Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 04, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

how exactly ranger skills are overpriced? 5-15 energy with +3 regen seems more than reasonable. Wanna see overpriced skills, go look at elementalist.

You have to look at the recharges. Almost all of the good ranger skills are things you really need to spam to be effective. A Ranger is worth taking because of skills like Savage Shot (5s recharge), Distracting Shot (10s), and Crippling Shot (1s.) If a ranger isn't able to spam those skills almost constantly, he's simply not worth taking compared to another character.

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 04, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You have to look at the recharges. Almost all of the good ranger skills are things you really need to spam to be effective. A Ranger is worth taking because of skills like Savage Shot (5s recharge), Distracting Shot (10s), and Crippling Shot (1s.) If a ranger isn't able to spam those skills almost constantly, he's simply not worth taking compared to another character.

ugh, i think not. Listed skills are powerful enough even taken as single shot. Why is ranger have to be able to spam them? Why monks have to bring skills from secondary to manage their energy and not just rely on boosted effectivenes from divine favor? Why ele spells are retardishly overpriced to begin with and completely unusable w/o attunements/ether prodigy/mesmer skills? Why is the hammer warrior can not use his own skills like ranger can?

I'm sorry, the whole "ranger is made to spam" argument makes no sense. If every ranger attack has to be done together with an attack skill, then why have ability to attack in the first place?
Ranger skills are pretty powerful as is. They do nice damage and add whole bunch of effects. I see no reason for them to be spammable as they are now. Why would you be able to use Barrage on every single one of your attacks? It's like giving Triple Chop 1s recharge time and 2 energy cost.

Like someone else already said if using secondary skills makes ranger better at it than a character with that primary, then there is something wrong with it.

And please dont tell me Expertise will be useless if changed. You dont even know what change would be. Besides ballance isnt a switch with only two positions "overpowered" and "plain suck", there is always something in the middle.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 04, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

the problem is, they're not overpowered. Thumpers are solid, but warriors work just as well. touch rangers are only useful in ra. what else is there?

shardfenix · Sep 04, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

1st off expertise doesn't make any skill cost free is just reduces the cost.

unless that skill happens to be one of the many ranger or warrior skills that give you energy back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

Touchers can be annoying but not game breaking in anyway.

If touchers are fine to you, maybe irresistable blow should be pumped up to 74 damage and costed at 15, then it would be equal to a touch skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

Same thing for thumpers, normal hammer wars still get lots of play. Thumpers have actually made the game change a bit(which was good imo) by making guardian not so good.

No, they made any form of blocking not so good. Unconditional damage on a melee attack is a no-no, especially if it causes knockdown.
[QUOTE=minor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Without Expertise, most ranger skills are also quite overpriced. They're priced around the use of Expertise, which is why you rarely see ranger skills used on a secondary.

Then the obvious nerf is to make expertise only work for ranger skills. From a creative standpoint, there is no reason a ranger should be an expert at life drain, or hammer attacks. That's the necromancer's or warrior's business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

It's in no way overpowered or broken, but for some reason a few players tend to regard it as such.

Have you ever considered that those players do this thing called "thinking." Maybe they're right.

tomcruisejr · Sep 04, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Expertise : For Y energy points that you save from using non-ranger skills , you lose Y health.

agree?

fallot · Sep 04, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Give caps for energy reduction when not using Ranger skills. For example, expertise cannot reduce the cost of a non-ranger skill beyond 4 energy, a 10 energy skill beyond 7 energy etc.

warriorsmiley · Sep 04, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

how exactly ranger skills are overpriced? 5-15 energy with +3 regen seems more than reasonable. Wanna see overpriced skills, go look at elementalist.

Thats why eles have energy storage and the best energy management elites in the game.Sure eles have 25 energy skills but when you have a pool of 80 energy that is nothing not to mention you will probable have some sort of attunement gaining most of that energy back. Where as if a ranger has 3 10 energy skills without expertise that is all his energy gone.

LightningHell · Sep 04, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by warriorsmiley

Thats why eles have energy storage and the best energy management elites in the game.Sure eles have 25 energy skills but when you have a pool of 80 energy that is nothing not to mention you will probable have some sort of attunement gaining most of that energy back. Where as if a ranger has 3 10 energy skills without expertise that is all his energy gone.

And look at our recharge times.

What do you mean, we have a pool of 80 energy so we can spam our 25e skills happily? That's just about as effective as a Warrior spamming...an 8-energy Power Attack?

'Course, we DO have Prodigy. :P

Not saying that I'm trying to tilt it to the Ranger's side, just putting things in an Elementalist's perspective.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 04, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Why monks have to bring skills from secondary to manage their energy and not just rely on boosted effectivenes from divine favor?

You don't, necessarily. It's possible to make a monk without a lot of energy management and still be effective (see the Blessed Light Mo/A or the WoH/Healing Light templates.) You see a lot of monks bringing energy management for several reasons - it strengthens them against energy denial and pressure tactics, and it allows them to use inefficent skills a lot more often. Booned Reversal isn't very efficent if you look at heal-per-energy, but it comes with a lot of features that make it worth running: quick cast, prot effect, and short recharge for those times when you're heavily pressured. Other boon prot spells work in a similar way. The inefficency of the spells catches up to you unless there is a lot of extra energy flowing in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Why ele spells are retardishly overpriced to begin with and completely unusable w/o attunements/ether prodigy/mesmer skills?

Ask Izzy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Why is the hammer warrior can not use his own skills like ranger can?

A hammer warrior can't spam Irresistable to the same degree as a ranger because he doesn't have Expertise. That's exactly what we're discussing in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

I'm sorry, the whole "ranger is made to spam" argument makes no sense. If every ranger attack has to be done together with an attack skill, then why have ability to attack in the first place?
Ranger skills are pretty powerful as is. They do nice damage and add whole bunch of effects. I see no reason for them to be spammable as they are now. Why would you be able to use Barrage on every single one of your attacks? It's like giving Triple Chop 1s recharge time and 2 energy cost.

The short answer to this is that the Cripshot + Apply template is balanced as-is and doesn't need a nerf. It's also one of the only template (aside from Melandrus guy) that's a ranger actually using primarily ranger skills. If you reduce the effectiveness of that template by nerfing Expertise, people won't run it in GvG and the ranger class will have no purpose. Game balance is a delicate thing, and once it's right there isn't any need to change it.

The longer answer is that support characters tend to come in two categories: those that spam skills, and those that don't spam skills.

Characters that spam skills typically have a lot of energy to spare, and help their time by putting out a lot of skills, each of which requires individual enemy attention. The perfect example is an air ele - he's only useful if almost all of his time is spent blinding warriors trying to unload adrenaline, spamming heal party to counter degen/AoE, drawing conditions off his allies, ect. None of those skills individually will make or break the game, but the frequency with which he can use them makes the air ele a worthwhile defensive character.

Support characters that don't spam are rare, but the best example is a Dom mesmer. Dom mesmers don't usually have any skills with a recharge of under 10s, but each of their skills individually has a lot of use, and properly applied they can shape the course of the battle with minimal casting. Zeroing out an enemy monk with power leak puts heavy pressure on their team and can even force them to retreat. Constantly blacking out a warrior can shutdown an adrenal spike. Diverting a key defensive skill like wards or Blinding Flash can make the difference between whether or not a team breaks. The Dom mesmer doesn't need to spam, because his skills are individually powerful enough to change the course of a battle.

Now let's look at the ranger. The 'money' skills on a standard ranger bar are Crippling Shot, Apply Poison, Savage Shot, Distracting Shot, and Debilitating Shot. Everything else is probably some form of self defense or speed buff. None of these skills will individually turn the tide of battle or guarantee in the way a dom mesmer can (though Distracting Shot on a Heal Party can come close.) They have a crucial role in the offense of a team, but the primary utility of these skills is that the ranger can keep firing them off. Increasing the recharge on Crippling Shot makes it a crappy snare that gets owned by Draw. Increasing the recharge on Debilitating Shot makes it a crappy version of Energy Burn. The power of these skills comes from they'll be hitting the enemy team constantly.

Now consider that without Expertise, rangers don't have any primary energy management that isn't crap. A mesmer can fill up their bar with skills like Power Drain and Drain Enchantment that provide utility + energy, but a ranger has only his 3 pips to work with.

In short, for a major Expertise nerf to remain balanced, ranger skills would need to be buffed to be the equivilant of Dom mesmer skills. Furthermore, the ranger would need to have non-elite skills available to manage energy without relying on Expertise.

And all pointlessly, because rangers using ranger skills are balanced as-is.

Patrograd · Sep 04, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Besides ballance isnt a switch with only two positions "overpowered" and "plain suck", there is always something in the middle.

Well, there are only 2 positions in competitive play, useful and not. The main issue with game balance currently is that there aren't enough competitively useful skills. The trouble with nerfing expertise is that you would significantly reduce the number of competitively useful skills, further narrowing the meta, which isnt a good thing.

Patrograd · Sep 04, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Then the obvious nerf is to make expertise only work for ranger skills. From a creative standpoint, there is no reason a ranger should be an expert at life drain, or hammer attacks. That's the necromancer's or warrior's business.
.

Well, this isnt roleplay or PVE, its PVP. I dont think anyone cares about the artistic or immersive effects of skill balance. All people care about is whether it works or not

TheOneMephisto · Sep 04, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The short answer to this is that the Cripshot + Apply template is balanced as-is and doesn't need a nerf. It's also one of the only template (aside from Melandrus guy) that's a ranger actually using primarily ranger skills. If you reduce the effectiveness of that template by nerfing Expertise, people won't run it in GvG and the ranger class will have no purpose. Game balance is a delicate thing, and once it's right there isn't any need to change it.

I have to say that ranger's actually have quite a few viable builds. Melandru's, cripshot, trapper (distortion and oath/whirling), and pure interrupter to some degree. That's more than I can say for the rit, ele amd sin.

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Post less garbage please.

-JR

(In relation to deleted posts from a certain user.)

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 04, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

something that doesn't suit you well isn't garbage. If "high level" (notice quotes) PvP is more important for you then it is your problem. I am way more conserned about balance in random arenas and you are not an ANet employee to tell me it is less important issue.
And don't you threaten me please, I am immune to all that online muscle play altogether.

JR · Sep 04, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

something that doesn't suit you well isn't garbage. If "high level" (notice quotes) PvP is more important for you then it is your problem. I am way more conserned about balance in random arenas and you are not an ANet employee to tell me it is less important issue.
And don't you threaten me please, I am immune to all that online muscle play altogether.

Your posts have been laughed off repeatedly allready, and for a good reason. If you wish to post about your awesome Crippling Shot Elementalist; do so elsewhere. This forum (and I am referring to Gladiators specifically here) has a strict zero tolerance policy on misinformation and nonsense. This matter is not up for debate, further posts on the matter shall be deleted.

Yours sincerely,
-JR

master_of_puppets · Sep 04, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

I think its 4% less energy for every point in expertise or something like that so maybe they should make it 3% less for non-ranger skills. Nothing over the top but it might make the lives of those annoying touchers and thumpers a bit harder. Maybe?

Greedy Gus · Sep 04, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Yeah, expertise is probably too powerful. Any class that has decent 'skills' rather than spells has seen good ranger/x builds spam them. R/N touchers, R/Me with blackout and mantra signet spam, R/W thumpers, R/P spear chuckers, R/A dagger guys before they got nerfed, and R/Rt spirit spammers in HA.

Until they change expertise, A-net is just going to have to be very careful when introducing powerful 'skills' on all new and existing professions, and probably have to nerf some existing ones like irresistable blow as they've done previously. However, they did give soul reaping an elegant nerf to balance it better, so who knows what they have up their sleeve for expertise.

warriorsmiley · Sep 04, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And look at our recharge times.

What do you mean, we have a pool of 80 energy so we can spam our 25e skills happily? That's just about as effective as a Warrior spamming...an 8-energy Power Attack?

'Course, we DO have Prodigy. :P

Not saying that I'm trying to tilt it to the Ranger's side, just putting things in an Elementalist's perspective.

Ele's have elemental attunement, attunements for each element, Glyph of energy, ether prodigy,and glyph of lesser energy. If a elementalist uses ele attune and the attunement of its magic line its getting back 80% of the spent energy back, is that not good enough to spam your spammable skills? Also ele's have high recharges for a reason how overpowered will meteor shower be if it can be cast every 20 heck even 30 seconds with glyph of energy so you dont get exhausted. Lets give lightening hammer the same recharge as lightening orb who cares about the extra 15 energy i have dual attunes. Or lets give Rodgorts Invocation a 5 second recharge 127 aoe fire damage and being set on fire for 3 seconds is in no way overpowered.

warriorsmiley · Sep 04, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

Every noob can spam non stop with unlimited energy. But I guess God forbid rangers to actually time their skills and bring secondary for replenishing energy... that would so horribly break them...

If you are talking touch rangers in RA please stop it there are many ways to deal with it. Its like i said earlier when you go into RA you have to be setup for the common builds your going to face there if you cant stand going against touch rangers then i suggest you start pvping else where.
You said any noob can sit there with unlimited energy spamming skills right. So if i go into RA with a ele with elemental attunement and air attunement and spam my blinding flash on every physical damage dealer i see does that make me noobs since i am getting back back 80% of my energy and i regen the rest of the energy spent naturally?

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 04, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

warriorsmiley
I think you missing the point here.

Attunements only work with spells of related attribute. Elemental attunement (which is elite) only works with spells related to the same primary profession. Together they use up 2 slots on your bar + can be stripped and by themselves take energy to cast. And ofcourse you need maxed out related attribute for them to last.

Expertise gives you 50%+ energy, but unlike attunements it does not use up your skill bar. It works with any skill of any profession. It can not be removed. It does not need maxed expertise attribute to always be there. It is immune to interrupts and failed attempts to cast.

Now even if we drop everything else and focus on only "any skill of any profession" part, that already makes expertise way overpowered. Imagine if elemental attunement would work with any spell in game! Eles would be by far better monks than real monks... wait, isnt this exactly what we have right now with ranger?
Isnt that exactly why touch rangers are overpowered? Not because it is impossible to kill them, but because they use necro skills better than real necros.

On the side note I could've argue about those changes to Rodgort's Invocation and MS you mentioned, but lets not turn this into another thread about eles.