Curse

damocles · Mar 29, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

You people need to actually read the posts in this thread. I was referring to the proposed changes Ensign suggested. And guess what, MoR is 15E and 5S recharge, or 4E under twin attunements or 11E under one attunement. Removal is just not an issue.

My problem is that, with those changes, mark of rodgort + flare seems to be a better way of inflicting pressure than immolate, if you can spare the skill slot. And potentially MoR combos quite well with the other fire nukes, so it's not entirely a wasted slot.

Maybe the time burden required to continually cast flare balances it out...

If you are referring to something, please state in your post you are.

Still under Dual Attunements and the propossed suggestions I would still go for Conjure Phantasm if you can afford to have a 12 Illusion attribute version of it (most likely in a spike/degen build). Cause it simply gives more pressure on the enemy party. Which is much harder to heal then pressuring 1 target.

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

If you are referring to something, please state in your post you are.

I did:

Actually, despite you saying that flare type skills shouldn't be attractive, you've succeeded in making it exactly that.. It's pretty obvious that I was referring to his changes.

Quote:

Still under Dual Attunements and the propossed suggestions I would still go for Conjure Phantasm if you can afford to have a 12 Illusion attribute version of it (most likely in a spike/degen build). Cause it simply gives more pressure on the enemy party. Which is much harder to heal then pressuring 1 target.

I can't imagine why you'd spec 12 in illusion just for CP, and certainly not why you'd run it in a twin attunements build which doesn't reduce the 10E cost at all. MoR at 16 fire is potentially far more destructive than CP, provided you have a few sources of fire damage on your team. Heck, your warriors should have elemental hilts on weapon switch, so that's an easy source of burning right there.

Seef II · Mar 29, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Your warriors will be running vampiric and zealous, not fiery.
Conjure phantasm's good because hex removal is harder to come by than condition removal, and people don't really want to remove it because migraine or something worse could pop up.

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

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Your warriors will be running vampiric and zealous, not fiery.

If you're running a PvE warrior you're not limited to two weapon sets.

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Conjure phantasm's good because hex removal is harder to come by than condition removal, and people don't really want to remove it because migraine or something worse could pop up.

Yeah, but MoR causes constant burning Are you going to waste that mend condition to remove a 4 second burn that will just get slapped right back on, or are you going to use it on a blinded/weakened warrior, or a dazed caster?

Linkusmax · Mar 29, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Fire Nuking can be viable, unfortunatly you have to use a build which can work while under the effect of Energuzung Winds. That skill is the only one I have found which makes Fire NUking viable, and mostly only because I can slap so much burning around. Meteor Shower is useless though, so is fire storm. Its all about Incedinary bonds and Rodgorts Invocation.

Earth eles at least became pretty good with factions, Sliver Armour, Shockwave and the crystal wave clone make for a pretty nasty combo. You can have wards in your skill bar too. We were running shockwave and obsidian flame in rainbow spike and it came over quite well as shockwave confused the hell out of their monks. The aftercast on those skills reduces their effectiveness though.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 29, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

Fire Nuking can be viable, unfortunatly you have to use a build which can work while under the effect of Energuzung Winds. That skill is the only one I have found which makes Fire NUking viable, and mostly only because I can slap so much burning around. Meteor Shower is useless though, so is fire storm. Its all about Incedinary bonds and Rodgorts Invocation.

Yep, these skills are pretty nice in a Fire build under EW - for the first 10 seconds of combat. Then you're sitting around waiting for them to recharge and not accomplishing much of anything.

That's not to say such a Fire ele is useless. The one you're talking about was used skill-for-skill in a Rifts build a while back for some incredibly frontloaded DPS to role the opposing team. As a consistent damager though, it's meh.

Linkusmax · Mar 29, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I dunno, I use the fire ele in a heavily modded version of rifts build, and it does put out pretty constant DPS, and even in matchs which last till 20-30 minutes that salvo continually hurts them, the 10 seconds isn't too bad because of the inherant cast time of the fire skills. by the time you cast the meteor in the chain a significant amout of the 10 seconds has elapsed.

The build we use actually has water ele for added preassure and just irritating their monks with hexes (when he isn't running the flag).

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Yep, these skills are pretty nice in a Fire build under EW - for the first 10 seconds of combat. Then you're sitting around waiting for them to recharge and not accomplishing much of anything.

Rifts used GoR in conjunction with energizing wind. I don't remember if they used serpent's quickness also.

wheel · Mar 29, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I bet this page has that build IMO

Linkusmax · Mar 29, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

It does, Rifts build was a great base for me to use to make some fun and effective build which use my favorite type of char beastmasters.

dgb · Mar 30, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

And guess what, MoR is 15E and 5S recharge, or 4E under twin attunements or 11E under one attunement. Removal is just not an issue.

It's 25e. Check your facts before using them in an argument.

edit: Apologies Symbol for not reading your post. I'll leave this here so that the thread makes sense.

Symbol · Mar 30, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

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It's 25e. Check your facts before using them in an argument.

Ok, now I'm starting to get irritated.

What part of I was referring to the proposed changes Ensign suggested. do you not understand? Learn to read.

Rey Lentless · Mar 30, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

It's 25 energy, figure it out already Symbol! We can't be bothered reading more than two lines of the last post before we spout meaningless crap out.

Here's a link I dug up instead of reading the rest of the thread.. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/21-mark-of-rodgort

Akathrielah, I don't think your air suggestions would work real well. I think ele spells have longer cast times (not just for dps reasons), but to allow rangers and mes's to interupt.

Symbol · Mar 30, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

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Akathrielah, I don't think your air suggestions would work real well. I think ele spells have longer cast times (not just for dps reasons), but to allow rangers and mes's to interupt.

I like the lower damage/higher AP part though, which will help on hard targets. But Ensign is right in that all air needs is a good spammable. If LJ is supposed to be knockdown, then shock arrow will have to take its place. Unfortunately shock arrow is really, really, bad as it stands.

Savio · Mar 30, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

It's 25e. Check your facts before using them in an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It's 25 energy, figure it out already Symbol! We can't be bothered reading more than two lines of the last post before we spout meaningless crap out.

Exactly why most "forum talk" devolves into meaningless crap. If you actually go back and read the thread (which is a skill seriously lacking in forum posters) you'd realize that Ensign made a LIST OF PROPOSED CHANGES. Which is what Symbol has been discussing the past few pages. Which is what the whole thread is about - problems with Elementalists and ideas on how to change them. Get a clue or stop posting.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 30, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Savio - might switch on the sarcasm detector there. I'm pretty sure Ray's post was meant in jest.

Regarding the Rifts build, it did use Glyph of Renewal, but only as part of a combo. GoR + RI + Incendiary + Meteor + RI, if I recall correctly.

Rey Lentless · Mar 30, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Exactly why most "forum talk" devolves into meaningless crap. If you actually go back and read the thread (which is a skill seriously lacking in forum posters) you'd realize that Ensign made a LIST OF PROPOSED CHANGES. Which is what Symbol has been discussing the past few pages. Which is what the whole thread is about - problems with Elementalists and ideas on how to change them. Get a clue or stop posting.

Are you serious? I thought I made it blantantly obvious that I was being sarcastic. Talk about getting a clue.

dgb · Mar 30, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Apologies, I misread, sorry for skimming your post Symbol. I retract my earlier statement.

Savio Rey Lentless' post was aimed at me, he did not deserve a blast for it, I suggest you apologise to him. The nature of the post makes it blindingly obvious that it was sarcasm towards me.

On your topic of forum quality, maybe you should look at your own post though. As soon as I read the correction, I accepted that I am wrong. I have now apologised. However did it really need three people coming on and making the point? If I had continued to argue maybe there would be a call for it, but having two people jump onto a bandwagon to call someone an idiot before they have had a chance to correct themselves hardly seems quality posting either.

I'm not a troll, and I try to contribute, but I make mistakes. Some of them quite basic and stupid as this one was. Symbol was right to correct me. Should Rey Lentless have jumped in on me? Maybe as it was a blindingly obvious mistake. Should you have? I'd say no, the point was allready well made and in the absence of any response from me. If I had kept arguing then I would have no qualms, but as it stands it looks like you wanted to drop a me-too line into it. I'm willing to apologise for the mistake, but give me a chance to do so before filling up the forum with your own garbage.

Was it really necessary to have three posts saying the exact same thing (and a misplaced flame from you), when as soon as I read Symbol's post, I started an apology?

edit: It appears since I hit the post reply button, two people have corrected you Savio. My post was composed without knowing of these posts, so while I am the third in the line (as I accused you of being), I'll leave it as I'm not trying to jump on the bandwagon.

Savio · Mar 30, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

I apologize. As this is a rather constant problem whenever anyone tries to have a serious discussion and is plauging a few other threads right now, I'm just getting grumpy over it. Symbol shouldn't have to state what he's discussing more than once, not 3 times to 3 different people. I shouldn't have vented it here though.

Ensign · Mar 30, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

I'm just curious, why not drop the damage on the air spells, increase the armor penetration, and price the spells more agressively and bring the recharge inline?

Well basically the skills are going to be spikey in nature simply because of the required packet sizes. Both the suggested Orb and Strike suggested below are ridiculous spike skills, for example. A skill with a one second cast time can only deal so much damage to avoid becoming a nigh-unstoppable spike skill. Anything that deals enough damage to kill in one hit (~100 or so) needs a 2 second cast to be fair. So you're really in a compact bit of design space, with 5-10 energy skills with short cast times that can't deal more than maybe 90 damage.

The skill in that demographic right now, Lightning Strike, is a fine skill and isn't terribly spikey. You could get a pressure build if you had a couple more skills like it available, but those just don't exist right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I've tried lightning orb + lightning strike + conjure. It's a good combo. But as you've set it up here, flare + rodgort will out dps it by a pretty healthy margin.

Then why doesn't it out-DPS it now? The change I proposed wouldn't even add 6 DPS to that combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I don't see why it's shit

Basically it's bad because both of those skills are individually weak, and the synergy between them, while there, really isn't anything unique. I'll go over both of those changes for your benefit:

Flare - the proposed change would raise it's damage by 10 at level 16, its DPS by 5.7/6.1, and it's DPE by two. If you're just hammering on one guy with Flare, it's comparable to beating on someone with a vampiric hammer (58 vs. 57 damage per hit), though each has its own drawbacks (one being vulnerable to kiting and blocks/evades, the other costing 5 energy per cast, taking up a skill slot, and being a projectile that misses moving targets on occasion). I don't think it'd be an utter joke, but you don't run a character or spend his energy for something that simple. Both Fireball and Immolate would deal better single-target DPS and DPE, and both have lots of other benefits as well - AoE, unerring, better spike, etc. Basically it doesn't outperform anything else in the line, and while running it isn't laughable if that effect is *really* what you want, it certainly isn't something that's going to put up much fight for space on what should be a really crowded bar.

Mark of Rodgort is just a really inflexible, underperforming skill. First you need to read past the lines and see it for what it really is - it's a skill that gives a target -7 health degeneration as long as the hex stays up and you babysit him. The problem with that, is that the real strength of health degeneration is the ability to spread it around. You don't want to put Conjure Phantasm or Life Siphon on someone and babysit them with more spells, you want to drop the hex and maybe another spell on them before moving on to another target and repeating the process, sometimes piling a bit of damage on top. The mark never really gives that option. You have to put it on someone, and just stay in their face with damage if you want it to matter at all. That really isn't all that good. In even the simplest PvP scenario, if you put it on a monk they can just kite back out of your range and your hex becomes completely worthless. Now consider that the damage from it isn't terribly efficient even at that cost (Conjure Phantasm is 5 pips for 10 energy, this is 7 pips for 15 as proposed), and that it has awful synergy with several of the stronger skills in the line which also cause burning, and you have a skill that's more of a gimmick than anything. Granted, again, at 15 energy it wouldn't be so overcosted that people laugh at it whenever they see it - but it similarly isn't about to be anything that you're going to find on a serious bar.

If you combined the two, yes, you'd be able to deal damage. That's a good thing because the whole point of this sort of line is giving the ability to deal damage. I mean if I proposed changes to fix the inability of a profession to deal damage, but even his basic 'deal damage' skills couldn't deal damage I'd look crazy, right? But Burning/Flare man isn't a particularly good character. Not only is he fragile and inflexible, but he isn't terribly efficient either and gets outperformed by any well-built fire elementalist. That, of course, is why those skills are bad - they're beginner skills, things that are minimally effective but eventually lose out to the better options that have to be available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Removal is just not an issue.

Removal is a huge issue when you're talking about spendy hexes that need to stick for a long time to be effective, like degeneration hexes are. You can't look at the recast and say, 'hey, I can force this on', you have to consider the opportunity costs involved. Every skill you cast, every bit of energy you use, is being used instead of something else. If your hex is getting pulled the efficiency of what is already a kinda poor source of degen goes to hell, and every other option looks that much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

My problem is that, with those changes, mark of rodgort + flare seems to be a better way of inflicting pressure than immolate

Well of course sitting on someone with Mark of Rodgort is going to deal more raw damage than an Immolate every 6 seconds. Given the energy costs and time involved (it's double the investment on both energy and time to get the same efficiency as Immolate on that first hit, and you have to keep milking that Flare for a while before you can start to get close to matching) it had damn well better be. But that's not actually useful because new targets come up, your better skills refresh, situations present themselves, and you want to react. The value of Immolate, if it was any good that is, is that it's a bit of pressure in a compact package. It's cheap and has a low time commitment, so you can just look at someone at pop them if there's nothing better to do. Basically it fits seemlessly into whatever fire guy you happen to be running and it gives him a tool that he can use whenever his job isn't needed.

Contrast that with Mark of Rodgort + Flare, which isn't just a skill that fleshes out a character with a larger purpose - Mark of Rodgort man *is* a character. The Mark is awful if you're not milking it - Flare is going to be bad regardless but it's basically pointless if you're not beating on someone with it. That's not a character with a lot of flexibility or the ability to really be money - that's a guy that's investing into a (rather bad) gimmick.

That's the whole point. You don't want characters that 'just inflict pressure'. Pressure needs to be a backdrop from which other, gamebreaking things happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

And potentially MoR combos quite well with the other fire nukes, so it's not entirely a wasted slot.

What fire nukes? The entire point of running a fire guy over some other sort of elementalist is the ability to rock people with AoE damage and burning when they present a situation to. Mark of Rodgort + AoE damage is not a combo. Not only would it only trigger on one guy for that investment of 15 in an AoE situation, but the guy you're putting Mark on might not even be in the AoE you're firing off - and if you do the trigger will be wasted often enough because the really rocking AoE skills cause burning anyway!

Mark of Rodgort at 25 energy is never worth the investment. At 15 it'd only be worth the investment if you can make it a 7 pip degen hex that lasts close to duration - and that's just far, far more trouble than it's worth.

Peace,
-CxE