people are ignoring:

Kurzick win if the game goes on long enough. In a vacuum, that's a huge advantage.

...The corollary to this is that Kurzick should never be allowed to win outright against non-AFK opposition. I'm talking camping the spawns, killing the commanders, all gates up and running refined amber levels of dominance. Note that this would happen a reasonable amount of time if the playing field were symmetrical (it happens fairly often in ABs, for instance). If a game were to last an hour and a half, Luxons should win it every time - that's the point of having the time limit in the first place!

To ensure this Luxons must have a nominal npc advantage. The map needs to be geared in such a way that if both sides have zero human players, the Luxon NPCs will beat the Kurzick NPCs before time runs out.

A second point of balance is spawn location. Kurzick spawn on prime real estate, and have the opportunity to push Luxon spawn right back by retaking the mines. Ultimately, the "infinite" resource of in-combat human players will influence the battlefield more than the "finite" NPCs will, so being able to place that resource where it'll come in most handy is pretty darn significant.

Note that spawn location is a "comeback" mechanism: The closer Luxons are to winning, the more the advantages of Kurzicks' spawning right on the battlefield kick in. This is a good thing, since it adds more adrenaline to the mix.

My personal opinion on Aspenwood? It's balanced, with maybe a 1-2% bias towards Luxons. In my considerable experience in multiple roles on both sides:

Both teams are scrubs - Kurzick assassins who gank commanders vs. Luxon stance tanks: 75%/25% in the Luxons' favour

Both teams are intermediates - straightforward bonders and competent mine-cappers on the Kurzick side, MMs and turtle-healers on the Luxon side: 35%/65% in the Kurzicks' favour

Both teams are experts - advanced bonders and interference-based casters on defense; spirit-spamming rangers and necro bond-strippers on offense: Now these are fun. I think I've only ever had ~10 games where there was this level of competence on both sides, and they all ended with a "gg" from all parties, usually with less than a minute's defense/offense separating the winner from the loser.

...52%/48% favouring Luxon, I think. Ask me again when the metagame shifts some more, I would've claimed the opposite a month ago! I call that as close to balanced as makes no difference.

PS: The obvious flaw with my analysis is the random-selection factor. To which I reply that at the moment it's less influential than the number of AFKs on each side; ask me again when that's fixed!

PPS: If you - a Kurzick - spend more than three minutes in a match fighting the Luxon Commanders, you count as one of the AFKs for the purposes of this analysis.

Edit: as a PPPS, if only to point out that no-one is as pedantic as I am when it comes to forum posts! - gazing over my figures one might rightly point out that if I've only played 10 top-level games I can't possibly post 52%/48% as a genuine percentage - it has to be a multiple of ten! To which I reply, "it's the vibe of the thing!" and call it a night.

Zakarr · Aug 15, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

My experience about Fort Aspeenwood is that Luxon will always win if both teams are newbies/n00bs. Kurzick will always need pretty good players to win especially if Luxon has monks. Luxon turtle squads are powerful and automatic. They will break the gates alone if no one stop them. Kurzick NPCs can't defend anything alone.

RTSFirebat · Aug 15, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

My experience about Fort Aspeenwood is that Luxon will always win if both teams are newbies/n00bs. Kurzick will always need pretty good players to win especially if Luxon has monks. Luxon turtle squads are powerful and automatic. They will break the gates alone if no one stop them. Kurzick NPCs can't defend anything alone.

Your pretty much right about that, which is why I love using my Ranger in Fort Aspenwood.

I use Posion Arrow, Pin Down, Distracting Shot to keep one or if I'm not under attack two Turtles stopped in their tracks and putting pressure on the Luxon monks.

I love distracting a Turtle, all they do is stand there confused waiting for distracting shot effects to wear.

Often I find even keeping one turle busy and not respawning or attacking and turn the tide.

Luxons need the turtles to win.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 15, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Juggernauts do respawn people. They are part of the Green Gate NPC group.

eternal pho · Aug 15, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

And don't forget you need some people taking care of bringin in the amber chunks.

pork soldier · Aug 15, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

OR you can have a shred of sportsmanship and just run a lot of amber/work together as a team. The map is balanced well, it's just that many players can't seem to see past "ZOMG atk teh red guyz yuo stupid nubs" or are just plain-out confused as to what is a good idea and what isn't.

Luxons win because they just need to kill enough, which takes less organization than preventing said stuff from being killed.

This is total garbage - you can win luxon side 95% of the time by just bringing a high level EoE and edge bombing the kurzicks into oblivion. With oath shot this guy is a real problem for the other team.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Aug 15, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

This is total garbage - you can win luxon side 95% of the time by just bringing a high level EoE and edge bombing the kurzicks into oblivion. With oath shot this guy is a real problem for the other team.

If you want to talk about skill-based counters...

Unnatural Signet.

aB- · Aug 15, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

The real advantage the Luxons have is that they can win more games faster than the Kurzicks can. The Kurzicks always have to play the match out until the end, wheras the Luxons can end the game before the time runs out. So in the sense of faction gained, the Luxons have an advantage.

Michel Longshorts · Aug 15, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

The real advantage the Luxons have is that they can win more games faster than the Kurzicks can. The Kurzicks always have to play the match out until the end, wheras the Luxons can end the game before the time runs out. So in the sense of faction gained, the Luxons have an advantage.

Amen to that.
A win yields the same amount of points for each side. On a time to points ratio the two sides are definately NOT balanced.

Other point was the rush noob. Luxons can rush in and bash stuff and win easily. If a Kurzick rushes to the luxons to beat them(sometimes forgetting the NPCs) they will usually die as Kurzicks require completely different tactics...
After all, it is a siege. If you want a tacticly balanced battle do Jade Quarry.

Crimso · Aug 15, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

luring the luxons warriors is an exploit but its like eoe killing all the kurzick npcs thats totally unbalanced.

SirJackassIII · Aug 15, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

The real advantage the Luxons have is that they can win more games faster than the Kurzicks can. The Kurzicks always have to play the match out until the end, wheras the Luxons can end the game before the time runs out. So in the sense of faction gained, the Luxons have an advantage.

You can speed it up you know.
Amber given to Gunther: +2%
Refined Amber from green Mine(seeing as some like to gank the Commanders): +4% (and I also think it reparis both outer and inner gate)

But yeah, keep on killing those commanders while we come in with 2 turtles. Can't remember how many times it happened we're walking into an empty base, attack Gunther and get the message "Purple/Orange Commander has been killed"...

Superdarth · Aug 15, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Cheating is for losers!

Steehl · Aug 15, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I have never, at least not to my knowledge, been part of a group that has repaired the green gate and thus respawned the Juggernaught. So that was news to me. However, what do the Luxons have to do to respawn the turtles? Nothing that I've seen from playing on the Luxon side. Personally I prefer playing on the Kurzick side even with the imbalance, I find it more fulfilling when my team does win.

So in light of this new information I'll change my suggestions to the following:

1) Turtles and their guards are on limited respawn OR the Luxons are required to perform some act such as run amber back to an NPC at their spawn point to respawn the turtles. (If I am wrong about this and they already have to do something please correct me)

OR

2) Kurzicks get another Juggernaught with the same respawn criteria as the Turtles and their guards.

Either of these would level the playing field a bit more, since once the Luxons get inside the green gate, especially if a turtle with guards is still alive, it's rare for the Kurzicks to pull off a victory. (This is only from my experience, I have been part of a team that DID win in that situation, but it was 1 win out of many losses)

Come to think of it, from doing quests and the mission (Singular because I did Unwaking Waters on the Kurzick side) on the Luxon side of things I don't recall ever seeing a lone Juggernaught. They're always in pairs or more.

SirJackassIII · Aug 15, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steehl

1) Turtles and their guards are on limited respawn OR the Luxons are required to perform some act such as run amber back to an NPC at their spawn point to respawn the turtles. (If I am wrong about this and they already have to do something please correct me)

Technically, they have to keep the Commanders alive, which are killed quite often. The monk doesn't really help though I personally have a harder time soloing the Kurzick Ranger + Necro then the Luxon Commander + Monk.

Also, you keep asking for more Juggernauts...do you have any idea how insanely powerful a Juggernaut is against a turtle? When he uses his Juggernaut Toss, the Turtle is knocked down for 5 seconds. As an added bonus, every hit on the turtle is then a Critical hit and ignores his Turtle shell. A quick Melandru's + Savage from my Ranger and the Turtle had lost ~230 HP, and I add some Apply Poison for shits and giggles..
Not that you need the Juggernaut to kill the Turtle, just stall it with Distracting and let the poison do the work...
A single Ranger can easily take down both Turtles, and can snipe both Mines from inside the fortress with a Longbow/Flatbow (another bug, I shoot through walls most of the time).

What also sucks for the Luxons, is when the Kurzicks have 2 bonders. Meaning the Luxons don't break down any gates if they don't have enchant removal (which is often the case). I'd say the % only goes up if Amber is brought to Gunther, since the Kurzicks were just camping inside doing nothing in that case. Luxons holding both Mines, no Kurzick going outside the gates, no way should either party win in those conditions.

Steehl · Aug 15, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I agree with your last statement 100%. If nothing is actually being done then nobody should win.

A lot of people have raised the point that certain builds can counter the turtles very easily, however they seem to ignore that the teams are randomly selected. While there is a chance you'll get an "anti-turtle" build in your group to balance things out, if you don't then you're pretty much S.O.L. unless the Luxons really screw up.

And while I was aware that the Luxons need the command points it's insanely easy for them to just take them back as they respawn after a failed attempt at invasion. While for the Kurzicks to take control they have to rely almost entirely on the static NPCs to defend the base. Either that or get lucky and have certain builds get randomly assigned to their side.

It's rather simple when broken down:

2 Random Teams (Meaning you can't say for sure if you'll have a counter build to anything on your team)

2 Different Winning Conditions (Hold out against an attack while collecting amber, at least that's how I see it, and Infiltrate the base and kill 1 NPC and his 2 guards.)

It appears to me that it's all in the NPCs that make it unbalanced. The Juggernaught doesn't even come into play unless something is right near the green gate while the turtles are able to attack anything and everything on the map.

Personally I don't care if anything changes, as I said I prefer playing on the Kurzick side and enjoying a victory that much more, I'm just making simple suggestions to alleviate the problems that are complained about.

AW Lore · Aug 15, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Also, you keep asking for more Juggernauts...do you have any idea how insanely powerful a Juggernaut is against a turtle? When he uses his Juggernaut Toss, the Turtle is knocked down for 5 seconds. As an added bonus, every hit on the turtle is then a Critical hit and ignores his Turtle shell. A quick Melandru's + Savage from my Ranger and the Turtle had lost ~230 HP, and I add some Apply Poison for shits and giggles..
Not that you need the Juggernaut to kill the Turtle, just stall it with Distracting and let the poison do the work...
A single Ranger can easily take down both Turtles, and can snipe both Mines from inside the fortress with a Longbow/Flatbow (another bug, I shoot through walls most of the time).

you are aware that, if the kurzick pc dont draw the npc luxon gank squad away from the turtle, the 4 luxon warriors can tear down the juggernaut, getting him to 50% of his life before he even reaches the turtle?

the juggernaut then, if lucky, flips the turtle upside down, only to be killed by the luxon npcs, and about the "massive damage" a juggernaut can inflict, dont forget the luxon npcs have staggering blow, wich inflicts weakness.

also, dont forget that if a ranger, or caster, attackes the juggernaut, he will chase the enemy all around the fort, sometimes even reaching the outer gates? unlike turtles, that will follow their exact path and wont stray far

question, whats the turtles+warriors respawn time?

Ira Blinks · Aug 15, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

reaches turtle? wth are you talking about? i almost never seen that happen