Curse

nebuchanezzar · Jul 21, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by martian tristar

The thing that wasnt clear to me for the first couple of months owning GW (damn thats a while ago

), is that besides the 'deepwound causes target to lose 20% max health' also healing on a target with deepwound is reduced by 20% in efficiency.

Unless they changed the condition description I still dont see how this makes any sense. Why does losing 20% max health also implies reducing the heals you receive by 20%.... Yeah I know its fairly easy to make some kind of 'logical' deduction now, but if it were up to me this should be mentioned a bit more explicit.

I dont think it always did work right tbh. I seem to recall it getting fixed long ago. But I digress. The reduces healing by 20% confusion is what I was hoping to help.

Ok let say a monk casts orison on you for 50 Hp heal. Your back up to 500hp. The fight goes on a while and your hit with a DW and your health says 150 of 400. The monk casts Orison for 50Hp and your health now says 190 of 200. WTF you say I heal for 50. Well the deep wound is now kind of like a deep black hole. It says,"I still exist and need healing, so since Im a 5th(20%) im gonna take a 5th." When deep wound ends you get 100HP back and the 20% was all wasted on this imaginary health sink.
Does that help? That Deep Wound is a such a deep hole that 20% of your healing leaks out with his blood or something is a decent way to imagine it. Easy way to test is with Heal Signet or Signet of Devotion.

LouAl · Jul 21, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

^ ahh beat me to it, but here I go anyway...

It isn't *any* health related action that will kill you when your actual health is negative number, instead it is any health related action that nets you negative health.

For example:

If you are actually at -250 health (bar shows 1) because of a deep wound, Endure Pain expiring, changing to Sup Ruens, etc and you take 10 damage it takes you to -260 which will kill you.

Also, in the same situation (-250 actual health) and you are healed for 240 health it brings your actual health to -10, which again, is enough to kill you

However, if you are in the same situation (-250 actual health) and someone uses infuse health healing you for 320 health, your actual health will be 70 which is enough for you to survive. (infuse health does 138% of half the caster's current health, so yes it can)

I found this out with my warrior when I noticed that I was at 1 hlth with natural regen, but maintaining 1 hp, if I waited I could heal sig and be fine. But if I used heal sig immediately I would often die.

Side Note: I am not sure whether a spell like Healing Breeze, Watchful Spirit, Mending, etc will kill you or not, I have never tested it.

Carth` · Jul 22, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

If it was from a monk with divine favour, it probably would. Otherwise, I don't know.

kryshnysh · Jul 22, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Having mending already up or casting it at a point of negative health (not uncommon among runners) when endure pain expires will help you regenerate from that negative health faster and won't kill you. The divine favor bonus from a monk with Healing Breeze will.

Edit: For those unable to them together, this is a response to the above two posts.

Warskull · Jul 23, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

A few people have mentioned the 1 hp thing and this can be somewhat complex to explain. There is no such thing as free health or energy in guild wars. Whenever something increases your max health or energy it increases your current health or energy by the same amount. Whenever something reduces your max health or energy it reduces your current health or energy also.

This is best seen with endure pain. If you are at 50/500 HP and use endure pain to gain 300HP you are brought up to 350/800 HP. Over the course of endure pain you take damage and are dropped to 100/800 HP. When endure pain runs out you lose both 300 max health and 300 current health. This would take you to -200/500 HP. When in negative health your HP always displays as 1 and any hit will kill you. You have to be healed out of your negative health. So if you monk infuses you for 250 HP when he sees your health bar plummet. You are healed for 250, but 200 of that resolves the negative health taking you to 50/500 HP.

Deep wound is the same way. Since the attack damage is applied before the deep wound it is possible for the attack to not kill you, but the 20% HP reduction from deep wound to push you into negative health.

(SK)Pariah · Jul 23, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Honestly...I see a few issues here...and being the noob that I am, I'll probably get flak for it...but oh well, here we go.

First off...I don't see why warriors are the main focus of the deep wound issue here....Phantom pain + shattered delusions is an insane combo and is mesmer in nature.

Second of all... the 20% reduction in healing is so you can't rely on getting a deep wound and depend on an increase in overall healing (this was stated before but I thought it needed to be reinterated.) It deals with percentage based healing...not with the 'live or dead' scenario...

Third...the constant reference to healing while at negtive health deals with calls to 'am I alive or dead' issue. This is more of a coding issue, I'm sure...and the more you reference it...the more it'll get fixed. If you're at negative health, you should be dead. The call to check if you're dead or not apparently isn't addressed when Endure Pain ends...but maybe it should be. The only reason why you'd die when you get hit is because it calls up the 'are you dead or not' issue....and guess what....you're dead..

Lastly...I'm fairly sure Deep Wound will kill....I've run around in random arena with phantom pain + shatter delusions enough to know that this spike combo will kill. The only reason why I could see deep wound not killing is if shattered delusions was resolved after phantom pain, which would not only make no sense whatsoever, but also give me more of a spike...(60+ damage after a 20% reduction in health > afterwards)..

Feel free to debate this...but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on all points.

<edit>I've noticed the health bar not readjusting a lot more in pve than pvp, in fact, I've never noticed it in pvp...</edit>

Warskull · Jul 23, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by (SK)Pariah

Honestly...I see a few issues here...and being the noob that I am, I'll probably get flak for it...but oh well, here we go.

First off...I don't see why warriors are the main focus of the deep wound issue here....Phantom pain + shattered delusions is an insane combo and is mesmer in nature.

Second of all... the 20% reduction in healing is so you can't rely on getting a deep wound and depend on an increase in overall healing (this was stated before but I thought it needed to be reinterated.) It deals with percentage based healing...not with the 'live or dead' scenario...

Third...the constant reference to healing while at negtive health deals with calls to 'am I alive or dead' issue. This is more of a coding issue, I'm sure...and the more you reference it...the more it'll get fixed. If you're at negative health, you should be dead. The call to check if you're dead or not apparently isn't addressed when Endure Pain ends...but maybe it should be. The only reason why you'd die when you get hit is because it calls up the 'are you dead or not' issue....and guess what....you're dead..

Lastly...I'm fairly sure Deep Wound will kill....I've run around in random arena with phantom pain + shatter delusions enough to know that this spike combo will kill. The only reason why I could see deep wound not killing is if shattered delusions was resolved after phantom pain, which would not only make no sense whatsoever, but also give me more of a spike...(60+ damage after a 20% reduction in health > afterwards)..

Feel free to debate this...but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on all points.

<edit>I've noticed the health bar not readjusting a lot more in pve than pvp, in fact, I've never noticed it in pvp...</edit>

The deep wound itself won't ever kill. However if a deep wound pushes you into negative health you likely have less than one second to live. The situation where deep wound pushes you into negative health without the damage killing you is pretty uncommon also. It is a very specific window where deep wound usually isn't used.

The negative health isn't likely to ever change. It is simply one of game mechanics and it exists for a reason, just like negative energy.

Warriors have the most ways to apply a deep wound and are the most common source, using it in conjunction with adrenaline spikes.

A Leprechaun · Jul 23, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

hmmmm .....
i havent read the whole tread so shout at me if this question has already been posted
i know it drops you max hp, example - 500 down to 400, 400 down to 320, etc, etc but.....
Q. if you at half health does it drop your curent health down or just max health
example ~ a guy has 500 hp loses half his life ( ele or somthing) so he has 250 then gets hit by deep wound does this mean he has 150 life or that he still has 250 life but can only be healed up to 400??

hope that makes sense to you

~A Leprechaun~

JR · Jul 23, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Try reading the whole thread.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 23, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Eviscerate {E} ---> Executioner's Strike

As a mes/nec, getting hit by this combo in PvP arenas pretty much was a guarunteed kill on myself...

Does that make warriors too powerful? Nah, I find that running after snaring is the perfect way to keep warriors out of reach. After all, with SOOOO many ways to keep a warrior AWAY from you, there's no reason to say they're overpowered...

I think Siphon Speed is far and away the easiest anti-warrior snare in the game. With good Deadly Arts, you can keep a warrior running slow [and yourself running fast] for the entire game...]

socrlax24 · Jul 23, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Eviscerate {E} ---> Executioner's Strike

As a mes/nec, getting hit by this combo in PvP arenas pretty much was a guarunteed kill on myself...

Does that make warriors too powerful? Nah, I find that running after snaring is the perfect way to keep warriors out of reach. After all, with SOOOO many ways to keep a warrior AWAY from you, there's no reason to say they're overpowered...

I think Siphon Speed is far and away the easiest anti-warrior snare in the game. With good Deadly Arts, you can keep a warrior running slow [and yourself running fast] for the entire game...]

i saw someone post a few days ago that siphon speed doesnt even work correctly...like, it'll cast and all and give the person the hex, but their speed isnt reduced and yours isnt increased, i may be wrong, ive never used the skill, i'm just going off of what someone said

Satai Katalya · Jul 24, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

this is why I love the mesmer illusion combo images of remorse, conjure phantasm and accumulated pain (inflicts deep wound if 2 hexes are already on) 9 degen some wanding with deep wound= funny

TheOneMephisto · Jul 24, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by socrlax24

i saw someone post a few days ago that siphon speed doesnt even work correctly...like, it'll cast and all and give the person the hex, but their speed isnt reduced and yours isnt increased, i may be wrong, ive never used the skill, i'm just going off of what someone said

From my experience, your speed in increased but their speed stays the same.

kryshnysh · Jul 24, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by socrlax24

i saw someone post a few days ago that siphon speed doesnt even work correctly...like, it'll cast and all and give the person the hex, but their speed isnt reduced and yours isnt increased, i may be wrong, ive never used the skill, i'm just going off of what someone said

East to check, known bug, probably on guildwiki: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Siphon_Speed

Siphon speed gives you a speed boost, but doesn't snare.

fb2000 · Jul 24, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Not really - the main things that shut warriors down tend to be pretty fleeting, and the removals are a lot cheaper than the costs. A Blindbot or a hexer might be able to shutdown a warrior 1v1, but in the real world teams get to run Draw and Convert and quickly remove whatever gets thrown onto warriors.

The easiest class to shut down is probably an ele (water ele, specifically.) Ritualists would take the spot if there was any reason for Ritualists to stand within range of any kind of disruption. Some necro builds are also pretty easy to shut down, but the class as a whole has some nice tricks up its sleeve (OOB) which make some builds tougher to handle.

I don't understand this at all. How would changing Deep Wound force a change to necromancer sacrifice skills?

I meant not as a total shutdown, but a severe reduction in efficiency, be it a Guardian, ward vs melee, hex, blind/cripple, you get the idea. ritualist spirits are another way to cripple up the dmg dealing capability of our beloved warriors, in a rather annoying way (spammz0rn spirits 2 aggro away)

as for the saccing skills, my point was, if Deep wound wouldnt reduce hp based on the Max hp you have, why would saccing do the same? hmm kinda hard to explain what I mean, but its neither here, nor there, nothings gonna be changed regarding such basic engine elements imo

Lord Darkforge · Jul 24, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Great article, short, sweet, easy read. Thanks for the contribution.

JoDiamonds · Jul 24, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

The thing is that warriors are just about the only sustainable source of DPS. Even if they changed deepwound, most teams would still use warriors. The fact is that without warriors, your options are cut down. The only thing that changing the deepwound mechanic that would happen is that adrenaline spikes (and lots of other spikes) would lose power.

This is a fine argument in favor of weakening Deep Wound. If Warriors are still fine and great, then there's no major problem.

Of course, it would also make Deep Wound slightly more confusing, when it already causes issues. (The amount of damage inflicted by Deep Wound would be even more variable and unpredictable, leading to play confusion.)

Rikimaru · Jul 27, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

It was probably mentioned somewhere in the mass of posts, but I'll say it anyway.

I Don't think that's right, with the 20% deep wound damage "appearing to show up on the next hit". The HP bar works by a percentage. You reduce there maximum hit points by 20%, which does cause them to lose 20% health as if it were damage, but because the maximum health goes down an equal amount it still appears to be at the same level, because it is (percentage wise). So every hit after that makes a larger impact on the percentage, because you're still doing the same amount of damage to them, while they have less health in total. So each hit afterwards makes a bigger impact on the overall percentage, and appears to do more damage than before, while it really doesnt.

Also, an argument on Deep Wound being "too powerful" seems to be going on, so I'll respond to that.
While roughly 100 damage does seem to be a little crazy for how easily it can be caused, this is completely balanced out by the fact that it's inflicted by a "condition". That means that, unlike real damage, you can completely recover all of that health with a simple condition curing skil, which there are a lot of.

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 27, 2006, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

I Don't think that's right, with the 20% deep wound damage "appearing to show up on the next hit". The HP bar works by a percentage. You reduce there maximum hit points by 20%, which does cause them to lose 20% health as if it were damage, but because the maximum health goes down an equal amount it still appears to be at the same level, because it is (percentage wise). So every hit after that makes a larger impact on the percentage, because you're still doing the same amount of damage to them, while they have less health in total. So each hit afterwards makes a bigger impact on the overall percentage, and appears to do more damage than before, while it really doesnt.

Try putting a target at ~60% health with Gash and follow up with Final Thrust.

You'll notice that you get the bonus damage from Final Thrust even though the health bar appears to be at ~60%

Hand of Ruin · Jul 27, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

55 monks my friend.

In any case, although the mechanics you typed are correct, you forgot to mention one thing.

Whenever you get a deep wound, or fertile season dies, or vital blessing drops, you never go below 1 health. If you plan on killing someone by giving them a deep wound, give them a little degen to finish them off.

Actually, degen may not ensure death even at 1 hp. For some reason when you experience a drop in health due to a skill wearing off, any degen you have on you seems to be interrupted for about half a second. I know this because several times I have hit 1 hp with hexes on me, and was lucky enough for healing sig to finish in that half second or so when the degen was paused. I dont know if thats a bug or what though.