Curse

xBakox · Aug 31, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Personally, I dont think I'd like 6v6 in HA permenatly. IMO, the metagame would turn to complete pressure teams (Iway, ViMway, and maybe some new 6 man hex pressure), and balance would become only for those that could really perfect it.

With only 2 monks for 6v6, pressure builds will kill a balanced team. What happens when a team of 4 FoC hex spammer necros and 2 migraines face a balance with say, 2 monks, warder, shock, and a starburst? Put a migraine on each monk and theres not much you can do. So, balance adds a monk or adds a ritualist. Now balanced teams have very little offense, though they can win. Now pressure has to add a monk to keep it alive, but pressure will still end up winning. So basically, you get the same situation we have today, except instead of the rock/paper/scissors we have now (spike, pressure, balance), it will become rock and paper. Soon everyone will play paper cause it always wins, and we are worse off then we were in the first place.

Of course, I might be completly wrong. Its all speculation. But IMO HA should stay 8v8. Even though there are long waits, thats part of what makes it all the more exciting to go in and win. Thats one of the reasons I dont really like RA or TA. You go in with a minimum wait 2 minutes and if you lose who cares? and if you win.. who cares?

On another note though, 6v6 would be a great added arena.

Also...

Quote:

If HA got GvG size maps, yes to 8vs8. but now, make HA 6vs6.

If HA got GvG size maps it would be essentially the same gameplay as GvG ( without worry of the flag stand, and the Guild Lord basically being the Preist on some maps). HA would be more of a long term startegic game then a quick-thinking do it right now or you cant win type of game.

If parts of this dont make sense, I apologize. Its quite late where I am and I'm tired.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 31, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Personally, I dont think I'd like 6v6 in HA permenatly. IMO, the metagame would turn to complete pressure teams (Iway, ViMway, and maybe some new 6 man hex pressure), and balance would become only for those that could really perfect it.

With only 2 monks for 6v6, pressure builds will kill a balanced team. What happens when a team of 4 FoC hex spammer necros and 2 migraines face a balance with say, 2 monks, warder, shock, and a starburst? Put a migraine on each monk and theres not much you can do. So, balance adds a monk or adds a ritualist. Now balanced teams have very little offense, though they can win. Now pressure has to add a monk to keep it alive, but pressure will still end up winning. So basically, you get the same situation we have today, except instead of the rock/paper/scissors we have now (spike, pressure, balance), it will become rock and paper. Soon everyone will play paper cause it always wins, and we are worse off then we were in the first place.

Of course, I might be completly wrong. Its all speculation. But IMO HA should stay 8v8. Even though there are long waits, thats part of what makes it all the more exciting to go in and win. Thats one of the reasons I dont really like RA or TA. You go in with a minimum wait 2 minutes and if you lose who cares? and if you win.. who cares?

On another note though, 6v6 would be a great added arena.

Also...

If HA got GvG size maps it would be essentially the same gameplay as GvG ( without worry of the flag stand, and the Guild Lord basically being the Preist on some maps). HA would be more of a long term startegic game then a quick-thinking do it right now or you cant win type of game.

If parts of this dont make sense, I apologize. Its quite late where I am and I'm tired.

no, it makes total sense.

Here's what I'm thinking: they're beta testing a new arena 6v6 for Nightfall (that gives you fame maybe) and they want to see if they should scrap it or not, like that weird arena in Factions everyone was always talking about.

orthrus · Aug 31, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Put a migraine on each monk and theres not much you can do.

I seriously doubt a migraner will be able to interrupt a boon prot, which will most likely be atleast a part of the backline in 6v6, a blessedlight is interruptable, but should be able to counter migrane with another monk removing his hexes. so basicly migrane becomes a waste of an elite (even more so then it is already.. there's way better elites if you want to shut down a caster)

FrOzEnMaGe · Aug 31, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

whats this "testing beta arena for nightfall" come from lol wow iway/spikers are really scared outa their minds.

/go back to pve

balanced need skill, everyone on the team must do their job for it to work.
and gw is all about how much skill you got isnt it? atleast thats what i been told.

Sacho · Aug 31, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Funny...I don't see a surge in migraine users in GvG, where 2-monk backlines are a regular sight...

TA teams even run with just one monk, holy crap, put migraine on him and gg?

I think 6v6 would be a great change. HA's maps are far too small and uncomfortable(movement-wise) to warrant 8v8. If anything, 6v6 would be a a refreshing framework to base builds on. Are 2 monks enough, or maybe too much? How much support are you going to bring, how much offense? Personally, I'd love it if the whole HA mechanic is reworked. Some of those maps are quite interesting strategically but simply fail by the current HA design of having a set objective usually including some AI that is abused to hell and back.

Lord Mendes · Aug 31, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

QFT. I think a lot of you guys need to chill out. Its a 1 weekend thing, not the end of the world.

I think i came on a bit strong. I would personally love to have HA 6v6 for a weekend or a week even.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

brilliant idea.
At least there will be some new competion and builds we havent seen b4. And when it comes to IWAY or Vimway, it will still b the same as always, they will beat the bad teams and get pwned by the good ones.
+ the double fame is nice

This thread is a poll asking if we would like HA 2 b 6v6 permanently, which many people i know including myself would hate.

Random Nonsense · Aug 31, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

/signed HELL NO

8 vs 8 is fine the way it is. There are more things to kill, thus making you more faction and teaches you how to play better. I think if there was 6 vs 6 we wouldn't see all the annoying gimmick builds that we beat, but it makes you play better. 6 vs 6 would destory spike builds, IWAY, and the things we possibly love. It's a horrible idea. You would see so more and more of Order of Apostasy and Enchantment removals because everyone would be running Boon Prots!!

Loch · Aug 31, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I think the best argument for making HA 6v6 is - Why should a puggable PvP mode require 8 players? That's a damn hefty requirement to fulfill. 6 sounds quite reasonable, on the other hand. I probably wouldn't like to see it go down to 4 players though, since the point of HA is that it's "bigger" than Arena play.

xBakox · Aug 31, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Wow dur dur. My bad. As I said it was late last night. I totally forgot to consider boon prots/blessed lights.

. So I guess 2 migraines wont work, but I bet some sort of PD/blackout will be the trend of the month (or weekend). Or NR/tranq will be remade to fit 6 players.

Btw no need for such harsh comments, I was just speculating.

Nurse With Wound · Aug 31, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Anyway, here are the results so far:

Yes - 19 votes
No - 12 votes

Such results doesnt say us much, as most votes for "yes" are from those people who rarely play HA, or dont play it at all, and doesnt really care about it. Oh there was also one vote for " yes " from notorious IWAYER, because he knows well that his beloved build will work with 6 players as well...

Anyway, lets see how it will look in the end. I still dont believe that anet will remove the chance of fast paced, competetive 8 vs 8 pvp, simply because lots of regulars who spend most of their in game time in Heroes Ascend will be VERY dissapointed.

tomcruisejr · Aug 31, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrOzEnMaGe

whats this "testing beta arena for nightfall" come from lol wow iway/spikers are really scared outa their minds..

You sure? Look below..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

....I have chatted with people from some of the best HA guilds (LuNa, DOGS, sOap, then, SeeK etc...) and they ALL said that they would quit HA if it was permanently made 6v6.

Maybe they are afraid that they can't win anymore?

6vs6 Tombs is a fresh environment that will encourage non/retired-Tombers to play, make people form parties easier without resorting to FoTMs, not favor certain builds, give more chance for more builds to be played and facilitate the transition from 4vs4 to 8vs8(GvG).

those against 6vs6 are providing weak arguments such as less people to kill, will be akin to medium sized TA (god!) and speculation that only pressure builds will dominate in there.

orthrus · Aug 31, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

dont worry, we're not affraid of not being able to win anymore.. we're affraid HA will be dominated by the type of builds we hate most, simply because in 6v6 it is hard to have a good balance between offense and defense in balanced teams, and the players that do play balanced, will have to be very good at it. it wont be as easy as it is now to win.

i'm not saying it'd be bad if there's some more challenge in HA, the way it is now it's way too easy to win.. guilds shouldnt be able to hold 8 times in a row during euro prime time, but still, we do (cant say i mind, it's good fame and the sigils add up to be a nice amount of money. farming the halls chest is the best farm in the game). but we just dont want the difficulty to increase because of the same (imo) shit build over and over again...

JR · Aug 31, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthrus

it wont be as easy as it is now to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthrus

the way it is now it's way too easy to win

I realise you later justified this comment, but it still made me laugh.

I honestly don't think that 'balanced' will be any less viable than it used to be, with a 6 man teams. However I am waiting for the weekend it's self to make sweeping statements about it. I don't think that even the most experienced tombs player can simply say '6 man teams makes it easier for IWAY and ViM', without having tried it.

Wait and see.

tomcruisejr · Aug 31, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthrus

i'm not saying it'd be bad if there's some more challenge in HA, the way it is now it's way too easy to win..

and the way it is now forces players to play what works well in Tomb. and that stifles variety.

Lord Dark Genie · Aug 31, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthrus

dont worry, we're not affraid of not being able to win anymore.. we're affraid HA will be dominated by the type of builds we hate most, simply because in 6v6 it is hard to have a good balance between offense and defense in balanced teams, and the players that do play balanced, will have to be very good at it. it wont be as easy as it is now to win.

i'm not saying it'd be bad if there's some more challenge in HA, the way it is now it's way too easy to win.. guilds shouldnt be able to hold 8 times in a row during euro prime time, but still, we do (cant say i mind, it's good fame and the sigils add up to be a nice amount of money. farming the halls chest is the best farm in the game). but we just dont want the difficulty to increase because of the same (imo) shit build over and over again...

Basically, you're SPECULATING that some gimmick builds will dominate more than now.

Just wait and see. Balance issues are my main concern too, but I think it'll work out.

Divineshadows · Aug 31, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Such results doesnt say us much, as most votes for "yes" are from those people who rarely play HA, or dont play it at all, and doesnt really care about it. Oh there was also one vote for " yes " from notorious IWAYER, because he knows well that his beloved build will work with 6 players as well, while lots of nice balanced counter for it wont.

I have no problem with "notorious" IWAYERs and it baffles me every time people express views like this over the forums. Either your winning percentage against IWAY is good and have no reason for disdain and actually prefer to face IWAY teams OR your winning percentage against IWAY is bad and can only look inward at your own team for either not running the right set of anti-melee skills, having players that don't know how to kite, or picking up bad PUGs (such as the bad PUG monks Vindexus complained about that will be easier to recognize in a 6 man team instead of an 8 man team).

Correction, several of the votes (or hopes) for yes come from players that used to do HA but left it after recognizing just how bad the HA environment is as far as a competitive PvP environment is concerned.

I have noticed that the contigent of players that prefer IWAY were voting yes as well. I disagree that this has anything to do with IWAY builds scaling down to 6 better than other builds. In fact, I think balanced scales better to 6 players than IWAY builds do. I think that the IWAY players instinctively know that holding builds are going to be much harder to make with 6 players, because said holding builds are going to still have to kill teams along the way to HoH. More turnover and less holding builds is a good thing for HA IMO.

Here's another way to look at it. In 8v8v8 HoH, the holding team is a team of 8 trying to stave off a total of 10 opponents (subtracted out 6 monks as opposing monks are non-threatening in a holding situation). In 6v6v6 HoH, the holding team is a team of 6 trying to stave off a total of 8 opponents (subtracted out 4 monks). That differential of 2 players makes more of a difference when the overall numbers are reduced. Also, the incidental damage and interrupts from opposing ghostly heroes also becomes slightly stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

I still dont believe that anet will remove the chance of fast paced, competetive 8 vs 8 pvp

What's fast paced about 2 retarted holding builds with only one warrior (or perhaps no warrior) each grinding it out for over 30 minutes on the 2nd phase of scarred earth? Now, I never played in one of those types of builds but I see that crap in observer mode all too often. I actually opted for an offense that could actually kill things (warriors and mesmers) and just held in HoH by consistently giving up the altar, re-capping, and interrupting enemy ghostly heroes like mad.

At least the contingent of IWAY players have the right idea about what is fast paced and what is not...

What's competitive about a form of PvP where spellbreaker is a de facto standard and almost all teams handicap themselves from the start by bringing this elite? What's competitive about a form of PvP where channeling monks that do not know how to kite are as abundant as the fish in the sea? What's competitive about a form of PvP where many builds contain an entire character dedicated to not doing damage and not healing but hey at least this character cannot be knocked down doesn't that make you happy (i.e. the oath shot spirit spammer)? So many different ways for teams to handicap themselves before even entering. Back in my HA hayday which lasted for a couple months when I used to lead a guild that won HoH often using spellbreaker and 2 copies of the gut-wrenching healing seed skill, I recognized that the build was handicapped and that we were beating other handicapped teams which brings me to my final point. Winning the hall of heroes is like winning the special olympics.

You may be right that A-net would refuse to make such a change permanent for fear of alienating some of its player base, but some of the changes in the past have been quite bold (changing protective bond and limiting minion count) and yet Guild Wars as a game has seemed to survive every time.

Frank Dudenstein · Aug 31, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

This is definitely a beta for an HA change and NOT a new PvP gametype. There are not that many PvP players to begin with, and they are already spread thin between HA, GvG, and TA.

They couldn't add another serious gameplay type without thinning out the amount of players in each even more... alex, gaile, and other devs have repeatedly stated that.

xBakox · Aug 31, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

those against 6vs6 are providing weak arguments such as less people to kill, will be akin to medium sized TA (god!) and speculation that only pressure builds will dominate in there.

I was not arguing, purely speculating about the pressure (however weak it was). I'm not ready to say yes right away to 6v6 like some here, but I'm not going to say no either like others here.

I'm going to wait and see how it goes, so dont take anything I say as a serious argument for or against it. I'm actually excited for it as it will bring an interesting new change.

Thom · Aug 31, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Few points:
-Anet tends to have solid numbers on participation rates. Even without those numbers it is fairly clear that HA is losing numbers in comparison to other PvP types.

-HA has a high barrier to entry which keeps new players out, while it doesn't retain numbers because people leave after achieving a desired emote. 6v6 reduces some of this barrier by allowing easier pug organization.

-Changes to HA should reflect the desires of those who have gotten bored with HA as much as those who enjoy the game type.

-Holding is the ultimate "build over skill" situation. The ability to kill and hold is significantly reduced with 6 players. For this reason alone the reduction should be permenant.

-Pressure builds will be viable, but less complex. Pressure really is only so good in HA, so I don't see this as a huge problem.

-With the success of the vastly different 4v4 and GvG, I feel that the 6v6 game type would benefit guildwars PvP. I personally don't feel that HA has been a similar success.

orthrus · Aug 31, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

these are just my expectations of what will happen in 6v6 HA, i'm not saying this is what will happen (maybe it seems like that, if so, my bad).. i'm merely giving my opinion and i'm concerned about the viability of balanced builds in 6v6, i'll have to wait and see till tomorrow if it'll really be the case or not.

and JR-, when a team can hold for ages (even with one player having to leave half way through) that tells me something isnt completely right.. i guess that could be one of the good things about 6v6, i expect holding to be harder