Curse

Vindexus · Aug 27, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Amazingly smart play on iQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

EvIL brings a build that is designed to run the other team around in circles using six teleporting characters, but has terrible healing. Playing into your opponent's hands is retarded. They didn't want a slugfest, so we forced one down their throats.

If making your opponent play your game and exploiting the holes in their strategy to win makes me lacking in skill, I'll wear that badge with pride.

Peace,
-CxE

Ensign is always right.

ubermancer · Aug 27, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

EDIT: Nevermind me.

BlueBlazer · Aug 28, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

IMO, iQ's VoD gank maneuver was quite a gamble. It leaves their Guild Lord fairly unprotected (between the 30:00-35:00 time frame, especially evident since iQ also lost their NPC advantage early on) when they went for ganking the other team's GL (or flag stand slugfest). In both occasions, iB and EvIL made the mistake of not sending a gank team to iQ's GL. Instead, they played right into iQ's 8vs8 slugfest tactic which iQ was clearly built for and thus have a upper hand during VoD.

Though iQ's maneuver may seem undesirable most of the times (heck, it'd be boring as hell to camp until VoD and let it be the deciding factor for every normal GvG match), this is afterall the championship and everyone in it is there to win it (at whatever cost necessary, as some may add). For that, iQ is rewarded the victory. Congratulations.

Clinically Proven · Aug 28, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Amazingly smart play.. [by] iQ.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Ensign is always right.

Up until last weekend I would've agreed with you... but, Finals, game 3....Ensign is occasionally wrong as it turns out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

We expected War Machine to split multiple people into our base from the beginning (which was incorrect)

Zeldawind · Aug 28, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Well ofc smart play bout iQ.
But i wanted to comment on the fact that EvIL is stubborn for not changing build. But i think they still got that image of their build in GW prohpecies. They had a freaking amazing build which they used over and over and they won GWWC the first season of GWFWC. Thats what they want to achieve again. But if they will succeed in that before nightfall. I seriously doubt it and then they can start all over again.

But gratz to iQ to bad bout the final, you win some you lose some thats life. But hey you still earned a freaking nice ammount of money.

just call me jimmy · Aug 28, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I will put my 2 cents in.
GVG is about skill and beating your opponent, not playing for the end of the game when everything is known isn;t it.
I mean lets look at other challenges of skill. Boxing if you don;t fight the ref forces you too or you loose points. Soccer hmm why not get the best 8 penalty kickers in the world. During the game just keep kicking the ball out of bounds. for 110 min and win at penalty shoot out.
There are simple reasons people and teams do not use strategies like this "Pride"
Don;t get me wrong a win is a win, but to say they beat Evil is a huge stretch. All they did was camp for 30 min becasue the new they could not beat Evil and set their build for a situation that was known.
To say Evil was arogant is a joke, do you realy think they assumed a team would base camp for 30 min. Also if you watch the match you will see tht IQ was almost done for but the morale boost got their rez sigs back.
This is GVG not "have a coffee with your guild lord for 30 min then fight"

my opinion

LightningHell · Aug 28, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

I will put my 2 cents in.
GVG is about skill and beating your opponent, not playing for the end of the game when everything is known isn;t it.
I mean lets look at other challenges of skill. Boxing if you don;t fight the ref forces you too or you loose points. Soccer hmm why not get the best 8 penalty kickers in the world. During the game just keep kicking the ball out of bounds. for 110 min and win at penalty shoot out.
There are simple reasons people and teams do not use strategies like this "Pride"
Don;t get me wrong a win is a win, but to say they beat Evil is a huge stretch. All they did was camp for 30 min becasue the new they could not beat Evil and set their build for a situation that was known.
To say Evil was arogant is a joke, do you realy think they assumed a team would base camp for 30 min. Also if you watch the match you will see tht IQ was almost done for but the morale boost got their rez sigs back.
This is GVG not "have a coffee with your guild lord for 30 min then fight"

my opinion

Camping at their guild lord was their strategy...and if I need to drink coffee with my Guild Lord for 30 mins to win, I'd do that.

The whole point of a GvG is to kill the opposing Guild Lord, by all means within the game. They did that, and so they won.

Thom · Aug 28, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

jimmy: Boxing and football both include strategies which involve wearing down the opponent while waiting for a situation that benefits them. You may not be able to completely withdraw, but you can play an incredibly passive game attempting to wear down the opponent. The end result is the same... you have a situation in which you have the advantage after a fairly boring period of play.

There are three periods in GvG which are well defined: Standard, VoD and Guild Lord March. Most good teams win or lose in VoD or the March, so what iQ did was ensure the inevidable. Since VoD is a significant part of the game, the fact that EvIL wasn't prepared is a significant failing. That is like playing a football match without anyone who can shoot penalties (or kick field goals). If you were playing England (a horrible penalty team :-P), it isn't such a bad strategy to take the game into penalty kicks.

Realize that iQ was surrendering an NPC advantage and morale advantage due to their strategy. They gave the opponent significant advantages and they still won. Camping happens all the time on the ladder, so to think that you were immune to a camping strategy is arrogant.

Here is where it gets juicy: iQ had already played this VoD build TWICE with the clear intent to play for VoD. They played the exact same build the match before, yet EvIL did not change anything after losing to the build. During the second game, iQ did indeed play and won in VoD with a significant disadvantage. Should we be suprised when the same thing happens in game three? EviL was exposed in VoD and was too arrogant to admit it, so they paid in the third match. iQ did the equivalant of a 30 minute camp twice before, so they should have fully expected a VoD build.

EvIL made two tactical errors as I have mentioned before: 1) they wasted the 30-35 minute period trying to go 8v8 when they had the best opportunity to use their split. 2) They allowed the late morale boost which put iQ over the top. You can pretend that the late morale boost was luck, but it was very intentional designed to splite EvIL when they needed to work together the most.

WM played 3 different builds and was respectful of what iQ could potentially do. iQ was likewise respectful of WM's ability. It is safe to say that iQ won the first game and lost the next two against WM on merit. EvIL had the same opportunity and skill to mix their builds, but their refusal to do so meant that they forfited a chance at victory.

Explain to me how "a win is a win" and "iQ didn't beat EvIL". The only possible alternative is that EvIL beat EvIL ... but "to say Evil was arogant (sic) is a joke."

anasazi sen · Aug 28, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

You know that the stuff Mark McGwire took during the final years of his baseball career were completely legal "supplements" at the time that no rules in baseball were written against. However they were later made illegal because nobody wanted to see baseball turn into a game full of 8 bulked out freaks and a pitcher. So you might be saying that since McGwire technically never did anything illegal that he's immune from criticism? Well that's just BS, he deserves criticism because he violated the spirit of the game that aims to keep things competitive, fair, fun for the fans, and leads to a "beautiful" style of play. When certain tactics make the game less beautiful, there need to be made new rules against those tactics, kind of like how FIFA needs to make new rules and penalties against the Catenaccio style of play.

Now I know the responses: perfectly valid tactics, play to win, nothing wrong with sitting in your base for 30 minutes, the game is/never was/shouldn't have to be "beautiful", and whatever else. However these types of responses merely confirm the type of attitude that hinders the growth of e-sports into at least a reasonable state of semi-legitimacy. If neither the players nor the spectators think that play should be beautiful and conform to the play-to-win mantra, then that hurts the game as a whole. If enough players and current spectators hold that opinion, e-sports will never be seen as legitimate, which is fine by me. However without even attempting to be seen as legitimate, players certainly can't demand more respect than they deserve and shouldn't be suprised if they are shown a general lack of respect.

BlueBlazer · Aug 28, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

To say that EvIL was arrogant because they didn't change their build when they could is just plain wrong. Anyone that have read before the interviews with EvIL would know that they prefer to play according to their strengths, rather than looking for their opponents' weaknesses. They're just trying to bring the play they know best to a higher level.

iQ realised that and capitalize on it. Kudos to them for that. However, that that's not a reason to brand EvIL as arrogant just because they stuck to their own style of play till the end. Doing so would just be plain wrong. Surely, EvIL has strongly influenced GuildWars GvG scene long enough to deserve more respect than that?

warriorsmiley · Aug 28, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

It's like most people said in this post already evenly matched teams matches usually get decided at the 40 minute mark. iQ walked out and saw Evil was playing there same build with the assassins that split off and kill npcs to gain the advantage at VOD. iQ made note of that and knew they couldnt stand up to such a deadly split so they did what would work for them and defended there npcs till VOD.

iQ was smart at the fact they didn't play Evil's game they played iQ's game. Ok so maybe the first 30 minutes of the match wasn't the best but they weren't there to give people back at home a great match to watch they were there to win the GWFC and bring the title to America for the 1st time. iQ just played to there strong points which is 8v8 not Evil's strong point which is stretching your team out till all your npc's are dead or one of your split teams cracked. Now if that is a crime i think many guilds out there are guilty of it.

Now a little of topic im a fan of Te and i was rooting for them. After seeing them stand up to EW i thought they had a shot, seeing as i remember Te and WM have had some great matches on observer mode before and they both got the best of each other. Te lost the series to WM which was a little dispointing but i know Te will be back next championship.

Tortoise · Aug 28, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Here is where it gets juicy: iQ had already played this VoD build TWICE with the clear intent to play for VoD. They played the exact same build the match before, yet EvIL did not change anything after losing to the build. During the second game, iQ did indeed play and won in VoD with a significant disadvantage. Should we be suprised when the same thing happens in game three? EviL was exposed in VoD and was too arrogant to admit it, so they paid in the third match. iQ did the equivalant of a 30 minute camp twice before, so they should have fully expected a VoD build.

EvIL made two tactical errors as I have mentioned before: 1) they wasted the 30-35 minute period trying to go 8v8 when they had the best opportunity to use their split. 2) They allowed the late morale boost which put iQ over the top. You can pretend that the late morale boost was luck, but it was very intentional designed to splite EvIL when they needed to work together the most.

I kind off disagree. Everyone in this thread is pointing fingers to EvIL complaining they were stupid, arrogant and made tactical errors. I see it differently. EvIL had no idea iQ would pull the same trick again and has proven time and again they can pull off almost every win with the build they're running. Why change a winning concept?

Everyone here tends to look to the end-result of the matches without looking at what actually happened on the battlefield: EvIL was beating iQ in 8v8 combat and never had a NPC disadvantage during the entire fight after VoD. They were spiking iQ out and if it hadn't been for that morale boost (which was huge mistake imo) chances are EvIL would've won that match. Saying iQ played their cards perfectly is a bit of an overstatement when EvIL had the match under control even at VoD.

I'm pretty confident that EvIL isn't gonna point fingers to their build for their loss (although I would dump the Mo/A if I were them). iQ managed to squeeze out a win through good tactics and a little screw-up by EvIL. Though I will admit that some build changes probably would've made them kick iQ's ass that simply doesn't change the fact that they lost that match on actual play, not just on builds...

Would we really be discussing EvIL's arrogance if they would've won that last match? Would we really be pointing to iQ as master tacticians if they would've lost? No, we wouldn't. Both EvIL and iQ played great matches and the win was a close one. Grats to both of them...

Loch · Aug 28, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by anasazi sen

Now I know the responses: perfectly valid tactics, play to win, nothing wrong with sitting in your base for 30 minutes, the game is/never was/shouldn't have to be "beautiful", and whatever else. However these types of responses merely confirm the type of attitude that hinders the growth of e-sports into at least a reasonable state of semi-legitimacy.

So you're blaming the players for winning the game using what's given to them? Gimme a break, it sounds like you should actually be sore at ArenaNet for designing their GvG mode to allow boring turtle tactics. Don't blame the players, their only goal is to make a grab at the trophy within the rules of the game. Last time I checked, turtling for 30 minutes wasn't against any rule. It's not the players' fault if the game is broken.

sm2006 · Aug 28, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

IQ deserved it, they had it planed from the first fight.
They knew EVIL had 2 assas, and wernt going to lose npcs, then the lord....

llsektorll · Aug 28, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

When Nightfall Comes Out I Quit [EvIL]
ranked 765 PPG: 8.33333 rating: 1050 Wins: 4 Losses: 2

LOL!!!!!!!

coldplay · Aug 29, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

EvIL's lost at 3rd game cuz they were not lucky at the end. They were weak for only 1 moment and iQ seized the moment, wiped out half EvIL's team, ganked the guild lord to win

Ensign · Aug 29, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

You barely ever want to enter a match with the plan of turtling the lord. You're spotting your opponent a huge advantage in doing so.

But it made sense for us to do that, all things considered. Isle of the Dead is an outstanding map for assassins, between quickly teleporting between the two different levels of the field, and bouncing back to the base using Aura of Displacement while your opponent is stuck in the tar. EvIL had five teleporting characters that match, and a map that gave them a huge mobility advantage.

Given their outstanding player skill and the mobility of their build, were we realistically going to go into VoD in better position by fighting them, or just defending our NPCs? Do you think we were honestly going to be able to run 20+ flags out of that base and through the tar for 30 minutes without problem, to prevent a morale boost? Were we going to be able to force a boost? Could we keep both bodyguards and most of our boat intact with two assassins constantly trying to take them out (even suiciding to get them)? Would we escape and get to VoD with all of our Resurrection Signets and only one guy with DP? I don't think it would be possible to go into VoD into better shape by fighting than by turtling. You only concede two archers on that map (they got a 3rd by pulling it out of the boat while we weren't paying attention), so it just made sense to protect the assets that we reasonably could hold, and wait to beat them when they were weak - at VoD.

Is it a fun way to play? No. Is it even good? Usually, it isn't. You give up too much from turtling. But against a team with a singular, glaring weakness - slugfests at VoD - you do what you have to do to maximize that advantage. Given everything we had spotted them, the match was still close - if they had brought any tools to fight a slugfest, I think we would have lost convincingly. But that didn't, and while a lot of mistakes were made on both sides during the slugfest, we ended up winning for the right reasons - maximizing our advantages and taking away the advantages of our opponent.

Peace,
-CxE

shadowfell · Aug 29, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

I had been rooting for evil, just like the last round of championships. I was actually shocked that iQ even made it that far.. but then again.. I stopped paying attention to them a long long time ago, when I had asked someone, something about a price he was asking for an item (He had an iQ tag)..and the response was.. "team iQ you noob mother RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer. Don't forget it"

The evil guys have always been very friendly to me, I have done missions, and even the elite missions with some of them, TE as well. Another case of really friendly guys. Wish other high ranked teams would take note of this and act as nice to the 'little people"

Byron · Aug 29, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But against a team with a singular, glaring weakness - slugfests at VoD - you do what you have to do to maximize that advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest."

Well done IMO.

Thom · Aug 29, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Byron: Excellent quote.

Just deleted a long post. Summary:

Mixing strategies has become essential in tournement play since strong teams like iQ and WM can effectively gameplan to an opponent. The game is maturing,