Curse

rii · Sep 18, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I can't seem to get any further than this:

http://www.gwshack.us/36976

Main question:

Way of the fox or warriors cunning? I feel 1 warrior needs to be able to cut through aegis/distortion/guardian, etc, and wotf has a faster recharge. However, is it worth it over its fragility, being, basically, an enchantment with a long recharge? Other constructive comments welcome.

Muppet87 · Sep 18, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I would suggest taking out Way Of The Fox and Endure Pain on your hammer warrior. Put in Heal Sig and Bullstrike for extra healing and KD. You shouldnt have a problem with aegis since u have a shatter..assuming your doing a spike. If you come up against wards usualy you dont spike targets within the wards..for two reasons: 1) they're most likely not overextended or out of position(which u want for a spike target) 2) Ward of Stability or Slow does not trigger Way of the fox.

BiP on a sword warrior sorta limits your options as far as splitting goes...BiP is virtually useless on a warrior imo. I'd say put Charge for BiP and Shock or Iron Palm for KD in place of Sprint.

Worf · Sep 18, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Hammer Warrior: If you want to have greater spike power, take Endure Pain out for Death's Charge. Way of the Fox and Death's Charge have both same recharge time.. Also about the spiking skills; I would take Devastating-Crushing-Mighty or Earth Shaker for elite. You can also think about Backbreaker, but it's risky to take (Blackouts, ouch).

Sword: You just give an free kill to enemy using BiP in fornt/midline imo. BiP is good skill, but not if you are too close to enemies.

Monks: RoF isn't so great without Boon, but it depens on the player will he/she take it or not.

stueyman2099 · Sep 19, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I actualy like this build quite a bit. I'd drop endure pain for deaths charge, as suggested. Wotf could definatly be useful, but you have more than enough enchant strips to take care of that. I'd drop it for Bulls Strike. Having 2 runners allows you to adjust your strategy as you need to. Ele at the stand for spike, ranger at the stand for pressuring.

About the BiP Sword.

I really like this idea, though this build is not somthing you can put in the hands of an ametuer. It would take some definate practice to get its use down as a warrior, but I think its far from undoable. The problem I do have with it though is that it's practicly useless if you're using it in a split, and this guy is clearly build for that. Not quite sure where the fix for that lies, other than maybe changing the hammer warrior up to have heal sig and be able to split in his place.

As far as the monks go, I work under the idea that it's often best to let the monks decide what they're most comfortable with, and any combination of B-Lights and Boon Prots will more or less work.

I'd drop cry, probably for diversion, maybe powr drain. There aren't that many pure spikes running around (though I could be wrong) and the skill will be largley wasted.

Dragannia · Sep 19, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

I like the BiP. It allows the Monks to work with their /A secondary, migitating damage extremely well while still having a good source of energy.

chemmjr · Sep 19, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I would love to see BiP on a warrior.

Picture this, if you will,

Warrior bashing on opposiong midliners, monk calls for BiP, warrior gives away his position and runs to monk.

The other team puzzled my this action targets that warrior and sees BiP and the 33% health sacrifice.

(minutes later) Warrior is back to bashing targets, only for the monk to call for BiP agian. Now warrior runs back to BiP the monk again, only this time the other strat caller sees the warrior running back and calls a (with or without melee support) spike in 3........2......... when he gets there and BiPs.........1.

Result= dead warrior,loss of battlefield position (flag control)

gg

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 19, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

If the other team has the potential to caster spike 66% of a warrior's health before monks can react (remember that if they called for BiP these monks have plenty of time to select the warrior in advance), Frenzy is a much more dangerous skill. The same team could caster-spike a warrior in Frenzy, dealing more damage without the monks having the guy selected in advance.

The thing is, most teams don't have that much caster spiking power these days, unless they're a pure spike (warrior-assisted or not.) A pure spike won't be pressuring the monks much, so there's no reason why they would be calling for a BiP.

The issues with a BiP sword have more to do with whether you can find a better elite. Getting spiked out won't be a big issue with proper player skill and team coordination, IMO.

rii · Sep 19, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I don't see why BiP on a warrior is a problem. Lets face it, he will be building in their midline, I'm not expecting this guy to be pushing in their monks faces, and without a secure and spammable cancel stance like rush, constant frenzying or similar is a no-no. Therefore, you can have Bip in your midline on a 100al warrior, or I could mess the build around (and yeah it would get messy) to put it on a N/ squishy (even worse tbh). If sword is viable and sitting there, I'm happy with that. As for endure pain, overextending, or at least pushing high is something the hammer may be doing often, so that kind of defence is excellent in those situations. As for subbing it out for healing signet, I think that’s wasteful. Heal Signet is nice against degen and in splits, but there is a lot of anti-degen here already, and there are not a whole lot of situations where both warriors will be splitting on their own without a monk or e/mo at the least.

That hammer chain is nasty, and can easily take a target down to a third health with reasonable ease. Since there is a decent amount of caster support in this, damage from the second warrior on the adrenal spike is supplementary, also providing a back-up deep wound (w/stability etc), and some killing power on the split. On that note, a feasible change might be switching to axe for dismember-executioners-rake/bulls/etc. It isn't a final thrust, but since your deep wound only takes 1 skill to activate it opens an utility/damage skill hybrid for the third attack skill slot. Needs testing tbh.

As for cry, I've observed 4 mixed/hard spikes obs'ing today, and I've only watched 6 games.... I'm not dropping it for something that doesn't fit the 'screw spikes' slot just because it isn't that popular, there are a lot of guilds running a lot of different things at the moment, so stream-lining isn't something I want to do. As for diversion, apart from *even more* shutdown for the spike I don't see it lasting past 2 seconds since most monks with a /Me are using inspired hex... or they are /A and have blight, and there are no other hexes in this build for them to waste it on. As for power drain.... it does the same thing as cry, except not area of effect, without damage, on a longer recharge, and the energy isn't an issue when you can call a Bip most of the time.

In terms of the swords weakness on the split, I see it too, but I expect it to run with the cripshot or other support. Asking a support warrior to solo anything besides crappy NPC’s and crappy players is a big ask, but I feel that with a cripshot or me/mo backing it up the sword can work well enough. If they split anything against you without a monk a warrior/cripshot or mesmer should be ok, and if they split a monk against you, just play a delaying game and let the flag team HF with only 1 monk to deal with (probably). If the sword gets paired 1v1 split (although if you only send 1 to attack their base/defend yours I would punt on the cripshot getting the nod) then heal signet and smart play is usually enough.

I also think people underestimate the power of Bip on non-casters. Bip’d cripshots can go seriously mad…. almost as good as the old days, and that level of cripple output is useful in a split scenario.

I do think the warrior weapon line choices need looking at. Apart from hard counters such as interrupts/split, a ward melee/stability team would give this adrenal spike pair a hard time. Looking into a warriors cunning/evis/shock instead of the hammer might be an option, but again, needs testing.

Ventius Hozza · Sep 20, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I haven't got a problem with BiP on a warrior, as long as it's used wisely.

I would take out endure pain for death's charge, change WoTF to "To The Limit".

I would take out a shatter on one of the mesmers for diversion (for primarily wards, to compensate for the lack of WoTF)

The build seems pretty sound to me otherwise.

rii · Sep 21, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

http://www.gwshack.us/53523

Attempted update.

The dev changed to shock axe with warriors cunning. It has neither endure pain or healing signet, but frankly the guy has loads of health, armour, and rush. Energy isn't a massive deal, so pack a few +health armour pieces and push for perma-600 health :S

The Bip sword is now bip/bash hammer. This incarnation both solves and creates problems, but I think that overall it's an improvement. The build is stronger in split for the KD + IB, and also glances over the problem that as sword you have to build 10a to spike, which, inbetween bip'ing casters and healing signet took a while, severely limiting the rate of spike (this guy only needs 6). The only real problem I see with this build is the energy. Due to bash you can't use rush (and I want a copy of sprint anyway) and all that energy can catch up with you. After some playtesting, the energy is fine outputting a reasonable amount of bip's if you aren't spiking every.... 10 seconds, and thats OK. If put under severe pressure I fear this character can find it hard to burn the candle at both ends, or whateverTF.

The ranger also changes secondary, and switches dodge/distorton/troll for dark escape/return/shadow refuge. I thought about leaving troll in but a 3s casting time with no evade stance is asking for it. The problem with dodge/distortion, is while it is great against adrenal spike teams/physical, it is actually pretty bad (imo, near useless) against maintained pressure (e.g. a thumper, no matter how nerfed), and any form of caster offence. Dark escape works against any form of spike, and against warriors returning around the battlefield is acceptable. (also fear the small synergy with crippling+33% and return -.-)

edit: ventius: I think throwing diversion on a mesmer with no hex support is a bad idea. It will be eaten by inspired, or blight, or expel, and do little than leave them picking their nails for a couple of seconds till it's removed. I've been an advocate for a while of lucking people with diversion, but in reality thats not such a reliable strat.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 22, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

just to let you know, electron theory was running bip on an axe warrior with dismember/executioner's, using heal sig after each bip with a reasonable investment in tactics to regain a lot of the health he sacrifices. I think not running frenzy on the bipper would probably be a good idea, as things could get kinda risky. Perhaps a perma-rush guy with protector's and bull's?

comonnow · Sep 22, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Yea I saw Bip on some top guild's sword war (dont remember who tbh). About putting it on an axe, I wouldnt do it, b/c u lose the +dmg from Evisc (which counting deep wound for 100 hits for somewhere around 200HP+) and only gain the dmg from exec, which wont be enough for adren spikes. And putting it on the hammer war is probably problematic, I cant see the build but i'm assuming ur using bash,crushin,irrestiable or something along those lines since ur losing all adren, and thats a lot of energy (which tends to be somewhat of a prob with a hammer war, and zealous hammers suck, dont care what anyone says) and u lose the weakness, which is nice for hitting an overextender if ur close to make him fall back for a cond removal. If I was to run BiP on a war it would be on a sword because u can take the typical sver/gash/final and still have nasty spike abilities and apply pressure with bleed/deep wound.

About diversion being removed in 2 sec. Yes it can be removed quite fast with all the anti-hex skills on monks, however if you have a GOOD mesmer, they will catch the skills despite the hex removal. If you have a mesmer who is getting his diversions removed most the time, i suggest you get a better mesmer because he sux, and uses the skill incorrectly by just throwing it around as opposed to using it the way it should be used, catching skills that could prove irritating to you're build (i.e. expel, wards, crip shot, tainted etc...)

Thom Bangalter · Sep 22, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by comonnow

Yea I saw Bip on some top guild's sword war (dont remember who tbh). About putting it on an axe, I wouldnt do it, b/c u lose the +dmg from Evisc (which counting deep wound for 100 hits for somewhere around 200HP+) and only gain the dmg from exec, which wont be enough for adren spikes.

yeah, but electron theory was doing it, so it must be good :S

JR · Sep 22, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

yeah, but electron theory was doing it, so it must be good :S

THAT'S where the freaking BiP was coming from... Played against sTar yesterday and inspired a BiP off one of the Monks... couldn't for the life of me work out who was using it.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Sep 22, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

That 2nd mesmer doesn't look like he is doing much of anything. I would say take out cry for diversion or something for when you are not spiking with a shatter, or blacking out.

rii · Sep 22, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

I would barely say the 2nd mesmer is lacking. Somewhere in the build, you need draw conditions. You also need a hard resurrect. With a hard res, you need distortion or usually cripshots etc are going to be a pain.

Shatter/Drain is not only awesome disruption against smiters, ether prodigies, boonprots, dual attuners, and many other builds, but also provide good energy management and good spike assist/finishing power.

As for cry, I fail to see what there isn't to like. You need something up front to get in the way of coordinated attacks, and mantra of resolve/concentration isn't really common enough to call it defunct. Diversion is nice, but I just don't think it's required.

Blackout is too good not to take, and as for expel hexes, I am a firm believer in that you need hex removal on a non-monk, in case they get hexed out of action (diversion etc). You don't need another copy of energy surge. With 1 mesmer with surge+burn, and the ranger with debilitating any more than that really is overkill.

The mesmer isn't doing much of anything, he's doing lots of little somethings. Thats the point.

Thom: Bip Axe is the last combo to look into, and it looks OK. As for frenzy+Bip, it's about as dangerous as frenzy+healsig.... i.e. only if you use em both at the same time. It is therefore a simple task of Not using them at the same time..... as for the +damage on evis... it's +29 at 14 axe. Every day it seems more and more insignificant in the grand scheme. The only weakness is in split, where you will not have the punch in the solo effort, as you would with sword, and you won't have the KD + punch of hammers non-elite combo.

Muppet87 · Sep 22, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

yeah, but electron theory was doing it, so it must be good :S

I wouldnt go as far as saying that if Electron Theory uses it then it must be uber in GvG.

Electron Theory is Electron Theory...if u dont know what your doing you can severly hurt your team, i.e. mainly positioning.

If you go on a BiP spree or even if you spend 30 seconds in your backline that is 30 seconds that your midline is exposed to two+ warriors.

comonnow · Sep 24, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I would barely say the 2nd mesmer is lacking. Somewhere in the build, you need draw conditions. You also need a hard resurrect. With a hard res, you need distortion or usually cripshots etc are going to be a pain.

Shatter/Drain is not only awesome disruption against smiters, ether prodigies, boonprots, dual attuners, and many other builds, but also provide good energy management and good spike assist/finishing power.

As for cry, I fail to see what there isn't to like. You need something up front to get in the way of coordinated attacks, and mantra of resolve/concentration isn't really common enough to call it defunct. Diversion is nice, but I just don't think it's required.

Blackout is too good not to take, and as for expel hexes, I am a firm believer in that you need hex removal on a non-monk, in case they get hexed out of action (diversion etc). You don't need another copy of energy surge. With 1 mesmer with surge+burn, and the ranger with debilitating any more than that really is overkill.

The mesmer isn't doing much of anything, he's doing lots of little somethings. Thats the point.

Thom: Bip Axe is the last combo to look into, and it looks OK. As for frenzy+Bip, it's about as dangerous as frenzy+healsig.... i.e. only if you use em both at the same time. It is therefore a simple task of Not using them at the same time..... as for the +damage on evis... it's +29 at 14 axe. Every day it seems more and more insignificant in the grand scheme. The only weakness is in split, where you will not have the punch in the solo effort, as you would with sword, and you won't have the KD + punch of hammers non-elite combo.

Its +29 at 14 axe, ok good point, but what you're forgetting is +15% dmg (above 50 or in stanceor w/e) and +20% dmg from customized weapons which makes tht 29 dmg 39 dmg. so 6-28+39DMG+100HP from deep wounds is stil much better than just the deep wound and normal weapon dmg. I understand what you're syaing, but why lose that extra 40 dmg, when you could just put it on a sword war, and stil have the same dmg output as any other sword war? just seems like common sense if you ask me, but hey what do I know? just been playing war like, forever...

rii · Sep 24, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by comonnow

Its +29 at 14 axe, ok good point, but what you're forgetting is +15% dmg (above 50 or in stanceor w/e) and +20% dmg from customized weapons which makes tht 29 dmg 39 dmg. so 6-28+39DMG+100HP from deep wounds is stil much better than just the deep wound and normal weapon dmg. I understand what you're saying, but why lose that extra 40 dmg, when you could just put it on a sword war, and stil have the same dmg output as any other sword war? just seems like common sense if you ask me, but hey what do I know? just been playing war like, forever...

Of course Eviscerate is better than just dismember. If what I said implied that then thats lack of communication on my part.

However, in terms of adrenal spiking +29 ain't required. A normal axe attack hits for 2-something on average, then executioners can get to around 8-something and penetrating 6-something. With the deep wound, thats around 240-260 net. In fact, thats pretty similar to just evis-executioners, since TBH if I did run evis I probably wouldn't bother with a third attack spike skill, and just stick in bulls strike or something.

With dismember, there are now three attack skills, and penetrating+dismember gets somewhere close to evis.... not there, but close. Enough at least. I tested the spike with the non-elite axe combo+non-elite hammer combo + lvl 14 orb. *shock* there was no difference between that and using manly attack elites.

Both combos are obviously weaker than their elite couterparts, but it appears that both fulfill the requirements. When working as a duo, they get some caster support and they make kills (easily - and tbh both on 1 target in terms of damage doesn't need caster support). When you split, in a team like this you always have caster support, so again... there is no point in a game where it is likely, or reasonable, to make a kill with no support. Either there is a monk, at which point it should be expected 1v1 for the monk to come out on top, or they send a lone caster with specific warriror hate, such as blind. Basically, with this much back-up elite attack skills aren't seemingly required, therefore I might as well drop them for something that has some utility.

As for changing to sword, I could do, but I really want rush on 1 of the warriors. It is a much more spammable cancel stance for frenzy, which is always nice, and in a field battle you can usually maintain it if that is whats required. Changing to sword makes rush pointless, since your chain will most likely be sever-gash-final, at which point you loose all adrenaline, inc. rush, so if they decide to unload on you after a spike you can't do jack about it.

On that note, another small update to the build:

http://www.gwshack.us/53523

Totally scrapped the attack elite thing for other elites. The hammer keeps bip, frankly the energy isn't a problem. You don't spike *that* shockingly often, and the main problem I had in between spikes was that I dropped into the groove of spamming IB... which on top of bip obviously strained things a little.

The axe is now dismember-executioners-penetrating and consume soul is the new elite. It's kind of.... niche.... but when it's useful it's *really* useful. Still looking to see if anything else can get the nod over it.

Also took out cry of frustration for power return on the Me/Mo, it's better against caster spikes, you only need to disrupt 1 spell usually. It's also cheaper, and can be used more freely in general combat. There is no interruption against skill-spikes, but that's pretty much limited to ranger spike (afaik), and with the anti-physical there should be enough to mess them up.

comonnow · Sep 25, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Well, suit yourself. All i can say is this, I hope im running around your mid-backline when your hammer war (with no shield) sacs 33% health and i Evis Exec him to death :/ but do what u wish.