Curse

Ensign · Mar 21, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

After looking over this profession's skill list for a long time and really thinking about the skills, I don't think as many are really as bad as I've made them look in the past. Instead I think that there's a philosophical problem with the way elementalists are set up.

The textbook example of this is Lightning Orb. I've played with the skill for nearly a year and while I kinda understood it in the back of my mind I didn't really get it to click until a few weeks ago. Orb is strictly a spike skill. If you treat it strictly as a spike skill, only throwing it at a target on a called spike or to assist warriors it's pretty decent. It's a bit spendy, but aren't spike skills in general? The problem is not Lightning Orb, but what Lightning Orb being a spike skill means. Tossing around Orbs randomly is about as productive as randomly Eviscerating people. You need to be casting more efficient things when you're not spiking, in the air ele's case...Lightning Strike, and uh, I guess Chain Lightning if nothing ever moves.

That is the real problem.

Every profession has some money things that it can do, skills they can use to change the course of a fight in the right situation. Elementalists, while we can debate the power of some of their tools, are not lacking in this department. They can help spike down a key target, punish a team with AoE, or drop Wards on an important tactical point. These money skills are either on longish recast times or restricted by situational usefulness. What characters need besides those big skills are some generally productive things to do until the time is right. Warriors can beat on things while rangers use preparations to spread conditions. Necromancers spread hexes around, monks use some smaller spot defenses, and mesmers are just one long skill list of generally useful goodies. Elementalists, by large, do not have good spammables to contribute even when they can't shine.

I think this is most apparent when you look at the water line. Water has a lot of good spells. Deep Freeze is worth every drop of energy and time you put into it with its excellent AoE and strong snare effect. Blurred Vision can stop a warrior spike and will make them scream for hex removal in any case. Shard Storm is good as a situational offensive snare to let your guys get to a target. Ice Spikes is less clear in its usage but it certainly isn't bad. What's the problem then? Well, what does a water elementalist do when he's not applying a Deep Freeze or his situationally useful stuff isn't called for? The only good answer I've seen so far is 'run a flag', which sums up the issue pretty clearly.

If elementalists aren't money, they don't do anything.

You see the profession run heavily as a utility class because that's where he can get spammables from other professions. Heal Party is the only spammable money skill in the game so it's a no-brainer for an ele to be in love with the thing. Being able to toss around, or Draw off, blinds gives an ele something spammable to do that's productive. Even going into mesmer for something like Conjure Phantasm can be incredibly productive for an elementalist, since it gives him something else productive to do while waiting for an opportunity for his money to shine.

I think that elementalists running Conjure Phantasm to help them deal damage is a clear sign that something is seriously, seriously wrong.

Which, circularly, brings us back to Lightning Orb. It's a fine spike skill. It drives me mad because I want a second spammable on an air elementalist to feel as though I'm really being productive offensively, to be able to put some even fleeting pressure on an opponent. I thought for a long time that Orb was supposed to be just that, but it isn't. It's a specialized skill, and I won't begrudge that role. The skill that I feel needs to exist for air elementalists to be a real offensive threat simply does not exist. The same is true for water and earth elementalists - fire gets a pass because while its spammables are atrocious at least the concepts are there for buffing.

For all the flack elementalists get, they do have a lot of skills that are actually ok. They just need some high-utility glue to hold them all together.

Peace,
-CxE

Ristaron · Mar 21, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Very well said. I personally love Elementalists, but as you say: they are very conditional for their usage. Elementalists only really shine when their build is designed to fit with that of the team.
Example: a bunch of rangers with fiery bows, the fire Elementalist on the team should slap 'Mark of Rodgort' on the target, and be more useful than butter on bread.
In PvP, while Mesmers can e-deny enemy monks, and Monks on your team can work on the other teammates; Eles should never solo. They are so much more efficient while working with the team.

Francis Crawford · Mar 21, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

I haven't PvPed much, but it seems that against a team with decent condition removal, there's always somebody (or something, if they're running pets) to Blind.

Admittedly, I've been playing in the easy environments where it's actually practical to run dual Attunements plus Aura, so that Blinding Flash costs me only 4 energy net and gives me a >50 HP self-heal bonus.

Of course, rangers are harder to deal with in this way than warriors ... I think I'd beat even an oddly defense-oriented warrior down eventually in the hypothetical 1v1, but it's much less clear in the case of a ranger (Antidote Signet and/or kite-until-Blind-wears-off).

Rey Lentless · Mar 22, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I think the root of the problem for eles is based around their energy management skills. Ele skills in general are way too expensive for what they do, but this can be dealt with by using things like elemental attunement, glyph of energy, etc. But since the energy efficiency of their skills is so bad, you almost always have to use part of your bar to deal with energy which essentially makes an ele bar smaller than every other class. I think ele skills were balanced by this potential (with attunements and the like), and their skill costs were jacked up accordingly. This isn't right. I think the energy management skills should be nerfed, and the overall efficiency of ele skills should be improved to fix this.

It would be like jacking up all costs of monk skills because monks can use things like channelling and OOB. Did that happen? No, channelling and OOB got nerfed. Same thing should happen with eles.

I think overall, GW has done a great job of balancing (compared to other games), but there still are a bunch of skills in the game that need to be looked at. I hope they continue to do so, even with their plans of adding new skills every 6 months. I certainly don't mind no new content for old versions of the game, but I do expect continued game balancing.

moriz · Mar 22, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

i believe i posted a solution to your ele problem, ensign, unfortunately i posted in the wrong section and it got removed.

for each elemental spell tree, add this:
"for each level, your wands do +(3...0) damage (+10 at level 16, or +8 at level 9)."

this will allow those sticks that ele's are often seen holding a bit more useful.

if needed, add this to the conjure spells:

"if you hit a foe with your wand while enchanted with this spell, you gain 1 energy"

it should help "fill in the gap", as ensign put it.

Bugeater · Mar 22, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

While the elementalist class does get some flack, it's certainly not because they don't have any good skills. It's mainly because they're given the tag of middle line damage dealer when really they're nothing of the sort. They are utility characters. You mention that they have a good number of "money" skills, which is true. My issue is that of the money skills there none that outshine any other class at dealing damage, spike or pressure. Sure they have a couple of decent spike skills, but so do 3 other classes.

That's my biggest beef. That in a game as rich as this in profession combinations and number of skills, there is one class capable of pressure damage. And the one other class that's supposed to have all the skills to do it is gimped by the fact that the skills all suck at damage. Maybe you're right and it's just philosophical, but I still like the philosophy of more than one damage dealer.

While adding some spammable skills would go a long way towards fixing them, it's not the only solution. Buffing some of the available skills would also be a viable alternative. A good DOT effect or two wouldn't have to be spammable to be effective pressure. Something (anything) that makes me pre-kite the elementalist coming into range because I know I could be in trouble if he can land a spell on me. I don't know, something like Spectral Agony maybe.

@Rey Lentless
I dissagree with your energy management assessment. I don't think their energy management is really that horrible. No one's complaining about mesmers' have downright decent energy management. But it's not because their primary ability does anything for them. It's their skills. Elementalists have as good energy management elites as anyone, and while the non-elites are good management, they're prone to being stripped.

Symbol · Mar 22, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Orb is a spike, true, but it's also supposed to be dps, otherwise why the 5 sec recharge? As a pure spike it's just a little above average. It does a good chunk of damage to soft targets, but it's expensive and unreliable.

I think lightning javelin is supposed to be air's spammable. Unfortunately it's yet another skill that's not practical to run without twin attunements.

Rey Lentless · Mar 22, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

I dissagree with your energy management assessment. I don't think their energy management is really that horrible. No one's complaining about mesmers' have downright decent energy management. But it's not because their primary ability does anything for them. It's their skills. Elementalists have as good energy management elites as anyone, and while the non-elites are good management, they're prone to being stripped

That's not my issue. My issue is that ele skills cost too much in general, and I think the reason for that is because of their energy management skills. They have these good energy management skills, so to balance it out.. they make ele skills cost way too much. The cost/effect balance for eles is way out of wack compared to the rest of the classes. Eles should have much better sustained damage without energy management than they currently do. Crap like flare should be virtually free, and other better skills shouldn't cost as much. Suggesting wands do more damage is a similiar suggestion, but I still think their damage should be damage based, so that their normal counter is retained (stopping them from casting spells).

I just suggest that they nerf the energy management skills because that's the only reason I can think that the other skills have such a high cost. I personally don't see them as overpowered, but if it's causing the other skills to have an inflated cost, then lose the inflation and nerf those skills.

zoozoc · Mar 22, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

instersting topic, in all reality, the eles just need a lot of work, weither anet will make them more of utility characters or more pressure, whatever way you go, they need a lot of work.

Symbol · Mar 24, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Ok, took a look at the list of new elementalist skills. It's clear that A.net has no idea what to do with this class. They've added a bunch of damage skills that suck, some good energy management, and some half assed utility. I'll go over the mess that is air for starters, doing all of them would be too depressing.

Lightning Hammer:
Where to start? It's a retardedly overcosted version of lightning orb that always hits and recharges three times slower. For this "privilege" you pay 25E. Clearly it's meant to be used in a Glyph of Energy spike build, but why anyone would bother when the good ol' obs flame spiker is about a bazillion times better I don't know.

Shock Arrow:
Wow. A spell that does the same damage as flare but with a 1s recharge? SIGN ME UP.

Gust:
A conditional gale without exhaustion but a higher recharge time. Oh, it does some piddling amount of cold damage too. Did I mention it's an elite? Thoroughly mediocre.

Arc Lightning:
Lightning strike that delivers an extra hit to someone nearby if the target is using a water hex. Unfortunately it has an 8 sec recharge, and you have no control of what the second target is. Best of a bad lot I guess.

These skills are, if anything, worse than the existing ones. I can't say that I'm surprised, but I'm still disappointed.

Byron · Mar 24, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Time to go on another highly anticipated spiel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Instead I think that there's a philosophical problem with the way elementalists are set up.

And I'm pretty sure that's been made sufficiently clear in the defining thread, "Why Nuking Sucks." We'd all love to see the skies turn black and the very ground spike and collapse when the elementalist conjures up its spell of choice, then to render all enemies to a pile of smoldering carbon-dust. But, for gameplay's sake, Balance>cinematic. It has to be this way, IMHO.

Quote:

Tossing around Orbs randomly is about as productive as randomly Eviscerating people.

Except for the fact that eviscerate will likely deal more damage with the deep wound factor, haha...

Quote:

Every profession has some money things that it can do, skills they can use to change the course of a fight in the right situation... Elementalists, by large, do not have good spammables to contribute even when they can't shine.

I'm not so sure that they don't; more like they've yet to be discovered and utilized. Though, none come to mind.

Quote:

If elementalists aren't money, they don't do anything.

That seems to be their definition in PvP play, which is what we are concerned with. GW is definitely a game that loves balance, but the PvE community is many times larger than PvP. "Money" skills are not at all an issue in PvE, so that is likely to blame.

Quote:

I think that elementalists running Conjure Phantasm to help them deal damage is a clear sign that something is seriously, seriously wrong.

As said in the other thread,only a front-loaded elementalist can deal out hefty DPS. While this isn't good, it is how it is.

Quote:

The skill that I feel needs to exist for air elementalists to be a real offensive threat simply does not exist. The same is true for water and earth elementalists - fire gets a pass because while its spammables are atrocious at least the concepts are there for buffing.

I think a hybrid may be in order. Perhaps orb and fireball could set out some good damage, even when sacrificing some power. I'm no ele specialist, but I don't think there isnt good reason to at least try a hybrid.

Maybe I'll fire up the old random arena test-building formula this weekend. As you say, the traditional elementalist, who dwells in only one spectra of skill-base damage, cannot be a reliable damage dealer.

GW, in order to counter this obvious imbalance, has put up some low-end spam-capable damage skills, such as Stone daggers. While daggers would be good inbetween obsidian flame hits, we all know those flare spells are mostly a joke, even with elemental attunement and 16 in the corresponding attribute. The advantage, seemingly, is the advantage of range and the reliability of the hit, since blind and/or weakness does nothing against flare type spells. That said, a migraine or arcane conundrum would do something against flare type spells, so the balance is again slighted.
The solution may be in beefing the spammable low-ends. An axe or hammer can do over 100 damage in one hit, and often does without any attack skills applied. I doubt stone daggers ever do over 60 damage, though they are somewhat more reliable than an an axe hit. Warriors will continue to be king of the jungle in the meantime.

Symbol · Mar 24, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

I'm not so sure that they don't; more like they've yet to be discovered and utilized. Though, none come to mind.

After almost a year do you really think there's some hidden L33tsauce strategy that no one has discovered?

Quote:

I think a hybrid may be in order. Perhaps orb and fireball could set out some good damage, even when sacrificing some power. I'm no ele specialist, but I don't think there isnt good reason to at least try a hybrid.

Doesn't work. Orb + fireball ~ 31 dps at 16 air/13 fire. That's barely better than basic flare spam.

Mared Text · Mar 25, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

After all the detailed posts about how the energy cost of elementalist spells is not proportionate to their results and how energy storage is only good for some burst damage at the start of a fight and a buffer for exhaustion, anet still implements these garbage spells. Do they not read these forums? Heck do they read any forums? Do they even play their own game? I guess they watch guild matches and see every team has an ele for blinding flash and heal party spam and they think thats good enough. Behold anets vision for the ele.

cookiemonkie · Mar 25, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Supplement the whole "energy storage" attribute line as "energy management"... with % savings similar to expertise and apply this energy savings towards elementalist skills that will be a big step towards making the line useful.

Symbol · Mar 25, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

One of the new spells really says it all about how much A.net seems to care about this class.

Smoldering Embers 5E, 2S cast, 10S recharge:
Target is struck for 10...42 fire damage. If target is not moving 3 seconds later it is set on fire for 3 seconds.

No one on earth would use this spell. It is like the elementalist's oytugh's cry. Amongst a veritable horde of shitty damage spells this one stands out like the steaming turd it is.

Did no one at A.net notice that they had something called "Immolate" that did more damage, casted faster, recharged faster, and was completely unconditional?

trialist · Mar 25, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Yeah, smoldering embers does stand out as a stinker. Heh 3 secs of burning if target doesn't move? Kinda a contradiction in itself, only would work if target was knocked down or something, but why do that just for 3s of burning? Might as well just pay 5 more energy for an immolate. Also, whats up with them adding all the pbaoes? They want us to play suicide bombs? Righhttt...

angshuman · Mar 26, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Just another silly gimmicky skill for RA.

Greedy Gus · Mar 26, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

When reading through the new ele skills, it seemed like every third one I thought to myself "That would own the ghostly hero, but not much more". So much AoE and hate toward non-moving targets.

Vel Satis · Mar 26, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

One thing that gets me about eles (please correct me if i'm wrong about this

) is that they're the only class whose primary attribute is worsened by using their own skills. For example, you don't get mesmer skills that make you cast slower for X seconds or monk skills that reduce your divine favor effect for X seconds so why should eles have their energy storage reduced by exhaustion?

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 26, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

On a semi-related note, what are thoughts on the ritualist as a damager? In many ways it seems to be built as one, with an entire line devoted purely to dealing damage.

I haven't had much experience playing the class as a damager, but we did meet a Ritualist played as damage in GvG last night. He arcane echoed Gaze From Beyond and used it to punish our warriors for frenzying. He also dropped Destruction which his team grouped up around pretty closely, meaning our warriors had to destroy it fairly quickly in order to avoid taking a lot of extra damage. It wasn't necessarily a great build, but we weren't familiar with the counters and it did do us quite a bit of damage.

Certainly one thing ritualists have going for them as a potential damager is mitigation. You can mitigate a lot of a warrior's damage just by kiting and positioning, regardless of your class, which is why warriors are so disruptive. Whoever they're attacking has to constantly move around and try to avoid the warrior, so they can't be doing what they need to be doing on the team.

Elementalists don't have this nearly as much. You can kite an elementalist to some degree, but with their effectiveness at range you're going to have to rely a lot more on your monks/disruption to stop an elementalist from raging your face. It's moot anyway since Eles skills don't allow them to deal damage, but it's something to consider if they get buffed.

Ritualists are different from eles because you can mitigate their damage excellently with spirit-control and positioning. As soon as you're at a range where they have to leave their spirits they'll be forced to switch targets or become much less effective, so Ritualists are like warriors in that kiting will make their life much more difficult if they do become damagers. The question is whether their skills will allow them to be used as DPS, or if they'll just be another utility class with spike potential.