Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jul 17, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Never seen that happen from degen. Occasionally my health will stay at 1 for about a 1s period before I die from degen, but I always die shortly after I hit 1 HP. I assume that's just lag between the health the client is displaying and the server.

The only time I've seen what FB said duplicated is when using superior runes. If you put on a superior rune while you're at low health, you'll go below 1 HP but won't die. If you get a heal after that time you will die if you're still below 1 HP after the heal. Can be pretty entertaining to kill someone with a Word of Healing, but that's the only situation I've seen this repeated.

Will you die if you take damage while in negative health?

jktstance · Jul 17, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

I'm of the opinion that deep wound is simply too powerful the way it works currently, hence warriors being really the only option for powerful spikes as well as strong DPS (other classes can do one or the other, but simply cannot match warriors for both damage cases). In particular, I dislike how deep wound will actually "damage" you even if your health is not anywhere close to 100%.

In the OP, from how I would expect DW to work, when the target takes the 50 damage, he's at 450. Then DW is applied, which reduces his MAX HEALTH by 20%, bringing his max health to 400. Thus the target will "take" an extra 50 damage, bringing him to 400/400 health, not 350/400 health. Unless I'm completely mistaken. I just don't like how DW will take off ~100 health regardless of your current hp.

Aug · Jul 17, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

That's how Deep Wound should work, IMO, but it doesn't. Warriors are really good at spiking due to the mechanics of DW. I wonder how much GvG builds would change if DW mechanics were altered to only reduce the max health, and not your existing health unless it was over the "new" max.

socrlax24 · Jul 18, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

That's how Deep Wound should work, IMO, but it doesn't. Warriors are really good at spiking due to the mechanics of DW. I wonder how much GvG builds would change if DW mechanics were altered to only reduce the max health, and not your existing health unless it was over the "new" max.

a guild i was in a little bit ago called Sling Blade [Mmhm] ran a balanced spike with an earth shaker warrior and a eviscerate warrior, it was so powerful. the deep wound from eviscerate was the only reason it worked because for some reason our air ele could never seem to get their orb to actually hit. (i was monk)

shardfenix · Jul 18, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by socrlax24

this isnt really true, if it were, then Iway FS EoE bomb wouldnt work. but Iway FS EoE bomb does work, rendering your statment somewhat of a falacy

2 things
1: Iway's fertile/eoe bomb works because after fertile dies, you still have 8 melee damagers chasing your team's monks, also iway is kinda stupid, they die alot themselves to set off eoe.
2: Your spelling of "fallacy" is a falacy

Byron · Jul 18, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

I'm of the opinion that deep wound is simply too powerful the way it works currently, hence warriors being really the only option for powerful spikes as well as strong DPS

I respectfully disagree - a warrior applying a deep wound requires:
The proper amount of adrenaline and/or energy, and skill slots
Being in melee range
Being free of impediments (ie, hexes and/or blindness)
The enemy being free of enchantments or stances or wards that would evade or block the attack

That's asking a lot, IMHO. Deep wound is powerful, but it certainly isn't cheap; that's why a good portion of the metagame is dedicated to keeping warriors clean and enemies vulnerable against warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

you still have 8 melee damagers chasing your team's monks
Your spelling of "fallacy" is a falacy

I wouldn't be picky if you hadn't been - but there are only 4 warriors in most IWAY builds.

Kabale · Jul 18, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Good post, was trying myself to explain to people that the health loss is not apparent until the target takes damage after the deep wound is applied. Your wording sure made more sense than mine

And the reason above is why I want to have a mesmer put a discrete deep wound in via Accumulated Pain (with two non-degen hexes being applied previously) in a spike, before any of the damage comes. I feel it would be much better than pp/shatter, but harder to pull off.

jktstance · Jul 18, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

But still, most of the offense comes from warriors, even with teams bringing all of their anti-melee hexes and conditions. There are other options that are not affected by warrior hate, but most top teams still opt for warriors. I'm pretty sure all of you have read Ensign's thread about how crappy nuking is when compared to warriors, but I think it's still true and IMO much of warrior power is due to deep wound.

Eviscerate will slightly less than 100 damage to soft targets AND it applies a deep wound, effectively doing almost 200 damage in 1 hit, regardless of the target's current health. If deep wound functioned as it should work (not reducing the target's current hp by 20% of their max hp and just reducing max hp), I would be very interested in how teams adapt. Warriors would still be deadly, to be sure, but >250 damage spikes in less than a second from one character wouldn't be as easy to achieve.

I don't have a ton of GvG experience, so if I am completely wrong and deep wound is fine how it is, I would appreciate someone pointing it out :P

TheOneMephisto · Jul 18, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

But still, most of the offense comes from warriors, even with teams bringing all of their anti-melee hexes and conditions. There are other options that are not affected by warrior hate, but most top teams still opt for warriors. I'm pretty sure all of you have read Ensign's thread about how crappy nuking is when compared to warriors, but I think it's still true and IMO much of warrior power is due to deep wound.

Eviscerate will slightly less than 100 damage to soft targets AND it applies a deep wound, effectively doing almost 200 damage in 1 hit, regardless of the target's current health. If deep wound functioned as it should work (not reducing the target's current hp by 20% of their max hp and just reducing max hp), I would be very interested in how teams adapt. Warriors would still be deadly, to be sure, but >250 damage spikes in less than a second from one character wouldn't be as easy to achieve.

I don't have a ton of GvG experience, so if I am completely wrong and deep wound is fine how it is, I would appreciate someone pointing it out :P

The thing is that warriors are just about the only sustainable source of DPS. Even if they changed deepwound, most teams would still use warriors. The fact is that without warriors, your options are cut down. The only thing that changing the deepwound mechanic that would happen is that adrenaline spikes (and lots of other spikes) would lose power.

Of course, it makes sense that getting an arm cut off or something lowers your health by a decent amount.

socrlax24 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

2 things
1: Iway's fertile/eoe bomb works because after fertile dies, you still have 8 melee damagers chasing your team's monks, also iway is kinda stupid, they die alot themselves to set off eoe.
2: Your spelling of "fallacy" is a falacy

congradulations you can correct my spelling, but if you dont even know what iway is, dont even bother posting please.

Byron · Jul 19, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jktstance

If deep wound functioned as it should work (not reducing the target's current hp by 20% of their max hp and just reducing max hp), I would be very interested in how teams adapt.

Monks just wouldn't be as good...

The result would be logical, IMHO: less defense, more offense. That said, I think the game is too far along to have a fundamental concept "fixed."

fb2000 · Jul 19, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

oh crap, i hate getting database errors while posting in here :S

anyway, I always have been on the opinion that warriors are the easiest to severaly cripple/shutdown class, hence, I can hardly see how deepwound wound be overpowered. if it was to be changed in that manner, the necro sacrificing skills would have to be changed too, and that cannot be balanced in any possible way.

the staying on 1hp and suddenly dying has happened to me a lot, primarily on pve. say I run thru some group, use endure pain, get to some safe place. when endure ends, i end at say -150hp and im staying pretty at 1 hp. when i try to heal, 75% of the times I die right before I receive the + healing from heal sig

its another weird loop in the code imo.

and please, dont post such weird stuff: shardfenix saying how iways 8 warriors suicide so that eoe goes off, and a similarly amusing post about some leet mend condition skill..

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 20, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

anyway, I always have been on the opinion that warriors are the easiest to severaly cripple/shutdown class, hence, I can hardly see how deepwound wound be overpowered.

Not really - the main things that shut warriors down tend to be pretty fleeting, and the removals are a lot cheaper than the costs. A Blindbot or a hexer might be able to shutdown a warrior 1v1, but in the real world teams get to run Draw and Convert and quickly remove whatever gets thrown onto warriors.

The easiest class to shut down is probably an ele (water ele, specifically.) Ritualists would take the spot if there was any reason for Ritualists to stand within range of any kind of disruption. Some necro builds are also pretty easy to shut down, but the class as a whole has some nice tricks up its sleeve (OOB) which make some builds tougher to handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

if it was to be changed in that manner, the necro sacrificing skills would have to be changed too, and that cannot be balanced in any possible way.

I don't understand this at all. How would changing Deep Wound force a change to necromancer sacrifice skills?

martian tristar · Jul 20, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

The thing that wasnt clear to me for the first couple of months owning GW (damn thats a while ago

), is that besides the 'deepwound causes target to lose 20% max health' also healing on a target with deepwound is reduced by 20% in efficiency.

Unless they changed the condition description I still dont see how this makes any sense. Why does losing 20% max health also implies reducing the heals you receive by 20%.... Yeah I know its fairly easy to make some kind of 'logical' deduction now, but if it were up to me this should be mentioned a bit more explicit.

Metanoia · Jul 21, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Never seen that happen from degen. Occasionally my health will stay at 1 for about a 1s period before I die from degen, but I always die shortly after I hit 1 HP. I assume that's just lag between the health the client is displaying and the server.

The only time I've seen what FB said duplicated is when using superior runes. If you put on a superior rune while you're at low health, you'll go below 1 HP but won't die. If you get a heal after that time you will die if you're still below 1 HP after the heal. Can be pretty entertaining to kill someone with a Word of Healing, but that's the only situation I've seen this repeated.

That's because Deep Wound can't actually kill you on it's own.

Example: You have 100/500 HP and you're hit for 50 damage and suffer a Deep Wound. Your REAL HP would be 50/500, this is what everyone else sees on the HP bar above your head. The actual HP on your screen would be 1/400 (-50/400).

Any more damage will "trigger" the Deep Wound and kill you.

Note: Degen completely ignores 'non-triggered' Deep Wound. So, as far as Conjure Phantasm cares, you still have 5 more seconds to live (since your real HP is 50/500).

Mr Crapsicle · Jul 21, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I can tell you that I have found myself at 1 hp under more than one circumstance and have expired when trying to heal myself. Since I have been unable to ascertain the exact reason for this, I have found that the only way to avoid death by signet or casting is to let the natural regen begin before attempting a self heal. For some reason, it seems that any action related to healing while at one hp will cause death. Unfortunately, it's really not something than can be tested or proved, I can only say that this is what I have experienced and that I have experienced it enough to know what works for me.

My deep wound fun build -
target foe gets fevered dreams, phantom pain, shatter delusions
foes in area all get deep wound
mix in Virulence and epidemic for added fun.

Flopjack · Jul 21, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I see the 1 second delay when you die from degen too. However, if it is lag, you shouldn't be able to pre-cast a spell or signet that heals you so it ends during that 1 second to save you. If lag was true, that spell would be delayed that 1 second also.

Aisius · Jul 21, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Thanks for that info Warskull.

I really like deep wound the way it is when i play my warrior but then come to hate it when i play monk

Does anyone know how devine intervention is affected when placed on someone with deep wound ? would it still heal for the full amount? or would ten seconds not be long enough to negate the spike?

sheepysheepy · Jul 21, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

worth noting that due to living through negative health points caused by deep wounds it can be a long time before you get any of ur health back to natural regen

Magua · Jul 21, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Crapsicle

I can tell you that I have found myself at 1 hp under more than one circumstance and have expired when trying to heal myself. Since I have been unable to ascertain the exact reason for this, I have found that the only way to avoid death by signet or casting is to let the natural regen begin before attempting a self heal. For some reason, it seems that any action related to healing while at one hp will cause death. Unfortunately, it's really not something than can be tested or proved, I can only say that this is what I have experienced and that I have experienced it enough to know what works for me.

I think the reason behind it is you're not at 1 hp, rather less than 1 hp (due to endure pain wearing off or similar). This could take your hidden health to -250 or so, and therefore activating healing signet or WoH or anything else only actually heal for 130 to 190 ish, thereby giving you an actual health of -60 to -120 ish i.e. dead. Like you said, letting the natural regen kick in, to bring your health back to +2 or above is the only way of being sure before using healing. (on a side note, would infuse health more than make up for the -250 hidden health loss, and therefore not trigger the instant death?)