Curse

stueyman2099 · Aug 26, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I've always liked EViL for thier skillz... but uhh...

wtf? he dropped res sig for this?

kitiara · Aug 26, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

but doesnt that mean he cant hit you with shock arrows well he is blind ?!?!
*sarcasum*

But serious why do you run that bloodlight * curses for not understanding evil

*

tomcruisejr · Aug 26, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

I've always liked EViL for thier skillz... but uhh...

wtf? he dropped res sig for this?

imagine if iQ warriors ran hamstorm, it wouldve been gg for them sooner.

or their standard war build + lesser energy > Meteor shower maybe.

Khanoute · Aug 26, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by selber

EvILs style to play this game is outdated. This game is not about showing skill on the battlefield anymore (maybe it never was). This is a thing of the past. The future are guilds like iQ. Bunnythumbers, Fastcastspike, Tripplesmite, VoD-doorexploits, taking advantage of the VoD-mechanics; - To watch for weakpoints in the game in order to take advantage of them. I hope many guilds will follow iQ. The game would deserve it.

QFT. More and more in GW, being smart is better than being skilled (aka "good micros, team communication or in game flexibility"). Matches outcome are/should be decided before their start. Choosing cautiously your 64skills should be the most important part of the game.

If you go for a build taking advantage of the VoD mechanics like iQ did, there's absolutely no reason to even fight before the 30 mins marks because you will probably get wiped over and over. Lately people were complaining about builds with defensive rit, turtling till VoD and "abusing" the spirits effects on the npcs. But those builds are smart because they have what it takes to win the game and in a safer way than the balanced meta back in the days.

Still, there's some room for "hazard" : EvIL could have wrapped it up in the 3rd math, in spite of their ridiculously weaker build. The morale boost they conceided was decisive imo. At the end of the day, iQ played well enough their build.
Actually, iQ's victory reminded me of Greece's victory in the 2004 European Football Championships. They didn't play a nice game to watch, packed their 11 players in defense, launched a counter attack to score a goal and turtled again. Still they went all the way, beating more skilled opponents because well... it _is_ hard to score when you have to cut past a thick defense.

Hopefully more and more players will learn from iQ and try to make good use of the game flaws/bugs or the opponent's weaknesses.

RotteN · Aug 26, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

EvIL failed to addapt, and they lost because of that.

Amity and Truth · Aug 26, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Whenever i see these kind of threads occur, i have the picture of the Hamburger and Fries consuming fat TV Junkie screaming at the screen that even he could have done it better and that they were cheating or lousy and shouldn't have won. Sorry, this is not meant to offend anyone, just the image the whole "unfair playing" debatte gives me.
It's also partly true though because most of these complains are coming from people who have never had their nose in a Top 50 Match besides watching it on observer. Yet they think they know all about it, the mechanics, the reasons behind everything and most of all the builds.
No, i have neither but i can admit that openly. But i'm also not just stating that the Match was "unfair" to a degree "of cheating" and "insulting the community".
Get Real people, there is no such thing as unfair in a game. There is no such thing as "combat art" or "style" in a game. There never was. Such things are a sign of vanity and arrogance and that is ultimately the downfall of age old empires as it was the Downfall of EvIL. Don't believe me? Look up some empires in your local history book. They all fell because they became too concerned about looks, style and art.
They oversaturated themselves in success and as soon as a real and somewhat unusual foe stepped up they were far too immobile to adapt.

samifly · Aug 26, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I dont know why people are upset at iQ when EvIL didnt bother to change their build....

Nightwish · Aug 26, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Playing within the rules doesnt mean everything is alright.

Imagine in a game a chess, one opponent is highly obsessed with hygiene, the other player knows it and exploit it by rubbing his snot everywhere to distract the fellow. This doesnt break the rules, but I would not completely enjoy the game.

I am not directing this to iQ victory but to the overall mindset of "play to win".

Thom · Aug 26, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

EvIL did this to themselves both strategically and tactially. While iQ played 3 builds in tournement and many more in the past, EvIL has a single build and playing style. Any strong 8v8 build could have easily defeated iQ's VoD build, through superior tactics. Everyone knows that if you commit to a split, an opponent can turtle until VoD and there isn't much you can do. I love the split, but true flexiblity includes going heads up in VoD.

In the first match against iB, iQ ganked using that 30:00-35:00 slot where NPC advantage is irrelevant. This same slot is the only time where you can force an 8v8 team to split. EviL made a tactical error in not using that slot where they could force their split. Any split team knows how important that interval is too winning in VoD. I realize that they failed in a similar split during game 2, but they were in a much better situation approaching minute 35 in the second game as I recall (I could be wrong).

If you've seen a build twice, you have no excuse not to be prepared for it a third time. This cuts both ways: iQ saw the build twice and was prepard, but EviL wasn't. iQ was betting on EviL's arrogance with when they choose to run the same build twice. I know that iQ has other options at their disposal, but they correctly bet on seeing the same map and build.

Few notes on criticism:
-VoD tactics can be lame, but several teams run VoD tactics during the season. Seeing these tactics used in tournement provides some validation to those "slow climbing" ladder guilds employing them.
-Changes need to be made to NPC movement.
-Pure counters like the one used by iQ only work against unique opponents. You have to mix both metagame awareness with player skill. There are several variations of balance that would have beaten that particular VoD build.
-Realize that heavier gimmicks seen in this championship have failed. iQ's VoD build, while rather gimmicky, is a simple defensive balanced build.
-Much maligned skills and classes defined victory.
-Player skill is the most important factor if teams mix their strategies well. That is to say, they don't become predictable in their builds.

Da Cebuano · Aug 26, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

TBH, if you found the way the matches unfolded to be anything other than brilliant tactical execution, then you my friend are a very limited individual. To me, both IB and EVIL had similar styles going into the finals, flashy type high mobility builds that gank and for the most part outplays their opponents w/ splits. Looking at the matches, seems like IQ saw through that and used a high risk manuever. They basically pretended to lose at the start, to me it looked like a steamroll until you watch the end of it.

Although to say they're not very skilled is stupid. I'm still appalled by how iB lost their first match. They had mo/me I believe, so they have def stronger healing than the mo/a, yet still fell w/ the NPC, morale advantage. So to me, that gg for IQ, glad to see an american guild come out on top using their minds, as its said that asians are supposedly smarter(I'm asian, and I do believe that, thats why I'm thinking its ironic) than american on average, yet that match pwned evil in the brains department. Not to mention evil failed to adapt coming from previous loss of similar fashion.

Congrats to IQ, I was really hoping an american guild would take it home, even though I was actually rooting for evil.

Nightwish · Aug 26, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

If you guys bothered to read the guild interviews on guildwars.com, you will know that Evil players make it their challenge/goal to tackle different opponents/situations using the same build. I would not say this is decided out of arrogance but rather a way for them to push their limits.

Hence assuming both iQ and evil have the same player skills, iQ came out on top for having that extra advantage by fully utilizing game/VoD mechanics.

Dzan · Aug 26, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

It's funny how people can watch those matches and be revolted I got the exact opposite reaction.

I thought it was tactical brilliance and I was in awe of the perfect understanding of the game.

DieInBasra · Aug 26, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

When I first watched them I was completely confused. The guy who wrote "Why nuking sucks" with a fire ele on his team? I also distinctly remember him saying how BF on a fire ele is a retarded idea :P It all fell into place, though, why they had three AoE characters and such a weirdass warrior. I have to say, my faith in iQ (always my favorite guild) had been waning until I saw these last games, absolutely brilliant playing.

And btw, if you call iQ's build a gimick, call EviL's build one. EviL's build is far from balanced, since it can't play straight-up 8v8 at all.

Neo-LD · Aug 26, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanoute

QFT. More and more in GW, being smart is better than being skilled (aka "good micros, team communication or in game flexibility"). Matches outcome are/should be decided before their start. Choosing cautiously your 64skills should be the most important part of the game.

If you go for a build taking advantage of the VoD mechanics like iQ did, there's absolutely no reason to even fight before the 30 mins marks because you will probably get wiped over and over. Lately people were complaining about builds with defensive rit, turtling till VoD and "abusing" the spirits effects on the npcs. But those builds are smart because they have what it takes to win the game and in a safer way than the balanced meta back in the days.

Still, there's some room for "hazard" : EvIL could have wrapped it up in the 3rd math, in spite of their ridiculously weaker build. The morale boost they conceided was decisive imo. At the end of the day, iQ played well enough their build.
Actually, iQ's victory reminded me of Greece's victory in the 2004 European Football Championships. They didn't play a nice game to watch, packed their 11 players in defense, launched a counter attack to score a goal and turtled again. Still they went all the way, beating more skilled opponents because well... it _is_ hard to score when you have to cut past a thick defense.

Hopefully more and more players will learn from iQ and try to make good use of the game flaws/bugs or the opponent's weaknesses.

QFF. Matches are never decided before the gates open. Builds play an important role, sure. But the execution of the builds is just as if not more important. The most common example people use of this is that if you give Te's build to a bunch of nubs, they will still utterly fail because they cant execute. A more pertinent example is iQ vs EvIL g2. For the first half of the match, iQ tried to fight a superior split build with its VoD build, and was clearly outclassed. If things had continued in that fashion, everyone here would be complaining about how as soon as the gates opened, EvIL was guarenteed to win, based on the builds brought. But instead, iQ changed the way they played (turtled) and pulled out the win with a well executed VoD.

If you ask me, people need to stop whining about how skill is not the only deciding factor in GW. Complaining that builds have any role whatsoever in determining victory. Do these people think that every strategy and build should be equally good? What kind of strategy game would GW be if that were the case? Complaining about build over skill in GW is like complaining that a "more skilled" starcraft player lost to a "less skilled" starcraft player because he built the wrong units. The more skilled player might have had better execution, but his faulty strategy led to his defeat. And I guarentee that no one would cry that that is somehow a game flaw.

GW is clearly about two components - strategy, and execution. People need to quit whining a get used to it.

Locke Envinyatar · Aug 26, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaddeus Tael

I hope everyone agrees that EvIL going out of the Championship against iQ was totally unfair. The way that iQ played was disgusting, lacking skill and thought against one of the best guilds ever, it is quite frankly insulting to the Guild Wars community. Please post your thoughts on this issue.

Yeah, iQ totally lacks skill. Which is why they died horribly to WM in match 1 when they tried fighting 8v8 at the flagstand instead of turtling at their Lord.

...oh wait.

Gosu · Aug 26, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

people say that EviL were arrogant, lazy and some people are trying to insinuate that they are stupid. People on this thread consistently keep on pointing out the fact that it was soo obvious that IQ were playing for VOD, so it was EviL's fault that they did not take advantage of that.

Personally I see this is alot like the Ali and Foreman fight, rumble in the Jungle. Ali knew he couldn't go toe to toe with foreman in the middle of the ring otherwise he would have gotten hurt. So Ali used his brain he devised a strategy to wear down Foreman by letting Foreman punch himself out then near the end of the fight Ali would explode out at foreman with all he had. Ali won the fight like this against a fighter who at the time critics were saying was superior to him. Hence the term he used after the fight "rope a dope".

Thats why everyone at the time made such a big thing about it because Ali wasn't meant to win, yet he did not just though his fighting skill but with a collective assortment of both his brains and physical capabilites.

The point being IQ did something very similar to EviL, IQ wore down EviL until VOD and then exploded out near the end and won the match. Just like Foreman Last pride where unable to do anything about it.

Personally i feel this is good for last pride, they are getting a bit too complacent which i can understand is easy for them in their position as most of the guilds in this game are inferior to them. But this might be a wake up call to Last pride that people are catching up with them fast. I really hope EviL take this on the chin and step it up a notch and re-design a few things about their playing style.

Now i respect EviL alot, they are clearly better than alot of the guilds in this game including alot of the top 10 guilds. I mean how many other guilds do you see steam rolling teams good as well as bad in like under 5 mins.

EviL have to realise that they are one of the top guilds if not the top guild in this game and people will go out of their way to formulate builds to take them down.

Yesterday they got out-played in terms of tactics and there was nothing they wanted do about it. I recall in a previous post that someone said EViL play like that intentionally, that they don't shift and change according to whats in front of them. If this is true then all i can say they should get used to losing to people formulating tactics catered to taking them down.

Which is exactly what happened to them yesterday, it doesn't pay to be predictable now does it.

Like Bruce Lee said you put water into a cup it becomes the Cup, put water into a glass it becomes the glass, be water my friend be water.

In other words have a style that can adapt and change with the different envionments and situations you find yourself in. If EviL had just adapted their playing style to cater to IQ's new tactic against them instead of being rigid they probably would have won.

(ye i know i waffle alot)

kitiara · Aug 26, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gosu

people say that EviL were arrogant, lazy and some people are trying to insinuate that they are stupid. People on this thread consistently keep on pointing out the fact that it was soo obvious that IQ were playing for VOD, so it was EviL's fault that they did not take advantage of that.

Personally I see this is alot like the Ali and Foreman fight, rumble in the Jungle. Ali knew he couldn't go toe to toe with foreman in the middle of the ring otherwise he would have gotten hurt. So Ali used his brain he devised a strategy to wear down Foreman by letting Foreman punch himself out then near the end of the fight Ali would explode out at foreman with all he had. Ali won the fight like this against a fighter who at the time critics were saying was superior to him. Hence the term he used after the fight "rope a dope".

Thats why everyone at the time made such a big thing about it because Ali wasn't meant to win, yet he did not just though his fighting skill but with a collective assortment of both his brains and physical capabilites.

The point being IQ did something very similar to EviL, IQ wore down EviL until VOD and then exploded out near the end and won the match. Just like Foreman Last pride where unable to do anything about it.

Personally i feel this is good for last pride, they are getting a bit too complacent which i can understand is easy for them in their position as most of the guilds in this game are inferior to them. But this might be a wake up call to Last pride that people are catching up with them fast. I really hope EviL take this on the chin and step it up a notch and re-design a few things about their playing style.

Now i respect EviL alot, they are clearly better than alot of the guilds in this game including alot of the top 10 guilds. I mean how many other guilds do you see steam rolling teams good as well as bad in like under 5 mins.

EviL have to realise that they are one of the top guilds if not the top guild in this game and people will go out of their way to formulate builds to take them down.

Yesterday they got out-played in terms of tactics and there was nothing they wanted do about it. I recall in a previous post that someone said EViL play like that intentionally, that they don't shift and change according to whats in front of them. If this is true then all i can say they should get used to losing to people formulating tactics catered to taking them down.

Which is exactly what happened to them yesterday, it doesn't pay to be predictable now does it.

Like Bruce Lee said you put water into a cup it becomes the Cup, put water into a glass it becomes the glass, be water my friend be water.

In other words have a style that can adapt and change with the different envionments and situations you find yourself in. If EviL had just adapted their playing style to cater to IQ's new tactic against them instead of being rigid they probably would have won.

(ye i know i waffle alot)

ill agree that evil is stubborn i mean they should of changed there build and they lost because they didnt. Thats what there know for and iQ played against that. Grats to iQ winning.

Now evil had not gotten complacent and they do not think the other guilds are inferior. I've met danjang, he said they were looking forward to fighting all the guilds because he said evil was looking forward to fighting all the guilds at the gwfc especially Te and WM. He was a nice guy not cocky or anything along those lines and im gona guess from his attitude the rest of the guild has pretty much the same attitudes.

Yes evil is stubborn, they are not arrogant or cocky. Just stubborn.

Tortoise · Aug 26, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Kudos to iQ for their smart play but saying EvIL were fools to go with the same build again and again, is in my opinion an exageration. While a different build might've surprised iQ chances are quite big iQ was gonna force them to play their game anyway. The fact that EvIL nearly finished off iQ and that it wasn't obvious who was gonna lose the match until EvIL's lord actually hit the dirt shows that EvIL didn't make a bad call necessarily.
EvIL had a chance in both matches they lost (as did iB). They didn't just lose it before the game started, they lost it on the field just as well...

In any case: iQ played their game and won. GG to them.

latbec · Aug 27, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

When I first watched them I was completely confused. The guy who wrote "Why nuking sucks" with a fire ele on his team? I also distinctly remember him saying how BF on a fire ele is a retarded idea :P

That's what is interesting about the GW championships. You know your opponent so you can second guess what he will be running and pick specific skills that are normally not used during a ladder season. Nuking can't work in a normal rated GvG because of the randomness of maps, teams and builds you face. It could work for one battle and then be useless for 10 others because of that. But in that case, it was a build made specifically for VoD for Jade Isle, which allowed nuking to be efficient. Same goes for other skill that were used during these championships. Whoever knew you would see shield bash in a high-ranked GvG? :P

tomcruisejr · Aug 27, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

...Whoever knew you would see shield bash in a high-ranked GvG? :P

WM always thinks outside the box. split teams? assassins? shadowform? etc? they are not your usual 2 war-2mes-2elmo-2mo guild.

only WM folks.