Curse

TeeGee · Sep 04, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

The problem with Expertise is that it creates lots of abusing possibilities. Thumpers and Touchers are not overpowered, but as someone said before - for every profession that has good "skills" there is R/x variant with expertise. Be it R/A, R/N, R/P or anything.

This makes Anet to count possible Expertise abuse with every single new skill they make. With more and more new professions it might lead to huge problems with balancing. Also this may lead to nerfing skills that aren't overpowered but can be used by rangers with to big effectivness. Like last Blackout nerf - it's not good when mesmers (or any other class) recieves nerf to some skill only because ranger can abuse it. I don't want Touches or IB to be nerfed nor Distortion.

Also Expertise is very strong primary attribute as it is. It offers lots of good skills to use and has powerfull passive effect. Compare it to Fastacasting - it also gives powerful (but not so powerful as Expertise tbh) effect that can be used by other profs. Yet it has few, and relatively weak skills. Divine favor has very strong effect and gives great skills - therefore it works only on monks. From that comparision it's easy to see that expertise is very, very good - maybe even overpowered.

It's not that I think that current R/x characters are too good. It's that it may cause problems in future and lead to new unfair nerfs. I think that making it work less on non-ranger skills is not that bad idea.

neoflame · Sep 04, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Eles would be by far better monks than real monks... wait, isnt this exactly what we have right now with ranger?

Uh, no. You'd be right if you couldn't run necro primary for anything because a R/N was always better, or if warriors were garbage because a R/W was always better, but this is not the case - there's 1 build archetype for each of these classes where a ranger primary is better (life-stealing touches, and hammer DPS with pet). See Ether Prodigy, Heal Party.

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 04, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Uh, no. You'd be right if you couldn't run necro primary for anything because a R/N was always better, or if warriors were garbage because a R/W was always better, but this is not the case - there's 1 build archetype for each of these classes where a ranger primary is better (life-stealing touches, and hammer DPS with pet). See Ether Prodigy, Heal Party.

I'm not sure where you going with this...
R/N can not do everything N/X can (or same for warrior)? Sure, whatever... That doesn't make my point weaker. He still can do better at touch skills, which are necro skills.

Still I would like you to answer how hypothetical situation with elemental attunement working on all spells is not a fair comparison. I think there is no doubt that this change would make ele attunement ridiculously overpowered. How come Expertise having the same effect on skills is fine?

ChildeOfMalkav · Sep 04, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

something that doesn't suit you well isn't garbage. If "high level" (notice quotes) PvP is more important for you then it is your problem. I am way more conserned about balance in random arenas and you are not an ANet employee to tell me it is less important issue.
And don't you threaten me please, I am immune to all that online muscle play altogether.

Still ban evading eh, Ira Blinks? I'm pretty sick of your garbage posts as well. You bring up "facts" that arent facts but are just your own garbage opinions that you try to pass as facts. And when you do try to give out facts, they are almost always wrong or in the wrong context.

The fact that you're concerned about balance in random arenas just proves that you're a joke. Being that it's RANDOM, any consistant balance you try to achieve in the RA is pointless and impossible. If I have to explain to you why, which I probably do, you really have no clue.

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Anyone who seriously thinks touchers are overpowered has serious issues. Thumpers I would agree with, but for the love of god not touchers, which are nothing more than a mindless RA gimmick. If the thread continues debating such a ridiculous notion I'll have to throw the shackles on it.

-JR

minor · Sep 04, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

If anet feels that expertise needs to be changed for skill design and such i can understand that it can cause problems.
As for thumpers being overpowered i ask......
Why didn't i see a lot of them in the Championships?
IQ and the others aren't smart enough to realize they are overpowered and use them?

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

As for thumpers being overpowered i ask......
Why didn't i see a lot of them in the Championships?
IQ and the others aren't smart enough to realize they are overpowered and use them?

Kriegar from Te said they expected EW to be running Thumpers when they loaded up on Fire Map.

And the simple fact is there is a huge difference between ladder play and tournament play. Hell, iQ GOT to the tournament by running Thumpers in the three day event. Just because they didn't run them there really doesn't change anything.

Ristaron · Sep 04, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

Expertise is the single best primary attribute in my very own humble non-top 1000, 0-Ranked opinion because it makes certain skills absolutely cost-free and thus encouraging spam. Spam normally gets punished by returning an empty energy-bar but in the case of Rangers it's almost free. That's why you notice hordes of touchers and thumpers in the Arenas. Basing their threat/abuse on their vulnerability, like degen/diversion (toucher) or physical attacks/warrior hate (thumper) is no argument. A thumper might lack the damage a warrior can inflict but he puts more pressure on a target and brings the cheapest-guardian hate you can have: Irresistible Blow. When you play a Hammer Warrior you really know you can't or shouldn't spam it because you also need to have energy for crushing blow. While you have to rely on your 2 energy pipes, a thumper has 3 and reduces their cost with attributes invested into expertise. It makes the hammer warrior feel a bit dispensable pressure-wise. I am very aware that in a adrenaline-spike he'll be superior but why should a primary class pay more for its own skills than the other?

Expertise needs to get reworked, not the skills themselves. Not Irresistible Blow/Crushing Blow, Vampiric Touch etc...but its effect on skills which do not belong to the ranger profession.

Wrong. Expertise is perfect the way it is, the skills that are being abused need to be changed.
How to fix the problems that are annoying you:
Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Gaze should be SKILLS, not spells.
Irresistable Blow needs a longer recharge, or it needs to cost adrenaline and not energy (preferrably the former). An alternative solution is to apply those changes to Crushing Blow, or to both skills.

I reitterate: Expertise is perfect the way it is.

P.S. I skipped all posts but the first one, so if those suggested changed have already been suggested they've now been quoted for truth.

Rera · Sep 04, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

I'm not sure where you going with this...
R/N can not do everything N/X can (or same for warrior)? Sure, whatever... That doesn't make my point weaker. He still can do better at touch skills, which are necro skills.

His point was clear to me, I'm not sure why you don't see it. You should at least have gotten his final point: eles make better heal party spammers than monks, so should eles be nerfed also?

And as for expertise being overpowered ... how about that Mysticism? >_>

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

How to fix the problems that are annoying you:
Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Gaze should be SKILLS, not spells.

I think you have this backwards, Vampiric Bite and Vampiric Touch ARE skills, and as such are effected by expertise. Vapiric Gaze is a spell, and therefore isn't.

If you really wanted to 'nerf' touch rangers in a sensible manner, simply take out duplicate skills such as Vampiric Bite. They are largely pointless, and vastly overused in the case of touch Rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Irresistable Blow needs a longer recharge, or it needs to cost adrenaline and not energy (preferrably the former). An alternative solution is to apply those changes to Crushing Blow, or to both skills.

It isn't Irresistible Blow that makes thumpers overpowered. It is the ability to spam Tigers Fury, and through that spam Bash. Irresistible is great on a thumper don't get me wrong, I wouldn't run one without it right now. However, neither do I think that making it slightly less viable would really hurt thumpers, at least not in a way that would also make it useless on a Hammer Warrior. Crushing Blow is fine.

I don't honestly yet know how you could tweak thumpers to be more balanced, without hurting Hammer Warriors or Beastmastery as a whole. It's a tricky problem, with no simple solution. The best I have yet to think of up to now would be making Tigers Fury black out adrenaline skills aswell. This has the interesting side effect of being a pretty big hit on IWAY, which I personally don't mind.

Lord Dark Genie · Sep 04, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

It isn't Irresistible Blow that makes thumpers overpowered. It is the ability to spam Tigers Fury, and through that spam Bash. Irresistible is great on a thumper don't get me wrong, I wouldn't run one without it right now. However, neither do I think that making it slightly less viable would really hurt thumpers, at least not in a way that would also make it useless on a Hammer Warrior. Crushing Blow is fine.

I don't honestly yet know how you could tweak thumpers to be more balanced, without hurting Hammer Warriors or Beastmastery as a whole. It's a tricky problem, with no simple solution. The best I have yet to think of up to now would be making Tigers Fury black out adrenaline skills aswell. This has the interesting side effect of being a pretty big hit on IWAY, which I personally don't mind.

I think that an 6-8s recharge on IB would make it less spammable on thumpers while not hurting hammer wars much.
Another option could be to move it to strength while keeping it as a hammer attack (kinda like dwarven battle stance only works with hammers, or ripostes with swords)

Constant TF is a problem though. No drawback, constant IAS and it makes stance armor really good.
You already mentioned a possibility on TGH (removing adren), but I don't really like it. It's just gonna remove the skill from the game entirely IMO.

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

I think that an 6-8s recharge on IB would make it less spammable on thumpers while not hurting hammer wars much.
Another option could be to move it to strength while keeping it as a hammer attack (kinda like dwarven battle stance only works with hammers, or ripostes with swords)

Constant TF is a problem though. No drawback, constant IAS and it makes stance armor really good.
You already mentioned a possibility on TGH (removing adren), but I don't really like it. It's just gonna remove the skill from the game entirely IMO.

I agree. As I said; it's a tricky problem and I can't really think of any flawless solution to it at the moment.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 04, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Longer recharge on TF would nerf thumpers. Probably 20s like the rest of the non-Frenzy IAS stances.

Skuld · Sep 04, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

People would take Bestial Fury too though wouldn't they and drop IB or Res sig?

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 04, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

People would take Bestial Fury too though wouldn't they and drop IB or Res sig?

Sure, but the build wouldn't be particularly strong then. The current thumper bar is extremely tight, and having to take another skill would weaken them tremendously.

Kyune · Sep 04, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Constant TF is a problem though. No drawback, constant IAS and it makes stance armor really good.

Well...it's more like, the build that we currently have as a context for seeing it as problematic uses the skill in such a way that the mini-blackout drawback is mostly inconsequential. The Blessed Light monks using Gift of Health are essentially doing the same thing.

I wouldn't call either skillbar to be particularly overpowered though--they are very good at what they do, but deficiencies in the builds make it quite possible to have too much of a good thing.

Undressed · Sep 04, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Wrong. Expertise is perfect the way it is, the skills that are being abused need to be changed.
How to fix the problems that are annoying you:
Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Gaze should be SKILLS, not spells.
Irresistable Blow needs a longer recharge, or it needs to cost adrenaline and not energy (preferrably the former). An alternative solution is to apply those changes to Crushing Blow, or to both skills.

I reitterate: Expertise is perfect the way it is.

P.S. I skipped all posts but the first one, so if those suggested changed have already been suggested they've now been quoted for truth.

Ewww, no. The skills are getting "abused" because of expertise. Why would you punish its owning class? Why should one class out of six (eight) determine or define their primary skills?

Thumpers are overpowered in the sense that they can be in an IAS 24/7 and inflict their chain more often than any warrior could dream of.

shardfenix · Sep 04, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Anyone who seriously thinks touchers are overpowered has serious issues. Thumpers I would agree with, but for the love of god not touchers, which are nothing more than a mindless RA gimmick.

How do you figure this?

Irresistable blow.

24 Unconditional Damage.
4 Second Secharge.
Occasional Knockdown
Max damage on it: around 80
costs 2 energy at 16 expertise

Vampyric Touch/Bite

71 Unconditional Damage.
Unpreventable Damage.
71 Life Gained on use.
2 second recharge.
costs 5 energy at 16 expertise
Has a factions copy for spamming.

Damage and health wise, touchers are 12 times better than thumpers. The only downside to a toucher is that it runs out of energy after killing 2-3 people. This is why I can't agree with people who think touchers are ok.

To be as good as a toucher, IB's damage has to be pumped up to +100 or so and costed slightly more than double its current cost. Oh, and it has to be unpreventable. And the recharge needs to be halved.

I will say that touchers are crap in organized play, but in Random Arenas and Alliance Battles, which I sometimes play because HA and GVG suck, touchers own every other build except cripshot and snare mesmers, which nobody plays because they're too busy trying to add variety to this very stale game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

How to fix the problems that are annoying you:
Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Gaze should be SKILLS, not spells.

How would changing the touch SKILLS to skills instead of spells work? Maybe we should make irresistable blow an attack while we're at it.
I know you mean change spells to skills, but then that would only nerf touch rangers...and this thread is about expertise. Expertise also affects warrior skills, assassin skills, paragon skills, dervish skills, and rit spirits. Having 16 expertise is like having dual attunes, but doesn't take up an elite slot.

Patrograd · Sep 05, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Damage and health wise, touchers are 12 times better than thumpers. The only downside to a toucher is that it runs out of energy after killing 2-3 people. This is why I can't agree with people who think touchers are ok.

To be as good as a toucher, IB's damage has to be pumped up to +100 or so and costed slightly more than double its current cost. Oh, and it has to be unpreventable. And the recharge needs to be halved.

I will say that touchers are crap in organized play, .

They are. I wonder why?:

The game needs a good solid intro build for players new to PVP, most of whom will start out in RA, and touchers gives them the opportunity to win some games, earn some faction, and all those other goodies that keep new players interested in PVP. its much the same deal as IWAY or VIM in HA, they serve the same sort of purpose, ideal for starting out but weak against organised teams.

The game needs these kinds of builds imo.

Thumpers on the other hand are a different issue, because even well organised, experienced and talented teams can go down under the pressure that thumpers spamming hammer bash generate. Even then I'm not convinced that expertise is really the issue causing the strength of the build and you dont want to nerf thumpers into oblivion imo.

moriz · Sep 05, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

making expertise have no effect on non-ranger skills is a bit drastic. however, making expertise do only 2% reduced energy cost per point sounds pretty good to me.

however, i am still no sure that touchers and thumpers are really all that overpowered. thumpers are essentially one trick ponies, and touchers.... you just ignore them and kill everyone else on their team, 'cause they almost NEVER carry rez sig.