Curse

Shortyafter · Oct 05, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Nice try. For one, monks aren't exactly told how to play by the caller. The monks don't change from a spike team or a balanced team, they play the red bar game, regardless of what the caller says. Spikes don't always go through, you miss a few spikes, and you'll see just how much pressure there is on the monks (just as much as it would be against any other team). Flag running isn't the piece of cake you make it out to be. The other team DOES split, if they split 4 inside your base, solo running a flag isn't "lol piece of cake because everyone is dead because the caller has a 'kill the entire other team' button that can teleport across between the splits and kill everyone". Duh. The team will deal with the split.

These things seperate the good spike teams from the bad. Nobody is saying that there aren't some spike guilds that are better than others. They are saying that spike requires less skill to play, generally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Like... surge/burn monks? Save shatter enchant for a spike? Drain a protted target? Blackout a frenzied warrior? Distortion when you see incoming? Hardres when someone dies? Zomg, so incredibly difficult. I'm not sure if I can manage this. It's all so much to think about. Oh man, and on a warrior, first I have to build adrenaline, then switch targets a few times to make them burn through a little protting/energy, and then call a target for a nice little adren spike. Holy crap. This is WAY too much thinking.

This is an epic and fundamental misunderstanding of what a balanced build is and what seperates the top guilds from everybody else.

It's stupid to try to defend your own pride because you happen to be in a top spike guild. The topic of this thread isn't "Why Deer is bad because they run spike". There are plenty of other spike guilds on the ladder. Whether or not Deer has terrible players, I don't know. But in my experience, and apparently in everyone elses experience, the large majority of "spike players" tend to lack a basic understanding of the mechanics and objectives of this game.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Name me 5 guilds that were rank700+ last season after gvging seriously with balanced, and are now top50. Try to name some that have a little name recognition. Of course, if you can't that's fine. I suppose I'll have to take your word for it that they were rank700+ last season, even though you'd never have seen them on TV to know. (I guess you just stalk every guild on ladder to see them move up right?)

Team IQ historic ladder ftw! There are ways to look for it. hard to pin down though, since most spike guilds fall apart.

:I respect DeeR as players, but you can flame the other guilds all you want.

shardfenix · Oct 05, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

I think he was talking about having the interrupter stay on the guy with enfeebling blood, making the OG part of the spike much less effective.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking aboyut blood spike. Blood spike does not bring OG. That would be OG spike. Quite frankly, if you run a build that solely relies on 1 condition in gvg, you aren't gonna win.

6 spikers can clean spike someone without a followup. Interrupt one of them and it's gg. That's what I meant.

Tell your warriors to spike right before the other team does. They can't heal while they're casting SS or LbS.

Just split on them and kill their archers and guards until they run back. Run it like any split strategy.

Lews · Oct 05, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Team IQ historic ladder ftw! There are ways to look for it. hard to pin down though, since most spike guilds fall apart.

:I respect DeeR as players, but you can flame the other guilds all you want.

Thanks!

XxUberMonkeyxX · Oct 05, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

beat cow by outplaying them, not bringing a gimmick build that they didn't have counters for, and then you have something going for you.

waiting it out till vod is a strategy isnt it?? im not here to argue so im asking if it is considered a strategy and th reason why i think that we got something going is EVEN if we are using a "gimmick" build i mean come on this late into the season and were still top 100 is something its not the greatest thing but it should mean something, if blood spike was so easy to run then how come not more guilds that want champion points running it to farm? which is what some of you guys said that it is relatively easy to go down rank with blood spike if so then why is there only 2 bspike guilds out in the top 100?

XxUberMonkeyxX · Oct 05, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking aboyut blood spike. Blood spike does not bring OG. That would be OG spike. Quite frankly, if you run a build that solely relies on 1 condition in gvg, you aren't gonna win.

6 spikers can clean spike someone without a followup. Interrupt one of them and it's gg. That's what I meant.

Tell your warriors to spike right before the other team does. They can't heal while they're casting SS or LbS.

Just split on them and kill their archers and guards until they run back. Run it like any split strategy.

we actually do run OG spike OG is a blood skill and therefore could be counted as a bspike build but the thing im trying to get across here is why flame us for running what were good at?? and besides if its so easy come down to top 100 with bspike and as for the splits go, [TARD] actually has a working 6 - 2 split which is why were 2nd for most wins this season and this is our first season btw so pls take it easy on us

and for those who are saying that bspike takes less skill than running a balanced build... i absolutely agree with you and thats comming from a member of a mainly blood spike guild in GvG alright? but all im asking is NOT respect but people not to flame us for using a gimmick because i do agree with the person that said balanced builds are practically gimmick because 90% of the balanced builds out there use the same exact skills that any other builds.

and also ive read somewhere in this thread that splitting on a purely spike build would determine the skills of the players by how they react to the splits and i believe that we do have that skill to adapt to a split and acomodate for the big W in the end

and also about the HA gimmick build the current gimmick is running 7 spikers with a rit spammer or 2 spirit spammer and 6 spikers. for gvg we use 2 emos live said b4 to acomodate the split so ya im done with this thread see you all in the ladder

pigdestroyer · Oct 05, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxUberMonkeyxX

waiting it out till vod is a strategy isnt it?? im not here to argue so im asking if it is considered a strategy and th reason why i think that we got something going is EVEN if we are using a "gimmick" build i mean come on this late into the season and were still top 100 is something its not the greatest thing but it should mean something, if blood spike was so easy to run then how come not more guilds that want champion points running it to farm? which is what some of you guys said that it is relatively easy to go down rank with blood spike if so then why is there only 2 bspike guilds out in the top 100?

because not everyone wants to be lowered to a bspiker.. I'd rather stay in the top 200 playing balanced than being "that" bspike guild.

its the same reason I dont have a higher HA rank, I wont ever run a 321 build

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxUberMonkeyxX

waiting it out till vod is a strategy isnt it?? im not here to argue so im asking if it is considered a strategy and th reason why i think that we got something going is EVEN if we are using a "gimmick" build i mean come on this late into the season and were still top 100 is something its not the greatest thing but it should mean something, if blood spike was so easy to run then how come not more guilds that want champion points running it to farm? which is what some of you guys said that it is relatively easy to go down rank with blood spike if so then why is there only 2 bspike guilds out in the top 100?

Some people want to play by using skill, not by running b spike in gvg and farming champ points.

Lews · Oct 05, 2006, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Okay, some comments here.

I am in DeeR.

Not trying to brag here, but we are the guild who brought OG spike to light ( the most of any other guild ) with our success with it. Most people ran SS/VG still, until we started holding.

Now i like it, it's fun and its good for a laugh if you kill a whole vimway on the alter at once.

I ran it in a pugvg guild in the fun season, we got rank 61 with it and I got 7 champ points.

I also like your name, its got a sense of humor with it.

Also, my guildmate marauder plays with you alot, says you are cool guys. Coming from him that doesnt mean much though

Anyways, my point is: people who say see you in the ladder, etc, are usually good guilds or at least high ranked ( top 20)

you might want to take that into consideration next time you talk here

Bspike isn't hard in GvG, don't pretend it is

See you in the ladder!

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

btw, if anyone wants to puggvg for champ points with o gaze spike, invite me, I'm not one of those people that I mentioned, I'm true slut for the title.

Patrograd · Oct 05, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

I'm not saying balanced is easy. But you make it sound like it's on this whole other level. It's really not. There are crappy spike teams, and crappy balanced teams, there are good balanced and good spike teams. Why isn't every spike guild in the top20? You sure seem to think it's pretty damn easy.

Well I was genuinely trying to help you and give you some serious advice. I wasted six months running spike, because during that time rank and rating was all that mattered to me. I spent all this time kidding myself that I was a top 100 player because, well, I was in the top 100. In reality, the caller in the team was a top 100 player, as he has subsequently gone on to show through the rest of his GW career. I dont think there is one single other player from that team currently playing top 100, and from discussions with many other people on this subject this is very much the norm on the breakup of a spike guild.

I learnt more about simple game mechanics running various balanced and pressure builds for a month after leaving than I had done in those six months of spiking. If I hadn't wasted all that time running builds that took away my need to think and act as an individual and a team member, and had spent that time instead running a balanced or pressure build then I would now be a considerably better player. It was fun to run spike, nice to have your guild name recognised, nice to beat big and famous guilds, nice to be on page one or two of the ladder, it was really, really fun. But you have to appreciate that unless you are the caller, it isnt your rank. Enjoy it while you can and hope your caller doesnt find something else to do or doesn't realise that he is carrying seven people to a rank they dont deserve, because once he does, its over.

It isnt easy to run spike to the top 50, but this is because there aren't that many spike callers with the game knowledge to get their team there, becasue most of the people with this level of ability would prefer to run balanced builds. So when one spike team beats another, what is actually happening is that one caller beats the other.

You say the caller only tells you when to use two of your skills right? Well, actually thats not true is it? If you are spiking every 10 seconds, and each spike takes six seconds to complete (from start of countdown to finish of cast), then there is a four second window before the next spike for you to use the other 6 skills on your bar. So by default, the caller is telling when to use those skills (ie, not during the spike). In ranger spike for example, all you had to remember to do between spikes was whirling or read the winds or whatever, and the only time you could use those skills was when there wasnt a spike gong on. If the caller moves to a new position, so do you.

When you play spike, and a particular player on the other team is giving you issues, you just make him the next target and hope to solve the problem through insta-killing him. Now put yourself into a pressure build. The right character on your team has to identify the problem, identify the best skill on his bar to solve the problem, and use that skill at the right time, and he needs to do this repeatedly until the pressure has properly bitten and the other team collapses. This might take 20 minutes or more in an even fight, All the time he has to watch his positioning, he has to take care of the other roles he might fill in the team, he has to watch enemy movements but he STILL has to use the right skill at the right time on the target causing the issue for his team or they lose. He might even have three or four such targets to cycle through. No one is telling him what to do, or when to do it, he just has to know. No-one tells him where to be or when to be there, he just has to know.

As a result, you cant hide sub standard players on a balanced team, they stand out like a sore thumb, even in the kind of simple adrenal spike build you seem to believe is all that balanced represents. However, you can hide sub standard players in a spike team. This is just a simple fact.

If I persuaded the guy who used to call spike for me to spend this weekend playing with us running spike then I'll tell you what, we'd be top 100 by Monday. What would be the point though?

[edit]

Just as aside to this, further evidence if you like that you cant hide sub standard players into balanced teams

On Saturday we were rank 180. Still a pretty scrubby rank, but OK considering we had spent the season with only five players really playing that often, guesting in the others. Then we have gone through a recruitment cycle, and its OK to do this from main because its the fun season and we have guested ins ome triallists who just didnt make it, who couldn't operate in a balanced build becasue they didnt have the skills. Just by subbing out two players and guesting triallists in various spots around the team we lose more than 100 points and 400 places in a week. Even those that were god enough, well it takes time to build up key partnerships (like the 2 warriors or the 2 monks) and so there is some rank and rating depression caused by that which can only be solved by time spent playing together. This is what the fun season is for, preparation for the coming competitive ladder.

When I used to run ranger spike we could literally put anyone into those non-caller spiker slots, give them 5 minutes on the isles of the nameless spiking dummies to get into the rhythm and go with little or no noticeable impact on the team

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

When you play spike, and a particular player on the other team is giving you issues, you just make him the next target and hope to solve the problem through insta-killing him. Now put yourself into a pressure build. The right character on your team has to identify the problem, identify the best skill on his bar to solve the problem, and use that skill at the right time, and he needs to do this repeatedly until the pressure has properly bitten and the other team collapses. This might take 20 minutes or more in an even fight, All the time he has to watch his positioning, he has to take care of the other roles he might fill in the team, he has to watch enemy movements but he STILL has to use the right skill at the right time on the target causing the issue for his team or they lose. He might even have three or four such targets to cycle through. No one is telling him what to do, or when to do it, he just has to know. No-one tells him where to be or when to be there, he just has to know.

well put patro.

This is why a good mesmer or a good monk is going to be a great player overall.

Patrograd · Oct 05, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppet87

A new group of guys looking to get learn and get ahead.

If you decide to run into a brick wall and continue to do so without learning, thats on you.

.

Well, I dont think anyone has a problem with that, well some people might, but most will understand that if you are new to GvG this is a common way of achieving a quick high rank so that you test yourself against better teams. Of course, if you were serious about that, then when you reached the top 100 you would switch to balanced, so that you actually learned something useful from your experiences of playing top sides. There are plenty of top sides who will farm the ladder until they hit the rank they want, then switch to their proper build for holding that rank.

Just some general comments though

Your rank is so high partly because with that build you can play alot of very quick games. More than 200 this season? When you switch to balanced you will find that halved. To put this into context, you have a 60% win percentage, and 1.3 points per game. If you accept that running balanced you will play half as many games, suddenly your rank is 250ish based on this kind of win percentage and PPG

Our smurf, currently rank 283, has a 64% win percentage and 2.86PPG from 44 games. Thats a PPG of more than twice yours. Not brilliant (well, its a smurf), but still, something to remember when you are making claims about top 30 potential

I am assuming your home map is one that suits your build, so Burning? Again, this is your build linked with your map earning you wins in the fights that pick up big points. Again, nothing wrong with that, but appreciate this is an inflationary aspect in your rank and PPG, such as it is.

Lastly, I would say that as a team you would have been that much further along with your development had you just switched to balanced as soon as you realised that was what you needed to do in order to improve. The longer you perservere with this kind of build, the more you will rely on this kind of crutch to keep you up. I think that pretty much every experienced player on this board who has been down this route themselves will advise you, if you really want to get better to change now, and give yourself the rest of this season and the ladder lock to get the basics of balanced down, because to be brutally honest, if you can only win 60% of your games even when you stack all the cards in your favour, then the sooner you get off this the better.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 05, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Team IQ historic ladder ftw! There are ways to look for it. hard to pin down though, since most spike guilds fall apart.

:I respect DeeR as players, but you can flame the other guilds all you want.

A spikes a spikes a spike.

No difference in TARD or DeeR. One just counts to three smarter.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

66% win percentage here, rank 140 on the ladder atm. 30-15. Every single game we play goes to VOD, simply because our build is a fairly defensive adrenospike. (two e/mos with dual aegises and heal parties, boon/blight, blackout mesmer).

Also, according to Muppet, my guild is a bunch of tactical geniuses, because we just split and raped your guild lord.

romO · Oct 05, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I'm not going to discriminate against different kinds of spikes or different guilds here. Honestly, I don't see the difference. I am just going to quote one thing for the most absolute truth that this thread could ever possibly see. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of humanity can sleep soundly tonight just knowing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

So run spike to your hearts content. Youll get a good rank on the ladder and might just get a silver cape. I wont complain a bit - Just so long as I know that you know that we know just how bad you really are.

*starts up the slow clap*

Clap.......... clap......... clap........ clap....... clap...... clap..... clap.... clap... clap.. clap. clapclapclapclapclapclap WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

XxUberMonkeyxX · Oct 06, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppet87

Firstly I am a member of [TARD] (Twisted Complex) and I joined them two or three days ago. I have played with some of they're members in TA running ballanced just to get an idea of where theyre level of understanding is. Ive got to say its not that bad considering the allagations against them that they would fail at running anything else but Bspike.

The main thing that bugs me is that people take it so personaly whenever they loose against a build like this in GvG(i.e. [cow] kicking Japan Hoki in the middle of GvG because they're build had only one counter, infuse, which would only suffice for so long.).

My view is pretty neutral on this subject, although I do believe, for these guys, running Bspike for one season and getting some experience vs. top guilds is a great learning experience. New guilds have to start somewhere and I say if your successful at Bspike to get your foot into the door, by all means run it. One season is acceptable. Two, three, or more is not(in my opinion) simply because you are not improving or moving forward to better yourself (and as a guild) to achieve a higher goal to becoming (a) better player(s).

I have an abundant amount of top30 guild experience and alot of knowledge to offer. What I dont understand about half of these posts is that they are not pro-active in the sense that when Bspike is mentioned people would rather whine and take a vass amount of time to explain why it dosent require any skill versus giving advice on how to move away from these types of builds in GvG and why, what the benefits of doing so would be, and simply not to be so damn critical.

I joined [TARD] because I see a group of players with top30 guild potiental, also I see the will and dedication to make it happen. Like they've said in this thread plans have been made to migrate twoards a more ballanced build in GvG. I would very much like to be a part of what they plan to do, but not what they are doing because I do side with most of you when the topic of skill arises when talking about Bspike in GvG. But honestly I take it for what it is.

A new group of guys looking to get learn and get ahead.

If you decide to run into a brick wall and continue to do so without learning, thats on you. Having said that I will say this:

Please dont take it so personaly that you get assraped by a Bspike. If half of you were as tacticaly indouded as you think you are Bspike wouldnt be as much as a problem as you make it out to be. Also, if button mashing is what you claim they only do then why is it so hard for you "non-button-mashing", non-skill duplicate, ballance advocate tactical genius's think of a way to out menouver a head-to-head build. GG.

what he said

no but seriously we already have a proven balanced build that will give some of you guys who think were running bspike a shock

and as for those who said our win-loss is around 60% thats only because mid way through the season we messed around with various builds such as obsidian spike/assasin spike and i belive NR/Tranq.

for those of you who think you dont learn anything from playing blood spike in GvG you would really be surprise. imagine a build thats not ment to split, splitting into 2 groups and succesfully winning the match.

and as muppet said we are new and this is our first season and we have learned alot by playing bspike and beating other builds by looking at how various people react under heavy spike pressure such as bspike. we understand that a GOOD balanced and i mean ANY good balanced build can beat bspike it just depends on how they play it. as for our guild hall we use the Ilse of Jade why? because we want to prove that you can be a sucessful spike team w.o having to use that fire ilse

Lews · Oct 06, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

you know isle of jade is even gayer

fenix · Oct 06, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

hehe I watched TARD today get stomped by guild after guild. I mean, if they were going to do only spike, you think they'd be good at it....

Bloodspike in GvG, although being a legitimate strategy, is very cheap. Any spike that has (in theory) 6 monks, is going to be hated. As an example, TARD's bloodspike is one of the bad ones, as what they do is camp in wards, and stay alive with multiple heal areas. Sure, its a strategy, but it's really lame.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 06, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

don't forget well of blood.

Heard rumors that one prominent spike guild attempted running balanced and brought a panic mesmer, a fire ele with no self sustainability (he was the runner) and some other random crap. Heard a guest raged after two people died back to back on the team in under 30 seconds.