Curse

Nurse With Wound · Oct 02, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

1. New maps.
2. Less skips - its better to wait a littlebit longer for a new game, than being skipped straight to HOH after underworld. - Add a limit to maps you can skip - lets say one map only.
3. Add extra fame point ( or two ) for the Scarred Earth map.
4. Increase the HOH timer to the old value - the match will be more strategic, holding the altar will be harder.
5. At least one drop for every player from the HOH chest. This is simply unfair that some get 2 sigils, and some get compleatly nothing!
6. More overused skill nerfs ( vim, iway, ooa, og ), which will force creative thinking, and will promote balanced style of gameplay.
7. Fix the morale bug - when your ghost deals the final blow to the enemy hero, you get no morale boost. Why?

Reset of the fame ranking would be horrible idea. Whats the point of punishing people who are more experienced and worked hard for their rank? Jealousy of those who are unable to win fame points?

Also QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Furthermore, why should HAers care about the changes you, a GvGer, would like to see in HA? HA and GvG are inherently differently styles of play, neither should be changed to appease those who prefer the other.

Mental Leteci · Oct 02, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

4. Increase the HOH timer to the old value - the match will be more strategic, holding the altar will be harder.

No it won't and it wouldn't be any harder to hold. People who can hold at this timer could hold at 10 minutes timer as well.
10 minutes - waste of time

Lena A · Oct 02, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Open the 2 doors in Scarred Earth as soon as the first team win.

increase HoH timer to 6 min.

deacrese the courtyard timer to 6 min max.

replace burrial by another map.

The Silver Star · Oct 02, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Change Courtyard to 5/6minutes, put scared earth back to 6 man and gates open all gates open at the start. Leave the HoH chest as it is as when i win i always delete what i get anyway maybe a way t remind you not to delte your pvp char eg "YOU LEFT YOUR SIGILS ON THAT PVP CHAR YOU MUPPET" something like that. Dont nerf vim/iway they keep HA alive and give me nice fame when i kill them. Face it without iway HA would die and you know it.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Is Pyrrhus

I have to laugh at the top 50 GvGers who think HA is the pinnacle of FoTM, and GvG is just creativity central. Certainly it's a generalization, but most GvG builds consists of 2 melee characters, 3 caster supports, 2 monks, and a runner.

Tons of builds have more than two melee characters. Running 3 warriors is common in pressure builds, and tons of builds run an assassin for ganking.

'Support Casters' doesn't mean anything. It could apply to so many characters that it really says nothing about stagnation of builds.

Saying that every build has "monks and a runner" is like saying "It's an 8 character metagame." There are some things just about every build needs to be successful.

GvG certainly has its problems. It's possible for bad players to dominate the ladder by playing spike on the burning isle in a lot of games. However, GvG continues to develop and evolve as a metagame, while HoH has stayed in about the same place for a very lng time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Why do you care about HA if you've already found your niche with GvG? Furthermore, why should HAers care about the changes you, a GvGer, would like to see in HA? HA and GvG are inherently differently styles of play, neither should be changed to appease those who prefer the other.

GvG and HA are different styles of play because of the way the maps are set up, fame, and the basic rules of HA. HA at the low level is about winning as many matches as possible as quickly as possible without regard for losses. HA at the higher level is about getting onto the altar with a holding build and gaining massive fame and sigils over the course of a few hours. At every level, HA is about grind - players going into HA aren't playing to beat the best teams, they're playing to beat enough teams that the number will go up. The gametype, at its core, has more in common with PvE than GvG.

I'm not saying that everyone would like these changes, but with Nightfall and Factions there are a lot more casual PvP arenas. Another PvP gametype that requires real strategy and focus on winning would make the game a lot more interesting, in my opinion. The Hero PvP particularly seems to be entirely oriented towards casual players. Since 3 of the targets in Hero PvP are AI, it won't be long until several builds are posted which bad players can use to win without a lot of difficulty. Timmy can still take his PvE warrior and grab a build from the internet, then dominate because most of the team he's fighting is the functionally retarded AI he's used to. Newer players can ease into PvP through that, through the arenas, and through ABs - once there they can get into the more strategic gametypes of GvG and HA. Not everything needs to be based around casual play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephket

And I guess GvG doesn't mave gimmicks? LOL Also, there is a lot of balanced in HA, you just don't see much of it on the first map or two.

I played HA with my guild the other day. Over the course of a couple runs, way more than 50% of the teams we faced were Bloodspike, all the way up to HoH. Another 25-30% were ViMway.

I played GvG with my guild yesterday. In our 10 (I think) games we met 2 rainbow spikes and 8 balanced builds that both applied pressure and spiked effectively.

Furthermore, in GvG it's much easier to outplay a gimmick build on most maps. If they suck at GvG you can run them around, kill their NPCs, force boosts, ect. That's not to say you can't win with a gimmick in GvG - quite the contrary, bad players can gimmick their way into the top 20 without too much trouble. However, in an individual match you have a lot more options for outplaying them.

B Ephekt · Oct 02, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

GvG and HA are different styles of play because of the way the maps are set up, fame, and the basic rules of HA. HA at the low level is about winning as many matches as possible as quickly as possible without regard for losses. HA at the higher level is about getting onto the altar with a holding build and gaining massive fame and sigils over the course of a few hours.

I’m not really sure why you felt the need to say this, but thanks I guess.

Quote:

At every level, HA is about grind - players going into HA aren't playing to beat the best teams, they're playing to beat enough teams that the number will go up. The gametype, at its core, has more in common with PvE than GvG.

If you find HA to be a grind then don't play there? I play HA for fun, as does pretty much every other HAer I know. Yeah, sometimes we're looking to get some fame, but I don't feel like I'm farming or grinding in pve - and could honestly care less if others do.

Quote:

I'm not saying that everyone would like these changes, but with Nightfall and Factions there are a lot more casual PvP arenas. Another PvP gametype that requires real strategy and focus on winning would make the game a lot more interesting, in my opinion. The Hero PvP particularly seems to be entirely oriented towards casual players. Since 3 of the targets in Hero PvP are AI, it won't be long until several builds are posted which bad players can use to win without a lot of difficulty. Timmy can still take his PvE warrior and grab a build from the internet, then dominate because most of the team he's fighting is the functionally retarded AI he's used to. Newer players can ease into PvP through that, through the arenas, and through ABs - once there they can get into the more strategic gametypes of GvG and HA. Not everything needs to be based around casual play.

Everything you just said still comes back to GvGers saying “hey let’s make HA work like this because it works in GvG” which was my entire point. HA is not GvG, they’re two completely different styles of play, and that’s why most people prefer their style of 8v8 pvp. I seriously doubt the people wanting to change HA into a second GvG would actually even play there if they had 6-8 players that could GvG anyway, so it all seems a bit silly that the most vocal people for these changes are generally GvGers.

I really hope we see the addition of a 6v6 arena so players of both would have an alternative, and GvGers could stop pining over how HA works.

Quote:

That's not to say you can't win with a gimmick in GvG - quite the contrary, bad players can gimmick their way into the top 20 without too much trouble.

This was my entire point. All I can say is ‘fair enough’ on the rest, but there is a lot more balanced being play in HA than you probably recognize.

Mental Leteci · Oct 02, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Furthermore, in GvG it's much easier to outplay a gimmick build on most maps. If they suck at GvG you can run them around, kill their NPCs, force boosts, ect.

If running them around and forcing morale boost is easier outplaying then we have nothing to talk about here. In HA any gimmick build gets owned in 3-4 minutes. It all depends how good HA player you are (or GvG player in your version). 3 days ago I saw a good GvG player (won't say his name,but let's just take him as a really good GvG player with Champion (4) title) usnig healing signet in HA. It's probablly normal to him,but we laughed at it,couldn't help ourselves. My point is that HA and GvG isn't even close so don't even try to compare it. And saying that GvG requires more tactics etc. is bullshit.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

If running them around and forcing morale boost is easier outplaying then we have nothing to talk about here. In HA any gimmick build gets owned in 3-4 minutes. It all depends how good HA player you are (or GvG player in your version). 3 days ago I saw a good GvG player (won't say his name,but let's just take him as a really good GvG player with Champion (4) title) usnig healing signet in HA. It's probablly normal to him,but we laughed at it,couldn't help ourselves. My point is that HA and GvG isn't even close so don't even try to compare it. And saying that GvG requires more tactics etc. is bullshit.

I'm not going to turn this into an 'HA vs GvG' debate - what I am going to say is that HA right now is pretty lacking, tactically. This is demonstrated by the massive number of FoTM builds that continue to dominate. Not a day goes by when I don't see a Bloodspike or something win Halls at least a few times, and those builds obviously work for farming fame because players continue to run them.

I would like to see more tactical depth in HA. Tactical depth comes from multiple control points and a variety of possible tactics available to outplay teams. The only gametype that comes anywhere close to that in HA is relic run, and one of the relic run maps is damaged by the fact that it has only one real path between the control points, making bodyblocking too easy.

Really I think there has been too much focus on the "Lose fame for losses" idea. The change would make Fame and Rank meaningful, but it's not really necessary to improve HA as a gametype. Improving HA as a gametype is more about map/rule changes that could make the individual games more fun - if the game itself was fun I would play HA and just ignore fame.

The fact that HA is so focused around Dias is a large part of the problem. Dias is a gametype that throws positioning and tactics out the window in favor of a bloodbath that ultimately comes down to who's best at protecting and managing a non-kiting NPC with the intellect of a paladin. A lot of the skills from dias also carry onto into annihilation matches. Fire eles are a good example. They're patently bad damage dealers in any other PvP gametype, but in HA they work because your monks are clustering around the enemy team trying to get Channeling bonuses, and you get to deal massive damage when 16 players hug their hero on the altar. If HoH itself were changed to rely on more strategic gametypes then "Seed The Ghostly!", it would go a long way towards improving both the annihilation matches and HoH itself.

There's a lot of other things that could be added too - environment effects that matter (not the shitty obelisks), and objectives that require you to actually move around the map or split up your team.

GW was advertised as a tactical PvP game where player skill determines the winner. Then you have maps like Courtyard that are more about politics and who gets ganked then which team is actually skillful. I'm not specifically trying to make HA like GvG, but I am trying to make HA fun and interesting to play in.

T-R-A-S-H · Oct 03, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lena A

replace burrial by another map.

QFT.
i hate bloodspike who are running all the time.

hazmat · Oct 03, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

The thing I hate the most about HA is the wait time (the elitist HA trash are up there on my list too).

Better party forming, smaller team size (6v6), ranked districts (someone else mentioned this I think), and skill balances for things like iway, vim, etc. There are lots of changes that could be made, will anet ever do them is the real question.

Zui · Oct 03, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazmat

The thing I hate the most about HA is the wait time (the elitist HA trash are up there on my list too).

Better party forming, smaller team size (6v6), ranked districts (someone else mentioned this I think), and skill balances for things like iway, vim, etc. There are lots of changes that could be made, will anet ever do them is the real question.

IWAY and ViMway are 100% balanced. The only 'problem' with them is they are able to beat bad players really fast.

hazmat · Oct 03, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

when i said "balance" i should have said "change", is that better?

The Silver Star · Oct 03, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Stop complaining about iway/vim there not over powered they just apply alot of sudden pressure and are easily beaten. If you dont like blood-spike then get a better infuser, bring fertile and use interupts. I dont usualyl have a problem againt blood-spike as i run interupt builds most of the, which pwns blood-spike. However i like all the r3+ OG spike its nice free fame. As for the lose fame for loss's thing... thats a stupid idea and was probably suggest by a low or unranked person that cant get fame.

So what im saying is why complain about all these builds when they are easily countered, there just simple and fun builds to put together that have a good chance of getting fame thats why people play them, as for people playing vim/iway it gives people without a mic/vent/ts to have some fun and get some fame mainly. However i dont like running an RC prot in HA but its needed because of all the condition builds such as vim.

shardfenix · Oct 03, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

The only HA builds that are broken are iway and smite. Most people don't think iway is broken because they bring WTFHAX counters for it like wards and characters who can walk away from snared warriors. The HA builds are fine. Except apostasy. That skill is rediculously overpowered.

I think we all agree that HA needs some new maps, and scarred needs to get the nerf bat. I loathe skipping to scarred earth and only getting 1 fame for beating 2 teams. Most teams I play with just resign at a 1-fame scarred.

Everyone hates relics, but it's necessary for preventing the advancement of holding builds. Honestly, relc levels were more challenging when the ghostly wouldn't take them, cause we actually had to DP the other team to win (80% of teams wouldnt resign after losing a /roll or rps.)

Yeah, there should be a DP match. That would weed out the iway noobs from getting to halls and giving the holding team a free win.

B Ephekt · Oct 03, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

The only HA builds that are broken are iway and smite. Most people don't think iway is broken because they bring WTFHAX counters for it like wards and characters who can walk away from snared warriors. The HA builds are fine. Except apostasy. That skill is rediculously overpowered.

Smite has already been nerfed a lot, I think it's at a point where it's still mildly viable but not overpowering in the least. IWAY is mostly a joke now, even more so than before. I can't say that I've even seen much IWAY since the last skill update either, and when I have they got rolled. Those MATH and POTS guys still try to run it, but they don't seem to get very far anymore.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Oct 03, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

You know, Squidget, it's possible that you see the creativity of GvG because you're at the top of the ladder, but FoTM builds flourish in GvG just as much as they do in HA.

Quote:

GvG and HA are different styles of play because of the way the maps are set up, fame, and the basic rules of HA. HA at the low level is about winning as many matches as possible as quickly as possible without regard for losses. HA at the higher level is about getting onto the altar with a holding build and gaining massive fame and sigils over the course of a few hours. At every level, HA is about grind - players going into HA aren't playing to beat the best teams, they're playing to beat enough teams that the number will go up. The gametype, at its core, has more in common with PvE than GvG.

Dude, that is such a gross generalization that I don't even know where to begin with a reply. You talk about HA being just about grind... are you familiar at all with the way the GvG ladder works? I assume you are; do you really go so far as to say that the GvG ladder isn't a grind? The players at the altar ARE the best teams, and it requires an immense amount of strategy to get your Ghostly to cap when you have rangers and mesmers spamming interrupts, and warriors and elementalists spamming knockdowns. I completely agree that GvG and HA have almost nothing in common, but for you to act as though GvG is all pure and free from grind and FoTM is just a joke.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 03, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Is Pyrrhus

Dude, that is such a gross generalization that I don't even know where to begin with a reply. You talk about HA being just about grind... are you familiar at all with the way the GvG ladder works? I assume you are; do you really go so far as to say that the GvG ladder isn't a grind?

I think you're reading too much into my post. I never said there wasn't a fair amount of grind and gimmicks in GvG (though the way GvG is set up makes win/loss ratio more important than pure wins.) I grimace when I play a Bloodspike in GvG because I know it's going to be a boring crappy match, and the ladder itself is a bit of a joke. I'm not saying that GvG is some holy grail of play that can't be improved upon - I'm actually quite critical of many aspects of the GvG gametype. However, this thread is asking what people would like to see to improve HA, so I'm bringing up things that would make it more fun for me. A lot of these changes are the sorts of thing I would like to see in GvG too. If someone makes a "What GvG changes would you like to see?" thread, I'd probably write another essay with a heap of things I think are mishandled in the GvG ladder.

You say that the teams who win the Hall are the 'best', but what are they the best at exactly? The mechanics of HoH (at least, every time I've been in it recently) come down to getting repeated interrupts on an NPC through whatever protection and disruption the enemy team can throw.

Since you don't want me to bring up GvG examples, I'll compare dias to relic run. In relic run there are a lot of tactics available. Do we kill the enemy ghostly? Who runs the relic, and when? Do we try to DP their team first, or go for the relic straightaway? How many people do we send to defend our own relic and ghost? Likewise, there are a number of counters to each of these tactics, all of which require allocation of resources (players) to certain points on the map. Meanwhile, dias only really has one tactic: kill the holding ghostly hero, bring up your own, and disrupt the others until he manages to cap. While there's a level of skill to be had there, being the best at blinding their Seeking Arrows ranger or Shocking their Claim Resource at the last second isn't exactly a tactical skill I'd brag about. It's something you learn, but there's no real variation or choices to make.

With the three-way battles, there is also a pretty serious element of luck and politics. I've had teams gank us or help us because they recognize our guild name or rank. I've won HoH with some pretty horrid teams, simply because we got a skip to Halls and managed to get our ghost in to cap. When games are decided by politics instead of player skill, you know there is a pretty serious problem with the gametype. Courtyard is obviously the worst about this (someone always gets ganked), but there are strong elements of it in HoH too.

I'm not trying to insult the HA players themselves. I think a lot of HA guilds take the game seriously and are quite good in the arena they're given. That doesn't change the fact that I'd like to see HA offer more opportunity for strategy and less reward for gimmick-farming than it does now.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Oct 04, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I'm not trying to insult the HA players themselves. I think a lot of HA guilds take the game seriously and are quite good in the arena they're given. That doesn't change the fact that I'd like to see HA offer more opportunity for strategy and less reward for gimmick-farming than it does now.

Acknowleged. I understand what you're saying now. Luckily for both of us, 6v6 is permanently implemented this Friday, ftw!

Thom · Oct 04, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

If you find HA to be a grind then don't play there? I play HA for fun, as does pretty much every other HAer I know. Yeah, sometimes we're looking to get some fame, but I don't feel like I'm farming or grinding in pve - and could honestly care less if others do.

That is the attitude that killed 8v8 HA. Squidget made all my major points, but the whole argument leads to HA being unpleasant for many players. I'm glad someone has been enjoying HA for the last 9ish months, because I really haven't.