Curse

Iraqalypse Now · Apr 21, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

The only real issue I have with the power hexer build is that I would take shadow strike out for blood ritual. Blood ritual is very good, it lets the rest of your team do more with their skillbars. You aren't going to be using shadow strike often enough to make is better than Barbed Signet, which at least has no energy cost. The blood damage should be used more as a finisher than as a starter - its nowhere near enough to make it worth the chance of giving away the spike, and the shadow strike needs to land first to be worthwhile.

torquemada · Apr 21, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Since you'd wandered a bit offtopic, let's get back on tracks...

Firstly, I'd like to mention that, though it's such as it is, you neglect the PvE aspect of the game. You may not play it, but a lot of people does. The whole fire line makes sense in PvE, AoE nerfs or no AoE nerfs. If you go out of the way to buff it to make more sense in PvP aspect, it would probably make a huge inbalance in PvE part. Fire Ellies still rock the PvE scene and can erase large mobs. So let's say fire line is somewhat "designed" for PvE...

Secondly, the trouble with AoE punishment is that it truly does not offer locational/positional punsihment in any way. It should work similar to interrupts: punishing, oportune and QUICK. Not to mention the useless Meteor Shower which first fires its nice graphics, then fires off damage, then KD. You can kite away with a /yawn. 5 secs for fireoff? You kidding me?
The possible solution to this would be to make these spells cast instantly - it still has insane cost and maddening cool-off but it would be able to punish mistakes or award clever bodyblocks.

Another thing that popped into my mind would be to make firestorm spammable and moving. It could slowly follow it's target punishing him if he wanted to get back into party "safe-zone" . Of course, the speed would have to be reduced not to be owerpovering. Just an idea.

And incereasing the area of effect would make for more tactical nukes. In this state they are neither tactical nor location punishing, so what are they? Pretty much useless.

I was wondering about Second Wind skill...since I didn't try it I'm uncertain if I'm getting this right...:

You gain 1 Energy for each point of Energy lost due to Exhaustion. This spell causes Exhaustion.

Does this mean you want to over-exhaust yourself by Gale/Obsidian?? Let's say you have like 80 energy, and are left with 10/10 via exhaustion...you cast Wind and it what...gives you back 70 energy? Or does it work in other ways? I also agree that making it Non-Attrib skill is a *brilliant* idea...argh...

I really don't mind other Ellie lines, but that's not the issue...nice support spells, warding, etc...whats the dish with PBAoE...I don't know...earth bomber could be viable but other classes would outperform him and he would get stripped and squished real bloody quick IMO.

The point of this tread is that Ellie is not a damage dealer as advertised, and it is truly not.

JR · Apr 21, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

Firstly, I'd like to mention that, though it's such as it is, you neglect the PvE aspect of the game. You may not play it, but a lot of people does. The whole fire line makes sense in PvE, AoE nerfs or no AoE nerfs. If you go out of the way to buff it to make more sense in PvP aspect, it would probably make a huge inbalance in PvE part. Fire Ellies still rock the PvE scene and can erase large mobs. So let's say fire line is somewhat "designed" for PvE...

This thread is about issues with Elementalists in PvP, the PvE side is a null issue.

dgb · Apr 21, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

Does this mean you want to over-exhaust yourself by Gale/Obsidian?? Let's say you have like 80 energy, and are left with 10/10 via exhaustion...you cast Wind and it what...gives you back 70 energy? Or does it work in other ways? I also agree that making it Non-Attrib skill is a *brilliant* idea...argh...

It gives you back 70 energy but your going to take an exhaustion hit so your max is now 0 and thus you gain nothing.

If you had 80 max, 60 exhaustion and used it you would see a +70 above your head, but it would only give you 10 energy max as after second wind exhaustion that is your max energy.

SolarisGW · Apr 21, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

Does this mean you want to over-exhaust yourself by Gale/Obsidian?? Let's say you have like 80 energy, and are left with 10/10 via exhaustion...you cast Wind and it what...gives you back 70 energy? Or does it work in other ways? I also agree that making it Non-Attrib skill is a *brilliant* idea...argh...

I would say that Second Wind will give you energy based on your current exhaustion but only up to [Max Energy Level]-[Exhaustion]. So if you have 80 max energy and 20 exhaustion and you are left with 20 energy, casting Second Wind will give you 30 more energy (20 from your current exhaustion plus 10 from Second Wind itself).

Edit: dgb beat me to it.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

Firstly, I'd like to mention that, though it's such as it is, you neglect the PvE aspect of the game.

What's been mentioned still applies to the PvE side of things, sometimes even moreso, even if it isn't being mentioned explicitly. The lack of good, spammable attacks is relevant, but less so in PvE because many battles are so short. Granted the fraction that are not are the important ones, but you can get away with a character with zero staying power in many parts of PvE.

On the other hand, concerns about armor become amplified in PvE because the monsters have so much of it. A fireball is pretty attractive when it hits for 119, but when you're fightning level 28 mobs it hits for 79 on *casters*, 56 on the melee mobs - basically it turns into crap very, very quickly. The same goes for the rest of the fire line. In endgame PvE, elementalists are particularly poor because of how significantly their damage is reduced, and there's nothing you can do about it.

I disagree with your assessment of fire elementalists rocking PvE. They're decent characters until you hit the Crystal Desert, but it's all downhill from there. By the time you're in the Fire Islands, New Tombs, the Fissure of Woe, or the Underworld, the fire elementalist has been reduced to a joke of a character. They just take forever to cast spells that barely deal any damage, and don't bring any utility to the table.

Peace,
-CxE

torquemada · Apr 21, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I disagree with your assessment of fire elementalists rocking PvE. They're decent characters until you hit the Crystal Desert, but it's all downhill from there. By the time you're in the Fire Islands, New Tombs, the Fissure of Woe, or the Underworld, the fire elementalist has been reduced to a joke of a character. They just take forever to cast spells that barely deal any damage, and don't bring any utility to the table.
Peace,
-CxE

I must agree...with the exception of Southern Shivs. Crystal Desert onwards I practicaly used earth/domination mostly. Sad but true. Except if your ranger packs Winter.
You still see nukers in those area (disregarding specialized barrage, SS-55 buddy-buddy teams,etc.) coz there's milions of ways to get around it. The damage is greatly reduced but it's still AoE, I guess...

To Solaris & dgb...thx, makes much more sense...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

This thread is about issues with Elementalists in PvP, the PvE side is a null issue.

I was looking at things from ANet side. If they buff a line that sees 99% usage in PvE to become useful in PvP and disrupts PvE side of things that's not balance, looking at the whole game, not just PvP-wise. PvE may be cakewalk, but a lot of players (therefore profit) comes from PvE...

Anyway, I think Ensign is right saying the core of ellie problems is nothing to spam/spread around that does anything of value. I mean, wasting slots for Conjure Flame+MoR (or Flare version) is totaly wasted on me...I was hopeful when I first saw Lava Arrows, but the range and dmg thingie....jeez!! If it was 3/4 range for 10-40 dmg it would be decent...

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

You still see nukers in those area...coz there's milions of ways to get around it.

You'll see people playing whatever characters they want in PvE, because PvE is easy enough to be successful with a wide variety of characters - there's no need to min/max there. Pick any sort of strategy you like, if you're not terrible and don't screw up the mission badly tactically you'll do fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

(disregarding specialized barrage, SS-55 buddy-buddy teams,etc.)

I think it's funny that people still think that the barrage team is 'specialized'. Specialized for what? Ripping through everything in PvE? Yeah, it's specialized at that. You only see it being used in Tombs on the American servers, but guess what - that build is good *everywhere* in PvE.

Take a minion master, an Order spammer, a monk or two, and a bunch of warriors and rangers that know how to attack things, and you'll blast through PvE like a freight train through a five year old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

Anyway, I think Ensign is right saying the core of ellie problems is nothing to spam/spread around that does anything of value.

Well that's the case for the fire line. That line also has problems with its bigger skills being really overpriced - the whole line is screwed up, really. The air line has no depth, you get Orb and Strike and...yeah. Nothing to deal damage with there. Earth never pretended that it was a damage line, and water is more about movement than damage so I don't know if there's really a problem there (basically the damage elements of the skills are overcosted, but the snare effects are undercosted so in most cases it balances into something reasonable).

That's for PvP though.

In PvE all of this is irrelevant because you hit the armor wall. A normal, level 28 monster has 24 more armor than a level 20 monster of the same type. That means that elementalists naturally deal 33% less damage in PvE than in PvP - except in the case of air which deals 27% less. Warriors and rangers only hit the wall about half as hard with their skills because of the significant armor ignorning component they have - they generally deal around 15% less damage to level 28 monsters with their skills. Necromancers and mesmers of course have armor ignoring damage so they go right around all of this.

Necromancers are almost strictly better than elementalists in high-end PvE. Their damage isn't reduced at all while eles get rocked by armor, so they actually deal more damage with better side effects as well. Plus you get more utility out of your lines as well. If you want AoE Spiteful Spirit is the best tool available, hands down - and it ignores armor - and if you want lots of AoE nukage just Order-up some Barrage guys and watch things die.

Or, in shortest terms - how are elementalists, as the profession rocked hardest by armor, supposed to deal decent damage to highly armored monsters when they can't even do it to squishy players?

Peace,
-CxE

Sha Noran · Apr 21, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Or, in shortest terms - how are elementalists, as the profession rocked hardest by armor, supposed to deal decent damage to highly armored monsters when they can't even do it to squishy players?

Now, I'm not advocating it, but I think they deal damage to high AL foes through effects that ignore armor, i.e. burning, Rodgort's Invocation, Obsidian Flame, etc. Like I said, it isn't really good enough, but meh, that's all I can see that they can do about it.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Yay, another reason to lengthen the burning duration on fire spells, up the armor penetration on air spells, and create more armor ignoring effects for earth. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Xpl0iter · Apr 23, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yay, another reason to lengthen the burning duration on fire spells, up the armor penetration on air spells, and create more armor ignoring effects for earth. =)

Peace,
-CxE

I wish, considering your actual thread + this, that your suggestion could fix the ele profession. I guess, adding spells or burning affects won't help much. Until this class has been reworked, those things wont mean much in PVE aspect. for PVP, i won't compare.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Ensign · Apr 23, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

I guess, adding spells or burning affects won't help much. Until this class has been reworked, those things wont mean much in PVE aspect.

I don't quite follow. Burning is incredibly useful in the PvE part of the game. Your mantra there is DPS, DPS, DPS, and burning fits the bill nicely. More importantly the burning effect ignores armor, so it gives those skills some added effectiveness in the PvE portion of the game that they desperately need.

The same goes for increasing armor penetration - if you rework skill damage with increased AP, they suffer less from the additional armor in endgame PvE without becoming ridiculously stronger against players.

Maybe they do need to rework the armor system entirely, but I don't think that's realistic, and I'm not sure it's neccessary. The proper tools might already exist to solve the problem, it's just a matter of identifying what they are.

Peace,
-CxE

cookiemonkie · Apr 23, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

If character class armor was taken into account....

For air spells, increasing the armor penetration to 40% vs warriors metalic based armor. Water spells ignoring armor unless it was Ranger class. Giving fire a little bit of armor penetration vs Warriors.

Xpl0iter · Apr 24, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't quite follow. Burning is incredibly useful in the PvE part of the game. Your mantra there is DPS, DPS, DPS, and burning fits the bill nicely. More importantly the burning effect ignores armor, so it gives those skills some added effectiveness in the PvE portion of the game that they desperately need.

The same goes for increasing armor penetration - if you rework skill damage with increased AP, they suffer less from the additional armor in endgame PvE without becoming ridiculously stronger against players.

Maybe they do need to rework the armor system entirely, but I don't think that's realistic, and I'm not sure it's neccessary. The proper tools might already exist to solve the problem, it's just a matter of identifying what they are.

Peace,
-CxE

I get what you mean, and your quite right i must say.
Ok, i will ask a simple thing which i have been wondering about for sometime now.
When we cast skills like fireball, why do they scatter foes? or Rodgorts, or Incendiary? i mean i do not see a point to them running with these specific skills. The damage has been done, its not damage over time spell like firestorm, or meteor shower, than why ? Burning, in your opinion is nice, which is fine by me, but what bugs me is the scatter issue over these skills which makes no sense.

I have casted a fireball on you. Too bad, you have got hit. So what?? The damage is done Stay and continue to pound the foe your pounding. Instead, they scatter like number of fireballs will appear out of thin air and will continue to inflict damage over time.
By the way, that was PVE side, pvp is a whole different issue.

Ah.. the frustration.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Loch · Apr 24, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Think logically for a moment. Your team just got slammed by an AoE nuke. The person who cast it probably has at least one more. Wouldn't you spread out to prevent future AoE's from hitting?

Xpl0iter · Apr 24, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Think logically for a moment. Your team just got slammed by an AoE nuke. The person who cast it probably has at least one more. Wouldn't you spread out to prevent future AoE's from hitting?

That was not what ANET came up with, was it? The upgrade of AI was against Area of Effect. The affect never lasted over 1 second, why running?
If the game had to be this logical, i would say, get rid of such in SS too.
Even Chaos storm works same way, mark of pain, and blah blah blah. By the way, a warrior holding one of After shock spreads foes too, i aint sure if the warrior is holding more than one, or do you disagree loch?
Mind you, the foe that got *Slammed* by my aoe, had atleast a 700 hp ( an ataxe ) , and got a damage of 32 health points. I really do not see even 5% of the damage being *slammed* by that so called AoE. So lets think logically and face it, issues are there. Ain't even touching titans right now.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

dreamhunk · Apr 24, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

the aera of effect update has only hurt gw. I know of alot of people who stoped playing because of it.

Sha Noran · Apr 24, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

If the AoE update bothered you to the point of quitting then I'm glad you're gone.

Xpl0iter · Apr 24, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

the aera of effect update has only hurt gw. I know of alot of people who stoped playing because of it.

maybe the update would have been worthwhile if this profession was fixed before the update. i remember my self participating in a petition against that update, where no less than 3000 replies were */signed*. And that was in the very first week, dont even know about now. If i find that thread, i will paste link.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

dreamhunk · Apr 24, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

less people playing gw means less people supporting the game. not only anet repation is on line.