Curse

romO · Sep 18, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I have to say that I have been rather impressed by the restoration ritualists that I have seen. However, every build that runs one successfully has a load of additional defense as well, so I can't be confident that another monk wouldn't be better in that spot. Unfortunately as well, restoration rits are always going to be gimped by the fact that weapon spells do not stack while monk enchantments do.

Kyune · Sep 18, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

There's not just that, but also the only effective (and unlikely) way to cancel out a weapon spell in effect is to replace it with another one...as an opponent, it would be dulled weapon.

Yeah, restoration's getting better.

neoflame · Sep 18, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Dulled Weapon is a hex spell, not a weapon spell. There is no way to strip weapon spells.

Sep 18, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

As someone who was running rest rits long before in the monk role, I'm happy they got a buff, but I still think they have bigger problems than weapon spells not stacking. Usually, a resiliant weapon spell is all you need on a target to keep him up, with maybe a few heals. Hex removal is non existent in the rest line, though you can combat degen hexing with resilient. The larger problems I find is that the most powerful healing rits I've made need spirits around. Furthermore the spirits that work best, preservation, recuperation, wont stay up long after the opposing team sees what you are up to. The xtra energy on recup sucks too. With the spirits up, I've found myself a better healer than a lot of monk builds I use. But once the team smartens up your spirits are gone, you lose spirit transfer... an amazing heal, and risk you team getting spiked when you try and throw up another spirit which is likely to get interupted. Cast times are a problem as well, other than spirit transfer and some monk spells that work nicely with the rit... SO basically, the rit healers can work but you have to give them a lot of support on other roles in your team build.

Zonzai · Sep 19, 2006, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Interesting post Shard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Ether prodigy only triggers when it ends, it doesn't kill you out of nowhere when you aren't using it. I'm smart enough to know when I get killed by prodigy. I didn't even take damage when I died. 200 health, then boom. dead.

There was a bug that did that pretty often in prophecies beta and even a bit after launch. Every once in a while it pops up here and there. Just report it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

There's no room for originality unless you want to guarantee yourself a loss.

/agreed

I don't agree with every thing that you said, but this part I whole-heartedly do.

I remember back before launch when we were all waiting on every word coming out of the devs' mouths. We were told very clearly time and again that no one team or class build would become disproportionally more effective than all others precisely to avoid this sort of thing.

Maybe Shard and I are the only ones who don't see that balance, but really I doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Back to my original point. Nothing was fixed, and the metagame hasn't changed. That's an indication of a garbage skill balance.

I'll have to agree but disagree with you here. The metagame may not have changed much yet but it will very soon.

---

A bit more on topic. I am glad that assassins and ritualists got the boost that they did. They were underplayed.

At the same time I'm sort of pissed off about it since they are kind of like specialty classes designed specifically to replace the things I like about being an elementalist; mainly spike damage and AoE utilities (slows, knockdown, wards etc.).

But this isn't an ele complaint thread so I'm not going to get into it any more than that. It just seems like ANet has rendered my ele completely obsolete in GvG save for one build... running flags. And judging from the little Ether Prodigy nerf (if you can really call it that) I don't think ANet even wants me doing that any more.

As far as the boosts to the mind skills go... Great. Fantastic! I have an elite that I can use 2 or 3 times before I am too low on energy to use it effectively and am almost unable to use any spells at all. I'm not using a skill like that as a closer at the expense of a decent elite.

Boonprot, on the other hand, I am glad to see get nerfed. (Yes, please kill me now monks, I asked for it.) I am not so certain that I like how it was nerfed but some nerf was needed. I prefer to play a real healing monk anyway.

Patrograd · Sep 19, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

Maybe Shard and I are the only ones who don't see that balance, but really I doubt it.

If you watch observer mode at all you will see:

Warriors

hammers, swords and axes in abundance. You will see w/a, w/mo, w/e. there is no be all and end all warrior build

Assassins

Gank assassins, spike assassins and pressure assassins. The latest patch has seen a veritable explosion in assassin usage and a huge increase in their versatility

Elementalists

Ward Eles, blindbots, flag runners, spikers

Mesmers

fast cast necros, domination spikers and illusion gankers

Necros

Death necros, Blood necro spikers, warrior shutdown necros

Monks

Boon prots, blessed lights

Rangers

cripshot runners, degen rangers, spirit spammers, trappers, spikers

Ritualists

possibly the least used class with the least variety

so I am really puzzled by this "one build dominates all" theory of yours and shardfenix's, as in fact there is currently a huge variety of builds and combinations being used in the top 100 guilds.

Does that variety exist in HA? Does anyone care?

JR · Sep 19, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Monks

Boon prots, blessed lights

Healing Light and Word of Healing Monks are also making a bit of a comeback, which I am glad to see.

I would agree, there is a good deal of diversity at the moment in general, however I am seeing a lot of the standard three Ranger condi-pressure build. Most noteably Val and PnH who run it very well... Debilitating Shot needs to be linked to Marksmanship and scale with it. T_T

glountz · Sep 19, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Debilitating Shot needs to be linked to Marksmanship and scale with it. T_T

I use often this skill in a variant Cripshot ranger. It is properly monstruous. Mesmer surge skills were nerfed to hell, but they forgot this ranger one.
/seconded.

Patrograd · Sep 19, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I am seeing a lot of the standard three Ranger condi-pressure build. Most noteably Val and PnH who run it very well... Debilitating Shot needs to be linked to Marksmanship and scale with it. T_T

Is this running nr tranq?

I have seen quite a bit of this too, especially on Burning isle. We've been running dual extinguish and dual Heal party recently which seems to cope pretty well, although it hurts our boonie alot, strongly considering making him WOH. During the tombs 6v6 thing this nrtranq build was really outstanding, and the only viable counter seemed to be restore conditions. Maybe an RC monk is the solution instead of the blight as long as you are carrying expel?

Debilitating shot..hmm, it still needs to hit though right? Debilspam is ftw imo

ectospasm · Sep 19, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

ok who whined about the rits?

playing a prot rit lord in HA with a bspike team is useless even with someone pumping BR on you when they can. cant maintain energy even with 16pts in sp.
used to fun to play in TA & Abs. at least he will still be useful to farm with and i wont have to delete him loosing the 75-150k i put into him.

i dont like the nerf. whoever whined, gg.

Demesis · Sep 19, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Assassins

Gank assassins, spike assassins and pressure assassins. The latest patch has seen a veritable explosion in assassin usage and a huge increase in their versatility

That's complete rubbish. I've been trying to make 4-man gank teams and NO there still isn't that many people using assassins yet.

JR · Sep 19, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Maybe an RC monk is the solution instead of the blight as long as you are carrying expel?

The problem with that is that against anything else you may well have problems. Blessed Light is a B-Lights only real self heal skill, should you split or the other Monk be disabled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demesis

That's complete rubbish. I've been trying to make 4-man gank teams and NO there still isn't that many people using assassins yet.

Try observer mode.

Lord Dark Genie · Sep 19, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The problem with that is that against anything else you may well have problems. Blessed Light is a B-Lights only real self heal skill, should you split or the other Monk be disabled.

If you run Healing touch for self healing, it might work. It's a bit tricky with Gift of Health, but it's doable I think.

I agree that RC is a wasted elite slot against non-condition teams though.

romO · Sep 19, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ectospasm

ok who whined about the rits?

i dont like the nerf. whoever whined, gg.

It's not a matter of who "whined". Even if nobody had said anything at all about the state of the game with ritualists in it, they still would have been nerfed. It was entirely Izzy's decision, and after talking with him several times, it was evident that he wanted to induce an "offense is your best defense" state of mind. Ritual Lord Ritualists are the complete opposite of that, and draw the game out into a stalemate, which results in VoD or extended turtling at the lord. He felt that such a character decreased the quality of the game and that it was in everyone's best interest to prevent lame builds that prevented the game from being played or being fun. I'm sure a great, great majority of players share this sentiment and are incredibly happy because of the balance.

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 19, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCreaMPiMP

As someone who was running rest rits long before in the monk role, I'm happy they got a buff, but I still think they have bigger problems than weapon spells not stacking. Usually, a resiliant weapon spell is all you need on a target to keep him up, with maybe a few heals. Hex removal is non existent in the rest line, though you can combat degen hexing with resilient. The larger problems I find is that the most powerful healing rits I've made need spirits around. Furthermore the spirits that work best, preservation, recuperation, wont stay up long after the opposing team sees what you are up to. The xtra energy on recup sucks too. With the spirits up, I've found myself a better healer than a lot of monk builds I use. But once the team smartens up your spirits are gone, you lose spirit transfer... an amazing heal, and risk you team getting spiked when you try and throw up another spirit which is likely to get interupted. Cast times are a problem as well, other than spirit transfer and some monk spells that work nicely with the rit... SO basically, the rit healers can work but you have to give them a lot of support on other roles in your team build.

QFT.

Basically, there are 2 types of team build when you think of rit.

A: Everyone go on doing the best side of what they can do, which balance out the team with the best of everything from each different ability.
B: Everyone go on being a big hybrid, everyone can do a little of more than one thing.

What rit is good for is B, while monk are good for A. Most build I have seen so far are generally type A, as that require less coordination from the team players. B is amazing when played by some of the most coordinated people.

What I don't like about rit is, even for type B, there are far better choices than rit and not rely on those spirits. A rit that want to play high end have to resort to very high level of spawning power or the abuse of draw spirit (moving the spirit out of range, with effect remaining; but if you move out of your party range, who will heal them? Your runner probably have to do this for you).

It is really hard to play rit into type A, while generally people like to use type A. Hence, rit aren't going anywhere.

(While I have much to say about my previous post and the quote after it, I feel it is more of a waste of time to do so, and I really don't have the time >< wish I do)

Edit: Forgot to mention type C, which is both A and B... or should that be called AB? B is the least used of them all I believe.

Not Prime Time · Sep 21, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

First rule about Guild Wars skills balancing, it is and always will be about GvG! Get that! Until they start giving away $100,000 a season for Heros' Accent, RA, TA, AB, or whatever, it will always be about GvG first. Not that they don't throw a bone in there every once in a while or kill 2 or 3 birds with one stone. But if you expect that they are going to nerf Touch Rangers for RA, TA, or AB forget it. Learn to deal! Enough said.

Ritualist and Assassin I read some Frog Talk a few month or so back where ANET said they think they have a handle on balancing skills. Which to me means they screwed up bad after Faction beta and are making amends. Many people have expressed apprehension about buying Nightfall after the the nerf beating these 2 profession took after beta. The Frog has said that they are working to ensure that does not happen. So if your expecting them to break out the big bat on the Dervish and Paragon, it not likely to happen. Especially since from what I have read on Nightfall there will be no new skills for existing professions. So they need to give people insentive to buy this one. Also means no new counters to the new skills.

Warriors and Thumpers so now it will take 4 strikes to kill big deal.

Boon Prot this one is easy. Boon recharge, as was already been said by Ensign if you use boon all the time your not playing it right. Boon healing reduction, most people run high Divine Favor and cheat with the superior rune switch out. I think that is done for. To gain back that 10 or so points of healing for RoF you'll need to crankup Protect which means a superior rune full time. I personally don't use one on any character except warrior. Losing 75 HP for a measly 14 or so points of damage or heal is not worth it. Running high Protect has higher healing capacity than with high Divine. Do the math.

Smite, I just don't think ANET every intended it to be used the way it has been recently. Smite in general have always been secondary to damage mitigation or healing. It's Just a way for a monk to throw out a little damage now and then or tell a warrior to back Off.

I like the looks of Leech Signet and Signet of Disruption. The gears are turn here.

No opinion as of yet on the rest.

Sorry about the tone but after reading 4 pages and then hitting the whinning, crying and flaming, it's was too much to handle. And this thread started out so nice. You guys are worse than my kids. I need a drink!

Cheers

Spook_Cell · Sep 21, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Kinda dissapointed at the lack of changes to ele skills, don't see how it could of hurt to twink the stats on some spells a bit to make them more appealing.

shardfenix · Sep 21, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Touch Rangers are laughable. They are a melee class with absolutely no snare and no spike ability. Their dps drops to horrifically low levels against anyone who even thinks the word kiting. They are rediculously easy to predict and interupt. They can allow nubs to perform well against their fellow nubs, and thats about it.
Assuming good teammates, I could monk agaist a team of touch rangers using my feet to press the buttons. Thats how bad they are.

What's laughable is people who don't read posts carefully and assume things about people who do. I agree that they suck in organized play. I said that already. However, when I said they were the best "solo" build, I assumed my audience was smart enough to know "solo" means "alone" or "one person." Maybe I'll give you the definitions for all the 4 letter words I use in all my posts, to save you the burden of looking like a moron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Who in the top 100 is running smite btw?

Press B and pick a random team. Chances are, they're running smite. Who wouldn't run a build that heals and does damage at the same time?

shardfenix · Sep 21, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Prime Time

First rule about Guild Wars skills balancing, it is and always will be about GvG! . . . But if you expect that they are going to nerf Touch Rangers for RA, TA, or AB forget it.

Because it's illegal to take 5 seconds out of the programmers time to fix those other things. They spend all their time doing important things, like changing the graphics on spirits and minion projectiles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Prime Time

Smite, I just don't think ANET every intended it to be used the way it has been recently. Smite in general have always been secondary to damage mitigation or healing. It's Just a way for a monk to throw out a little damage now and then or tell a warrior to back Off.

It's also a great way to kill your thumper's target quickly. The only real way to counter smite monks is to remove zealot's fire. After zealots is gone, all they have is a monk with limitless protective energy. Not broken at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

If you watch observer mode at all you will see:

Then Patrograd listed a bunch of builds he just made up...then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

so I am really puzzled by this "one build dominates all" theory of yours and shardfenix's, as in fact there is currently a huge variety of builds and combinations being used in the top 100 guilds.

If by "huge variety of builds in top 100" you mean smite with thumpers...and occasionally spike, then I agree with you totally. If by "huge variety of builds in top 100" you mean huge variety of builds in top 100, please wtach observe. Most of the top 100 guilds run similar builds. No, they aren't identical down to the 64 skill slots, but it's all smite with thumpers. If I entered a gvg right now, I would fight a team who had:

at least 1 blessed light monk
at least 1 thumper
at least 1 smiter
at least 1 axe warrior

The sad part is that the metagame for gvg is so stale that it's basically a coin flip whether you win or lose. Right now, it takes as much skill to win a gvg as it does for iway to beat iway.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 21, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

:

at least 1 blessed light monk
at least 1 thumper
at least 1 smiter
at least 1 axe warrior

you forgot water ele flag runner. I'm pretty sure every flagger is a water ele these days.