Curse

Greedy Gus · Sep 09, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Superiors do get you killed more easily, and max health reduction punishes you even more, since it does not take into account your lower health due to a superior when calculating. That much I don't know why you'd argue :|

No doubt. My point is that it's nearly irrelevant whether you have 520 HP or 595 HP, either way you're only going to die if you're being outbuilt (not having proper defenses against their spike) or if your monks are disabled or sloppy. You're generally going to die regardless of that extra 75 HP a lightning strike will cut through. That's what my point was about 'baseline HP' being around 500, that's around what a spike is going to do. If the average spike was 600 easily then there would be a different consensus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

I'm not saying WM should dictate what kind of runes to use, but they're a much better example to follow than some random guy on GWG.

Agreed. Which was why I didn't attempt to speak for the greater player base. Sure I'd like to say that all top players run sups whenever they feel like it, just like you claimed that 'any good pvp'er runs minors', but that would do a disservice to people trying to learn from this thread, and wouldn't be my place anyway to say what other people use.

All anyone can do is say what works for them, and maybe their guildmates, and lay their credentials out. Sup runes work fine for me, and I've been in the core and now leadership of a top 100 guild (top 50 when active) since November, and I write most of our builds and call most of our tactics. If that makes me a random guy from GWG, so be it. As far as your PUG spiking us out easily, I can't say I remember. We've lost 3 games in the lask week, 2 because of err 7s and once being outbuilded. As experienced pvp players know, deaths are common and ok, and I don't get worked up about spike deaths every now and then if we're still moving toward winning the overall battle.

Byron · Sep 09, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

My point is that it's nearly irrelevant whether you have 520 HP or 595 HP, either way you're only going to die if you're being outbuilt (not having proper defenses against their spike) or if your monks are disabled or sloppy.

I have to respectfully disagree there. Against pressure especially, 50 hp can make the difference between death penalty and a heal, and the HP advantages against spikes should be obvious. HP is likely superior to armor, as well, due to attacks that ignore armor (mesmer skills, or the damage bonus of warrior attack skills).

Now, I agree that in most cases the rune will not make the difference - the power of the build and the execution of the players will do that. However, in even, hardly fought matches, the extra HP could be the deciding factor, IMO.

Ensign · Sep 09, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I don't think you want to run superiors just to hit things harder. You want to run majors or superiors if you need the attribute points to hit critical breakpoints on your utility skills, rangers being the prime example with expertise. The extra HP that you're giving up is durability that is not worth giving up for a few extra points of damage or healing against a good team.

I personally spec my characters to use minors whenever possible, a major if neccessary, and swap up to superiors when I can afford it because I use a PvE character. Straight rolling a character, it's pretty rare that I'd use a superior in PvP.

EDIT - the penalty of superior runes becomes much more significant once a player has DP, or at VoD. If you have a PvE character, no big deal, you just swap it off at that point. But without rune swapping, those supers become huge liabilities at stages of the game that nearly all competitive matches go through.

Peace,
-CxE

Red Locust · Sep 09, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

For the sake of argument and being bored as hell on a saturday afternoon, I've compiled all of the most used skills from the mesmer, ele and necro lines, along with the changes when one goes from 14 spec to 16 spec:

Mesmer:
Dom:
blackout - nothing
e-burn/e-surge - nothing
diversion- 53s-59s
shame - 13e-15e
power leak - 24e-26e
cry - 42dmg-46dmg
Illusion:
most hexes get +3s duration, no change in pips of degen
illusion of haste – 10s-11s
distortion – nothing
Inspiration:
Who cares.

Ele:
Air:
orb – 96dmg-108dmg
strike, enervating – 47dmg-53dmg
windborne – nothing
blindflash – nothing
Water:
shard: 61dmg-69dmg, same duration
ice spikes: 71dmg-83dmg, same duration
deep freeze – 80dmg-90dmg, same duration
blurred, ice prison, armor of mist – 19s-21s
vapor blade – 113dmg-127dmg
Fire:
Just more damage from 14-16, nothing else.
Earth:
Who cares.

Necro:
Blood:
blood rit – nothing
siphon – 23s-25s
shadow strike – 46/46dmg-50/50dmg
gaze – 57dmg-63dmg
OoP – 15dmg-17dmg
Curses:
faint – 33s-37s
shadow fear – 42s-46s
parabond – 114-126
reckless – 19s-21s, 48%-52%
price – 28dmg-32dmg
malaise –33s-37s
desecrate – 19/56dmg-21/63dmg
defile flesh – 19s-21s
Death:
nova – 95dmg-105dmg
swarm – 76dmg-84dmg
putrid – 114dmg-126dmg
rotting flesh – 24s-26s
profane – 19s-21s
tainted – 42/14s-46/16s

Monk:
Divine:
boon – 67h-73h
b-light – 108h-122h
SoD – 94h-106h
Divine favor bonus: 45h-51h

Looking at that, the only thing I'd even consider using superiors on is a death necro, and even then I'd hesitate since the source of most of the pressure (disease, poison) just gets some meaningless increase in duration. Everything else has laughable bonuses past 14; odds are an extra 10dmg won't kill anyone but 75 less health might very well kill you, especially when facing heavy pressure where the monks need to play very conservatively.

All of the listed skills (and most other skills) have no significant breakpoints after 14+ spec. What makes them good is their effect, not the +10dmg they do with 2 more points in their respective spec. Rangers are really the only non-warrior class needing superiors, since a very high expertise is practically mandatory for them to be playable.

Monks benefit quite a bit from it, but they're also the most vital part of a team since two of them are keeping up 8 individuals, and if they both start going down, the team routs.

Frankly, I wouldn't consider it much of a "personal choice", I'd always want my casters to be using minors. 10% morale, health bonuses and the ability to swap to a minor would be the only way I'd run a superior.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 09, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

As Gus said, you are not looking at the difference between 14 and 16 in your highest attribute. On a support character, you're probably looking at the difference between having 12 in your highest attribute and speccing into another line entirely.

If I can drop 2 points out of Dom (bringing it to 10 base), that allows me to spec 9 points into an entirely different attribute. On an ele, that means I can bring a ward without issues. On a necro it means I can spec into prot and bring Aegis. In short, you're looking at entirely new skills that become available, not just a few minor changes to the numbers of the build you're running.

shardfenix · Sep 10, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

It's funny how you can tell who is a pve player and who is a pvp player on this thread.

Go with the superior + helmet on your weapon, 16 axe gives you higher attack skill damage, higher average damage, and higher chance of critical hits. A critical on a max eviscerate does somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 damage, so go for it.

Ensign · Sep 10, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

You can? Really? Based on what?

Peace,
-CxE

Patrograd · Sep 10, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I personally spec my characters to use minors whenever possible, a major if neccessary, and swap up to superiors when I can afford it because I use a PvE character. Straight rolling a character, it's pretty rare that I'd use a superior in PvP.

EDIT - the penalty of superior runes becomes much more significant once a player has DP, or at VoD. If you have a PvE character, no big deal, you just swap it off at that point. But without rune swapping, those supers become huge liabilities at stages of the game that nearly all competitive matches go through.

We have been having this discussion in our guild over recent weeks, where I have been pushing to run minors on warriors where the general concensus is to run superiors. We had a similar discussion here the other week too, with much the same result.

I was wondering what your view would be on this debate where you roll a PVP warrior. Superior, major or all minors?

yesitsrob · Sep 10, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

i run superior on my pve warrior, don't really think i should be doing though. There are times, albeit very very few times, when the attribute point spread is wide enough to warrant a superior.... this is very rarely the case on the vast majority of mesmer, ele, warrior, and monk builds I find myself running...

Superior on ranger seems quite acceptable to me since they have a huge attribute spread and getting 15 expertise for crip shot is always nice.

But running superiors for the sake of an extra 10 damage, or an extra 2 seconds, is far far from worth the 75hp penalty.

to me, the decision to run superiors does depend on how big of an attribute spread you want... now considering in most cases you'll only be speccing into around 3, then a superior is largely pointless.

Quote:

It's funny how you can tell who is a pve player and who is a pvp player on this thread.

?

Helll is for Heroes · Sep 10, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I personally put 16 into axe and only 14 into hammer.

I know that koreans never put sups or majors on their warriors whereas the europeans like to put superiors on everyone to buff their capabilities.

Blame the Monks · Sep 10, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I agree with Ensign. I typcially use minors on most casters unless I need to run a sup to hit a certain breakpoint. On wars I almost always run sups. On rangers I run sup if needed for expertise (thumpers etc I use minor). On midline casters my default is a minor unless I need a larger rune for a reason. On monks I precast on sup if a boon, then use minor. On Mo/A I use superior (because dark escape makes the health less important than it is on a softer caster) and other monks it depends on the build and the situation.

Of course, I'm just some random guy on GWG so don't mind me

Ensign · Sep 11, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I like superiors on warriors in HA and PvE, but not in GvG. Basically the more relevant DP and splitting up are, the more I dislike superiors. In HA, sure, a superior weapon attribute rune is worth 10% more damage on a low priority target. I'll take that. But in GvG, that -75 health is a significant liability on a character that will frequently extend deep into the enemy lines to achieve goals, well out of monk range. Every extra HP you have lets you push a bit further without dying, and that's more valuable than a small amount of damage.

Peace,
-CxE

Patrograd · Sep 11, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Thanks Ensign

TheOneMephisto · Sep 11, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I like superiors on warriors in HA and PvE, but not in GvG. Basically the more relevant DP and splitting up are, the more I dislike superiors. In HA, sure, a superior weapon attribute rune is worth 10% more damage on a low priority target. I'll take that. But in GvG, that -75 health is a significant liability on a character that will frequently extend deep into the enemy lines to achieve goals, well out of monk range. Every extra HP you have lets you push a bit further without dying, and that's more valuable than a small amount of damage.

Peace,
-CxE

Of course, if you have a PvE character than sups wiht swaps are all go, right?

Dragannia · Sep 12, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Running a Major on a Mesmer, I've found, is very helpful as most of the time they need to spread throughout Domination/Illusion, Inspiration, Fast Casting and Healing/Air magic (for Res Chant/Gale), and even with Domination frequently they'll run some in Illusion too, for Distortion. Using a Major or a Superior makes getting to that 14 breakpoint for Burn so much easier.

Patrograd · Sep 12, 2006, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Running a Major on a Mesmer, I've found, is very helpful as most of the time they need to spread throughout Domination/Illusion, Inspiration, Fast Casting and Healing/Air magic (for Res Chant/Gale), and even with Domination frequently they'll run some in Illusion too, for Distortion. Using a Major or a Superior makes getting to that 14 breakpoint for Burn so much easier.

I can see what you are getting at, but I think you have to ask whether for example it is actually worth having points in healing for rez chant, and is the difference between 9 inspiration and 10 inspiration worth 50 health?

I mean you could in that situation run this fairly typically memo and hit all the needed breakpoints with minors

Me_mo_test

Mesmer/Monk
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 7 (6+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (12+2)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)
Illusion Magic: 8 (7+1)
Healing Prayers: 3

- Energy Surge [Elite] (Domination Magic)
- Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
- Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
- Diversion (Domination Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)
- Distortion (Illusion Magic)
- Resurrection Chant (Healing Prayers)

if you needed 5 air for gale you could easily drop a point of fast casting to reach that break too. Its a matter of personal choice of course, but for me, especially when I am playing a mesmer (a high priority target for most teams) I want those HP pretty badly, much more than I want a 0.1 sec faster cast of esurge or an extra couple of % energy on the rezzed character for example.

LightningHell · Sep 12, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

is the difference between 9 inspiration and 10 inspiration worth 50 health?

It's 35 health now.

Dragannia · Sep 12, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Typically you'd want 9 in Fast Cast, with a fairly significant 0.3 second margin (fast-casting wise, anyway). In any case, as Lightning said, it's now -35, which honestly isn't all that bad considering the higher performance you'd get from even that single +1 attribute point.

Nadji · Sep 12, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Choice is Power.

IMO, sup or not sup mostly depends on the opponent team and their build.
The best way is not to use a sup or a minor, it's to choose the mod u want, when u want

as sup during gvg, and minor with DP or at VoD

Patrograd · Sep 12, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

It's 35 health now.

true enough

/doh