Curse

kvndoom · Sep 05, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Battle Rage would rock if it weren't for the severe penalty. But as it is, it's a PVE skill, and little more. Anet really needs to stop and focus heavily on reworking just about all their skills so classes won't be constantly forced into "one build to rule them all syndrome." In PVE you can play around with builds and still be succesful, but in PVP you're almost forced into cookie cutter builds because variation usually leads to lower efficiency.

I play Rit sometimes, and I know first hand what it feels like to be hit by Evis followed by Executioner's strike. ~260 damage, plus the 100 lost from deep wound. It hurts. It really, really hurts.

If Nightfall doesn't bring about a better elite than Eviscerate, then 2 sequels later peopel will still be using more or less the exact same build for adrenal spikes. Who even cares about hundreds of new skills every 6 months when most of them will suck?

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 06, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No one cares about boring DPS skills, let alone DPS elites.

I dunno, it seems like there are some DPS elites that see play. Tainted Flesh or, for a more relevant example, Dragon Slash.

Dragon Slash can't be run effectively with the best spike skill swords offer (Final Thrust), so using it actively cripples your spike. However, it allows you to use adrenal combos a lot more often, so it's a significant increase to your DPS. If you're trying to run the enemy monks out of energy it has its uses, and a Dragon Slasher can still pull off a decent spike, complete with Deep Wound.

It's not a skill that sees a whole lot of play, but it's useful in some builds.

Edit: To clarify, I agree with your assessment of Cleave. I just don't think DPS elites are inherently bad.

Divineshadows · Sep 06, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I dunno, it seems like there are some DPS elites that see play. Tainted Flesh or, for a more relevant example, Dragon Slash.

I had the same thought about dragon slash when I read Ensign's comment on DPS elites. Dragon slash is just too susceptible to blackout to make it desirable for me.

When it comes to DPS elites, ferocious strike sees much more play than dragon slash.

JR · Sep 06, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

When it comes to DPS elites, ferocious strike sees much more play than dragon slash.

I'm not sure I would really call Ferocious Strike a DPS elite, in the strict sense. It is more energy and adrenaline management, in my opinion.

Divineshadows · Sep 06, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I'm not sure I would really call Ferocious Strike a DPS elite, in the strict sense. It is more energy and adrenaline management, in my opinion.

Which in my mind directly translates to more DPS. This equates to more Tiger's Fury, more IB, and more hammer bash. More knockdowns and keeping the IAS up means higher DPS overall. Also, the built-in bonus damage from Ferocious is nice as well. The way I see it, ferocious allows the thumper to get away with what I consider a low level of expertise (I realize 9 is a breakpoint) meaning they get to have higher hammer mastery and higher beast bastery. Having higher attributes in both of these lines also equate to a higher DPS. Sure you can run backbreaker/crushing/brutal strike/IB or enraged/bash/crushing/IB instead (and in certain team builds it makes sense), but by passing on ferocious you're setting up a thumper which has lower DPS but a better spike.

overclocked · Sep 06, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

battle rage plus for great justice plus dark aura plus any attacks is still easier to heal then frenzy Eviscerate Exec because u have to react to like 300+ dmg in like 1 sec or less or the target dies because theres another war with final thrust commin.

JR · Sep 06, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Which in my mind directly translates to more DPS. This equates to more Tiger's Fury, more IB, and more hammer bash. More knockdowns and keeping the IAS up means higher DPS overall. Also, the built-in bonus damage from Ferocious is nice as well. The way I see it, ferocious allows the thumper to get away with what I consider a low level of expertise (I realize 9 is a breakpoint) meaning they get to have higher hammer mastery and higher beast bastery. Having higher attributes in both of these lines also equate to a higher DPS. Sure you can run backbreaker/crushing/brutal strike/IB or enraged/bash/crushing/IB instead (and in certain team builds it makes sense), but by passing on ferocious you're setting up a thumper which has lower DPS but a better spike.

When I said I didn't consider it a DPS elite in the strict sense, I really did mean the strict sense. Do you consider "To The Limit!" or "For Great Justice!" DPS skills? I don't. Your point is justified though, just a matter of definitions.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 06, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

enraged lunge: totally a dps elite. ferocious is much in the same vein, in that it is a spammable skill that gives an increase to DPS when activated.

kvndoom · Sep 06, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Yeah, Enraged is pretty sick. You use it every 5 seconds, and it alternates between +80 and +40. So realistically it averages out to a +60 attack every 5 seconds, which is why I always carry it over Ferocious. Unless a match just drags on FOREVER, I seldom run out of energy anyway. I can see why Ferocious would be better for GVG, but in TA it's way inferior to Enraged.

I'm truly surpised Swift Chop doesn't see more use. It's the axe equivalent of IB, and a Deep Wound if blocked is nothing at all to sneeze at.

But back on topic, Ensign put it best. If there were no Evis, axes wouldn't get used. Cleave is nice, but not nice enough.

Ensign · Sep 06, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I dunno, it seems like there are some DPS elites that see play. Tainted Flesh or, for a more relevant example, Dragon Slash.

When you put any skill on your bar you should be asking yourself what that skill will allow you to do, strategically and tactically, that you couldn't do before.

Tainted is a strong skill on several levels. It's not just the disease, it's the constant re-application of disease. Important effects are that targets are rarely at full health, which enhances any other damage that you throw at someone, and (perhaps more importantly) how thoroughly it overloads condition removal on its own. Any other conditions you want to apply are going to stick a whole lot better when mends and extinguish pull of disease which will come right back. Of course, the amount of pressure that comes out of Tainted is pretty nice too. =)

Dragon Slash is not just about +damage, it's about very fast adrenal spiking. When that character is running at full speed, he'll blast someone with Sever->Gash->Dragon, then turn around and Sever->Gash->Sun+Moon someone else without missing a beat. It lets you put out a ton of very focused damage frequently because of the raw amount of adrenaline it gives you. The skill is partially left aside because of how poor it fares against blackout...but I think it's ignored moreso because it is relatively weak in smaller fights or when overextending, which is a job a sword warrior traditionally excels at. A Dragon Slasher, in a sense, is a poor hammer warrior, job-wise.

What does putting Cleave on your bar enable you to do, tactically? Nothing. It's a fancy Power Attack. When Power Attack becomes something that you want to run, think about bringing Cleave. For Cleave, I think that'll be once it starts to deal around +60 damage per hit.

My point is that DPS is mostly a PvE idea, that's mostly important when figuring out how to kill those big bosses that you have to beat on for minutes at a time. Kinda like aggro control. DPS is not meaningless in PvP...but it's pretty far down on my list of things I'm looking for in skills. A skill is going to have to provide a downright scary amount of raw DPS for me to even consider it, and nothing that currently exists even comes close.

Or: way too much effort is being spent thinking about the DPS of skills when that sort of stuff is hardly relevant.

Peace,
-CxE

Thom Bangalter · Sep 06, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

When you put any skill on your bar you should be asking yourself what that skill will allow you to do, strategically and tactically, that you couldn't do before.

Tainted is a strong skill on several levels. It's not just the disease, it's the constant re-application of disease. Important effects are that targets are rarely at full health, which enhances any other damage that you throw at someone, and (perhaps more importantly) how thoroughly it overloads condition removal on its own. Any other conditions you want to apply are going to stick a whole lot better when mends and extinguish pull of disease which will come right back. Of course, the amount of pressure that comes out of Tainted is pretty nice too. =)

Dragon Slash is not just about +damage, it's about very fast adrenal spiking. When that character is running at full speed, he'll blast someone with Sever->Gash->Dragon, then turn around and Sever->Gash->Sun+Moon someone else without missing a beat. It lets you put out a ton of very focused damage frequently because of the raw amount of adrenaline it gives you. The skill is partially left aside because of how poor it fares against blackout...but I think it's ignored moreso because it is relatively weak in smaller fights or when overextending, which is a job a sword warrior traditionally excels at. A Dragon Slasher, in a sense, is a poor hammer warrior, job-wise.

What does putting Cleave on your bar enable you to do, tactically? Nothing. It's a fancy Power Attack. When Power Attack becomes something that you want to run, think about bringing Cleave. For Cleave, I think that'll be once it starts to deal around +60 damage per hit.

My point is that DPS is mostly a PvE idea, that's mostly important when figuring out how to kill those big bosses that you have to beat on for minutes at a time. Kinda like aggro control. DPS is not meaningless in PvP...but it's pretty far down on my list of things I'm looking for in skills. A skill is going to have to provide a downright scary amount of raw DPS for me to even consider it, and nothing that currently exists even comes close.

Or: way too much effort is being spent thinking about the DPS of skills when that sort of stuff is hardly relevant.

Peace,
-CxE

I think DPS has it's place in PvP when looking at melee-centric pressure builds. Tainted has pressure as far as DPS does, Thumpers have awesome DPS with both their IAS attacks, The application of Deepwound, and the pets running around with ferocious or enraged.

Off topic, enraged is always awesome, I almost always want it instead of ferocious unless I'm not running comfort for some reason.

Entropius · Sep 07, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

The correct comparison for Cleave isn't to Eviscerate but to Quivering Blade.

1) Quivering charges as fast as Cleave
2) Quivering does more damage than Cleave
3) Quivering has a secondary effect that can sometimes be useful (plague touch)
4) The nonelite axe skills you'd use with Cleave are worse than the nonelite sword skills that you'd use with Quivering

Basically, Cleave sucks. Even with the the high-end damage boost for it listed in ... uh, changes.txt ..., it still does less damage than quivering.

HolyHawk · Sep 07, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Battle rage is usable in pve, but definetelly not in pvp. Not as it is, that when you renew battle rage, it will drop all adrenaline. If they changed the the description to:

"When battle expires or if you use any non-attack skills, you lose all adrenaline", (when you renew sth, the skill 'ends', doesnt it? expire means finishing it's duration naturaly; using that concept to sugest how it should be reworked)

I would see this to be considerate to replace thumpers for a hammer warrior, given the running boost, and the amount of adrenaline doubled in exchange for the attack boost from tiger's fury. As a bonus, you get to use runes in hammer, and the inate strenght applyed to your attacks.

Blow Up Doll · Sep 07, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No one cares about boring DPS skills, let alone DPS elites. If Eviscerate stopped existing people wouldn't use Cleave, they'd use swords.

Wand Spike ftw

Eviserate is superior no question - DPS is practically irrelivent -potential damage output in about 1second is what is relevent. Battle Rage is a skill you might use with a sword war in randoms or pve or with a rapid adren. spike but not on an axe. i really wouldn't ever seriously consider it.

As soon as you start talking about mellee DPS im rolling a thumper - irresistable in particular is a good pressure spam skill. Cleave wouldn't even cross my mind.

Dzan · Sep 08, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I think DPS has it's place in PvP when looking at melee-centric pressure builds.

DPS matter in builds. It matters less so in individual skills. If you totally screw up and bring a skill that does 10% less dps than a similar skill, in a GVG you at least have 63 other skills, and personal play skill, to make up for the mistake.

i8work · Sep 08, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

I actually like dragon slash a lot, whilst it doesnt have the raw spike power of say envicerate and executioners the ability to sever/gash/dragon then change target and go sever/gash/sun and moon and be ready to spike again in a couple of hits is priceless in the right build ie where you have lots of casters waiting to punish the target you put the deep wound on.

Also I would have thought dragon slash would be good in splits because of the raw dps (when you factor in bleeding etc) it can generate.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 08, 2006, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by i8work

I actually like dragon slash a lot, whilst it doesnt have the raw spike power of say envicerate and executioners the ability to sever/gash/dragon then change target and go sever/gash/sun and moon and be ready to spike again in a couple of hits is priceless in the right build ie where you have lots of casters waiting to punish the target you put the deep wound on.

Also I would have thought dragon slash would be good in splits because of the raw dps (when you factor in bleeding etc) it can generate.

Advantages of Dragon Slash:

-High DPS and pretty decent spike.
-Able to almost immediately dish out a concentrated spike of damage at any time.
-Very energy light. Dragon Slashers usually run mostly adrenal skills, so they can afford to fit skills on their bar a normal warrior couldn't. We had a lot of success running Gale dragon slashers, for example.

Disadvantages:
-Not as good a spike as some warriors, and lacks the KD of a hammer war.
-Light in utility. Dragon Slashers have to pack a lot of adrenal skills to make their elite worthwhile, so they don't usually get to bring cool stuff like Bull's Strike.
-Vulnerability to Blackout. IMO, this is overstated by many. Blackout is a bit more irritating on a Dragon Slasher than on most warriors, but if they want to keep blacking out my dragon slasher they're basically devoting a character in trade for shutting down my warrior skills. There are far more effective ways to do that, which shut down or partially shut down autoattacks as well as weakening the effect of adrenal skills.

i8work · Sep 08, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Advantages of Dragon Slash:

-High DPS and pretty decent spike.
-Able to almost immediately dish out a concentrated spike of damage at any time.
-Very energy light. Dragon Slashers usually run mostly adrenal skills, so they can afford to fit skills on their bar a normal warrior couldn't. We had a lot of success running Gale dragon slashers, for example.

Disadvantages:
-Not as good a spike as some warriors, and lacks the KD of a hammer war.
-Light in utility. Dragon Slashers have to pack a lot of adrenal skills to make their elite worthwhile, so they don't usually get to bring cool stuff like Bull's Strike.
-Vulnerability to Blackout. IMO, this is overstated by many. Blackout is a bit more irritating on a Dragon Slasher than on most warriors, but if they want to keep blacking out my dragon slasher they're basically devoting a character in trade for shutting down my warrior skills. There are far more effective ways to do that, which shut down or partially shut down autoattacks as well as weakening the effect of adrenal skills.

Blackout irritation factor is definatly overstated, to gain 10 adren on a sword warrior is a lot easier than gaining enough to get virtually any decent hammer skill bar started.

my bar would probably be:

W/

dragon slash/sever/gash/sun and moon/frenzy/rush/ spare (bulls/gale/healing sig/purge signet) rez.

Patrograd · Sep 08, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Advantages of Dragon Slash:

-High DPS and pretty decent spike.
-Able to almost immediately dish out a concentrated spike of damage at any time.
-Very energy light. Dragon Slashers usually run mostly adrenal skills, so they can afford to fit skills on their bar a normal warrior couldn't. We had a lot of success running Gale dragon slashers, for example.

I think this is a fair assessment of Dragon Slash as a skill. For me it is a niche skill that fits certain builds, but not others.

For example, although it is a really nice pressure character for the front of a degen team for example, is it stronger in that role than a thumper? IMO a thumper deals more pressure than a dragon slasher, which would mean you would only include such a character if there was a strong tactical reason for doing so (the inclusion of gale as you said might be one good one, or a better ability to reactively split might be another). You might argue that the ability to suddenly and repeatedly spike down heavily weakened targets makes him strong in that role, and you'd be right I guess, but I think a thumper would get the targets down quicker overall.

Then in a spike build, well, a final thrust guy is surely better if you want to run a sword, although I dont personally think the axe/sword combination is anything like as strong as the axe/hammer combination for that purpose unless you really want the utility of that "free" elite on the sword warrior.

So overall I think its a really nice, but rather niche, skill. At least it is a useable sword elite, which is progress I guess.

Greedy Gus · Sep 08, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by i8work

Also I would have thought dragon slash would be good in splits because of the raw dps (when you factor in bleeding etc) it can generate.

I value utility much more in splits, like knockdowns, movement buffs/snares, healsigs, etc., which are much easier to fit on other warriors than dragon slashers.

Dragon slash wars are pretty backloaded in damage (take longer to get going), which is another reason I assume ensign says they're not good in splits/overextensions.