Curse

Gosu · Aug 23, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Ok people i don't know about you, but i am a little bit worried with the pace at which the pvp meta game is moving at. There are too many dramatic changes happening in very short spaces of time. We only got ritualists and sins a few months ago and now in like another two months we are going to have Paragons and dervish on our hands as well as the meta-game evolving yet again.

Anet have said that a game will apparently be coming out every six months, how can the casual pvper keep up or better yet how can newbies to the game catch up with the breakneck pace with which Anet and inevitably the pvp meta game is moving at.

I mean Sins and Ritualists have barely been digested into the playerbase community before we are getting more characters thrust upon us.

For example it took the player base community about half a year to figure out how to effectively use Mesmers. When the original game came out. Do some of the veteran players remember when Mesmers were getting alot of hate from the playerbase at one point in the past.

why don't things just slow down a bit or do people enjoy this type of fast pace of things, i know this won't happen.

I am probably talking rubbish as usual, and this post will get spammed, flamed , ignored and closed.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 23, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

It's a valid concern. I don't think we've figured out all the good builds possible with factions skills, and we're already about to get a whole lot more. In a time when new builds are constantly evolving and new high points are being reached, gameplay becomes much more dependent on what you brought to the match than what your actual play. The Factions metagame still hasn't really settled down, and I don't think it will before Factions releases.

The other thing that has me worried is the preview weekend. During the Factions preview weekends the new classes and skills needed a couple balance tweaks, but overall they fit well into PvP without being overpowered. In the Nightfall preview, the Paragon seemed like a second Ritualist (when the first didn't do great things for GvG) and the Dervish was just ridiculous. Builds that Arenanet clearly knew about (pre-mades!) were hideously overpowered and broke the ladder and PvP. If the weekends are any example of the 'balance' ANet has planned, we're looking at a sad sad PvP game once Nightfall releases.

Byron · Aug 23, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I've seen ritualists being used in lieux of a monk slot more and more - and not just for spirit spamming purposes. The weapon spells can be effective protection measures, more especially weapon of warding. I've been trying out a fast cast Restoration Me/Rt with elite e-management, and see potential in that line of thinking.

And for mesmers, I could see that class getting a big metagame expansion in the future. I think they are largely ignored because few people understand how to utilize them correctly; they might get re-appreciated with nightfall skills. Let's see the return of two mesmer teams, eh?

Loch · Aug 23, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

ANet won't slow things down, though. Their entire business model revolves around providing players with a completely new PvE experience every six months, and so there's no way they'll hold back with new professions and skills.

Another big problem, though, is how the short ladder season promotes ladder farming using builds designed for quick wins and losses. This makes it even more difficult to test out non-obvious aspects of new classes and skills, because that time you spent could have been better spent farming the ladder with a proven build.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 23, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

And for mesmers, I could see that class getting a big metagame expansion in the future. I think they are largely ignored because few people understand how to utilize them correctly; they might get re-appreciated with nightfall skills. Let's see the return of two mesmer teams, eh?

Not sure what you're talking about here. The uses of mesmers are widely known and a lot of good builds use them frequently. Dom guys have become less popular in the pure pressure and split metagame, but I see a lot of teams running illusion mesmers.

Gosu · Aug 23, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

i have to agree with you wasteland, I have had several discussions with some people in game about this and it doesn't bode well. The speculations you have made in your post are basically the same as my concerns, i think as time goes on the eternal quote that Arena-net made on their inital box cover was this.

"Your Skill will be your Legend" this is becoming less and less true by the month as you rightly said, builds seems to be determining outright winners despite what people say to the contrary. I don't know maybe they should change their slogan from "Your Skill will be your Legend" to "Your Skillbar will be your Legend"

I have to agree with your perceptions on the paragons and dervish classes they are horribly overpowered and could really cause problems in the game. But upon having a discussion with a few people the assumption is that Arenanet are deliberately doing this as a PR scheme, to make people see these overpowered builds and feel that that they will need to obtain them in order to stay on edge in the game.

Though I feel such a grandoise scheme probably isn't true, i feel these character are being implemented as Assassin's and Ritualists haven't made as big an impact in the GvG metagame as people might have thought. I choose to believe that these builds are being overpowered as this is Arena-nets way to make sure that their new implementations will have a dramatic impact in the game.

I am not sure how the pvp game will truly turn out when nightfall comes out but as you rightly said it is looking sad indeed.

Greedy Gus · Aug 23, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

What does it matter? Who cares if no one absolutely 'digests' the new professions past rit spirit spammers and aod assassins? There is nothing really lost, and you don't risk the game getting stale. As far as new players getting lost, that's ridiculous. The metagame doesn't affect them. Do they need to know that the metagame used to be spike 10 months ago, or heavy with dom mesmers 6 months ago?

Gosu · Aug 23, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

What does it matter? Who cares if no one absolutely 'digests' the new professions past rit spirit spammers and aod assassins? There is nothing really lost, and you don't risk the game getting stale. As far as new players getting lost, that's ridiculous. The metagame doesn't affect them. Do they need to know that the metagame used to be spike 10 months ago, or heavy with dom mesmers 6 months ago?

Maybe so, maybe no one cares.. All i am saying is why not give the meta-game time to stablise a bit better before implementing more dramatic changes.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 24, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

What does it matter? Who cares if no one absolutely 'digests' the new professions past rit spirit spammers and aod assassins? There is nothing really lost, and you don't risk the game getting stale. As far as new players getting lost, that's ridiculous. The metagame doesn't affect them. Do they need to know that the metagame used to be spike 10 months ago, or heavy with dom mesmers 6 months ago?

The problem with an unstable metagame is that wins tend to be based a lot on build, rather than what actions you take within a match. Arguably, the most stable time in the metagame was the last month of the GWWC season, with Gale warriors and OOB boon prots. Every good player knew the builds, every good player knew how to counter the builds, and there was very little new stuff being discovered. When every team can know all the possible builds and counters, matches really come down to player skill.

Compare that to the post-Factions game. You'd have wildly varying success with a given build from month to month, and people have to keep focusing on changing up their build in order to keep up with the constantly changing metagame. A lot of people seem to like this kind of gameplay, but I'm not one of them - I'd prefer wins and losses to be decided by actions taken once the match has begun.

People who are more into build creation probably get more fun out of an unstable metagame.

Byron · Aug 24, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Not sure what you're talking about here. The uses of mesmers are widely known and a lot of good builds use them frequently.

Yes, in the high-end gameplay, mesmers are aprreciated fully. I guess I should have specified that it was a general statement of PvP affairs.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 24, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

thumpway>mesmers.

and we all know thumpway dominates.

JiggyFly · Aug 24, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Heh come out with expansions slow and PvE will get old,dull and boring, come out with expansions fast and you get an unstable PvP metagame. Anets got themselves in a pickle alright.

Elrodien · Aug 24, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I think that the PvP metagame moves pretty slowly. I remember when no-one took necromancers to Tombs (and now look at them), and it took ages before they were implemented properly as a viable PvP choice. The Ritualist has barely been tapped PvP wise, as there is a lot more to a Rit than just spirit spamming. The poor old Assasin still hasn't found his pvp feet yet, and yet they are bringing two brand new professions to the game in a few months time.

This rate of change will bring a certain amount of chaos to the PvP metagame, and it will be a case of evolve or die as stated in the OP. Some will like this, some won't. I, personally, think the Rit and Sin haven't been given enough time to make their mark on the PvP game.

Anet can't sustain 2 new professions per expansion though can they??

sno · Aug 24, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

thumpway>mesmers.

and we all know thumpway dominates.

Mesmers and tactics > thumpway. A good balanced group can rape the monks in a thumpway team, because they simply don't have any backline protection. They rely on their hideous damage output to roll the opposition and push them back so they can't make a push on their defense. If you simply push in and spike down their monks over and over, they crack in a heartbeat.

[/offtopic]

Anywho... if something isn't changed drastically with the dervish, there will be no evolving. It will be death to guild wars, end of story.

LightningHell · Aug 24, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

I think that the PvP metagame moves pretty slowly. I remember when no-one took necromancers to Tombs (and now look at them), and it took ages before they were implemented properly as a viable PvP choice. The Ritualist has barely been tapped PvP wise, as there is a lot more to a Rit than just spirit spamming. The poor old Assasin still hasn't found his pvp feet yet, and yet they are bringing two brand new professions to the game in a few months time.

This rate of change will bring a certain amount of chaos to the PvP metagame, and it will be a case of evolve or die as stated in the OP. Some will like this, some won't. I, personally, think the Rit and Sin haven't been given enough time to make their mark on the PvP game.

Anet can't sustain 2 new professions per expansion though can they??

Assassins don't have a role in PvP?

*Doesn't know what you're talking about*

Elrodien · Aug 24, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Assassins don't have a role in PvP?

*Doesn't know what you're talking about*

When did you see an Assasin in Heroes Ascent last? They are rare in GvG, and TA and the only place I see them in any abundance is Alliance Battles and Random Arenas.

I never said they didnt have a role, but they certainly don't get used much.

JR · Aug 24, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

When did you see an Assasin in Heroes Ascent last? They are rare in GvG, and TA and the only place I see them in any abundance is Alliance Battles and Random Arenas.

I never said they didnt have a role, but they certainly don't get used much.

I can think of a few times that I have seen HA balanced builds running an assassin; most notable would be Brehon. They aren't very common there, due to the nature of HA, but they are there.

If you think Assassins are rare in GvG, then you are waay off point. They are about as common as anything but Monks and Warriors these days. Try watching more observer mode.

yesitsrob · Aug 24, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Mesmers and tactics > thumpway. A good balanced group can rape the monks in a thumpway team, because they simply don't have any backline protection. They rely on their hideous damage output to roll the opposition and push them back so they can't make a push on their defense. If you simply push in and spike down their monks over and over, they crack in a heartbeat.

[/offtopic]

Anywho... if something isn't changed drastically with the dervish, there will be no evolving. It will be death to guild wars, end of story.

On the thumpway thing, I firmly think if you are taking the time to kill their monks due to their lack of defense, then they will break you before you break them. Thumpway has a good 7-8 rather offensive melee efforts that can do with being shutting down. And I really think you're better off dedicating a lot to stopping their offense - the necro is always a good one to kill, since he is awfully good at punishing you for using certain viable thumper counters (putrid > killing pets, balling in wards causes an immense amount of damage etc... ).

With enough pressure on their thumpers and their necro, and if your build contains what I would consider needed counters for the most of it then you'll be fine... I don't think tactics alone is going to beat the offense of thumpway and I think if you don't have enough defense in your build you will lose.

Running a dedicated curse necro with aoe skills such as Shadow of fear, wreckless haste and what not can pretty much help in allowing you to roll them in 6 minutes rather than the other way round

Arkantos · Aug 24, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

If you think Assassins are rare in GvG, then you are waay off point. They are about as common as anything but Monks and Warriors these days. Try watching more observer mode.

QFT. Whenever my guild gvg's an organised guild, theres usually an assassin in it.

Elrodien · Aug 24, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

So you reckon the Assasin and Rit are fully matured, fully exploited professions in the PvP arena as that was the original point I was trying to make??