Curse

XxUberMonkeyxX · Oct 03, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

how bout a bspike in GvG?? like [TARD] the question is why do people bag on us so much for using it in GvG when its a build jsut like any other build made to win... im part of [TARD] btw i play 1 of the E/Mos Il Dark Templar Il

Patrograd · Oct 03, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I dont know why people rant at farming builds. I guess they are just angry at losing. personally, when I used to run such builds I used to love people calling us noobs after we stomped them. Sometimes noobs>scrubs I guess.

What I would say though is that if you do run this kind of build you should be aware that your rank is elevated somewhat above its true level (your build is beating poor teams, rather than your skill as players beating good players as it would be if you ran balanced or pressure at a similar rank) and that if you want to improve as players you should be looking very hard at how opponents counter you successfully. Take the exposure to better teams that your higher rank gives you and make sure you learn from it, and dont make the mistake that many farming build players make and believe that they are as good as their rank.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 03, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Most builds I've met that run exclusively spike can't really run anything else effectively, which is where a lot of the hate comes from. Going in with spike is winning with your build rather than your skill as players - you're relying on the opponent not carrying certain counters in their build, rather than outplaying them. This makes spike builds very effective in ladder farming, and there is a lot of rage over the fact that 'unskilled' guilds can hold top 20 spots just by running spike on burning isle. It kind of makes the ladder a joke.

Nothing really unethical or 'cheap' about it and I find it amusing when people rage at us for running a farming build too. However, Patrograd is correct that you're not going to learn very much running spike, and that you'll probably become better players with another type of build.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 03, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Most builds I've met that run exclusively spike can't really run anything else effectively, which is where a lot of the hate comes from. Going in with spike is winning with your build rather than your skill as players - you're relying on the opponent not carrying certain counters in their build, rather than outplaying them. This makes spike builds very effective in ladder farming, and there is a lot of rage over the fact that 'unskilled' guilds can hold top 20 spots just by running spike on burning isle. It kind of makes the ladder a joke.

Nothing really unethical or 'cheap' about it and I find it amusing when people rage at us for running a farming build too. However, Patrograd is correct that you're not going to learn very much running spike, and that you'll probably become better players with another type of build.

qft.

Also, of COURSE the ladder is a joke. The Playoffs is what counts for capes and what not. HOWEVER, thanks to champ points blood spike and what not is effective simply for farming champ points. Make a smurf or a pug gvg, get a b spike together, repeat until you have 25. Feel bad about yourself.

JR · Oct 03, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I dont know why people rant at farming builds. I guess they are just angry at losing. personally, when I used to run such builds I used to love people calling us noobs after we stomped them. Sometimes noobs>scrubs I guess.

I rant about them quite simply because I am a competitive player that doesn't like losing. Losing to a guild like Te last night was something I could handle, simply being outplayed is going to happen and I accept that. Losing to a Bloodspike because they chose Burning Isle and we didn't have the tools to beat them 8 vs 8 annoys the hell out of me, because losing rating to what is basicly you taking paper and them taking scissors is screwed. I accept that it is our fault for not taking in a build with the tools to beat it, but then the very rare loss to Blood Spike (only one this season I think?) doesn't really make it worthwhile doing so. Not that it makes it any less annoying.

My main gripe with the build it's self is how it is essentially a scrub build. You are not getting better as a player by playing it, and it is not a build that is going to let you beat top teams most of the time. You run it because it gives you easy wins 80% of the time, and because you are too lazy/unskilled to run something that takes more coordination than 3 2 1 press buttons. You can get a top 16 ladder spot with it easily, but really what point is there? You are going to suck in any kind of play off/tournament situation, and everyone will know exactly how you earnt that shiny silver cape.

I have guested for a fairly notorious top 20 spike guild, and to be honest I was disgusted at how unskilled they were. They made seriously dumb strategic calls, and had no more coordination other than picking a target and counting down. It bugs me that guilds like this can beat much better teams purely through build alone, but that really can't be helped. NUKE has played them twice on our home map, and beaten them both times because they simply can't handle anything but a straight 8 vs 8 very well. The simple fact is that this guild is bad. Once their spike stops working or they get bored of running it, they will try and fail to run other things. Their rating will tank when they realise they suck, and they will probably end up disbanding.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 03, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The simple fact is that this guild is bad. Once their spike stops working or they get bored of running it, they will try and fail to run other things. Their rating will tank when they realise they suck, and they will probably end up disbanding.

too true. Though It would be HILARIOUS to see someone try to defend the guild, their build, or its players.

Wilhelm · Oct 03, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Blood spike is really just a gimimck build, and gimmick builds really hold their place in hero's ascent. Although I'm only moderatly involved with GvG, I do understand you run balanced builds, as that the GvG arena is really the only place where your playing ablity determines the outcome, not the type of build your running.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 03, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Not true. GVG is everybit as bad as HA when it comes to gimmick builds. I've seen Iway in GVG, B spike in gvg, touch rangers in GVG (and depending on who you are, the omnipresent smite). Would Love to see a smite ball in GVG, because that would be an easy win.

It would be nice if people relied on individual skill to win matches instead of cheap gimmicks (omg spirit spamming in GVG!) but unfortunately, that's not the case. If it were, people would have a harder time climbing the ladder.

My guild runs dual ele balanced and I continue to improve as a player because of it. Our losses are chalked up to crappy players (we're a young guild and testing a lot of people) but when we get a big win it feels really good. That's GVG in an ideal world, instead of spikes and spirits and so on.

JR · Oct 03, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Not true. GVG is everybit as bad as HA when it comes to gimmick builds. I've seen Iway in GVG, B spike in gvg, touch rangers in GVG (and depending on who you are, the omnipresent smite).

I honestly don't know how you can put GvG in even anything close to the same ballpark as HA, when it comes to gimmicks. The simple fact is that gimmicks fail in terribly GvG, with the recent trend of Bloodspike being only moderately succesful. HA is built in a way that encourages gimmicks, GvG is not.

Minus Sign · Oct 03, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I have guested for a fairly notorious top 20 spike guild...

Shame on you JR-! My illusions are shattered

JK. Seriously though guys GvG may not have the rampant IWAYism of HA but it does have its share of gimicks. Has it been so long since "everyone" was thumping for rank?

Patrograd · Oct 03, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I have guested for a fairly notorious top 20 spike guild, and to be honest I was disgusted at how unskilled they were. .

I agree with your general comments.

I wonder if this is the same high ranked spike team that we played last night? Giving them their due they did one or two things quite cleverly (repairing our cata immediately we started to fall back for instance making split that much harder), and yet on the occasions where we could isolate individual players away from their wards and spike unit i was very surprised at how poor they were at basic issues - a monk that ran into our gank squad instead of away from it and that died in about 2 hits, and an ele that let us into their base after they went to great pains to kill our thief and then stood and fought three players instead of retreating into his Lord area. Rank 24 I think they were? Wow.

As I commented on our forums if it was me running that team I would be looking hard at those kind of errors and wondering how the hell I would cope if my build ever got nerfed and we had to run balanced or pressure. Mind you, I was also angry at our own players who didn't split very well or start to handle the situation until it was too late, and I think this annoyed me alot more than either the other team's pathetic pre and post match trash talking or their overpowered uninterruptable spike

shardfenix · Oct 03, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

6 spikers or more in blood spike makes it overpowered IMO. Unpreventable damage makes it a non-infusable, nonprottable spike. It's easy to stop if you have half a brain to bring at least 1 interrupter with you. Also, bloodspike can't split for its ass. The only map blodspike should beat you on is burning isle.

JR · Oct 03, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

6 spikers or more in blood spike makes it overpowered IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

It's easy to stop if you have half a brain to bring at least 1 interrupter with you. Also, bloodspike can't split for its ass. The only map blodspike should beat you on is burning isle.

What..?

Yichi · Oct 03, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I think he was talking about having the interrupter stay on the guy with enfeebling blood, making the OG part of the spike much less effective.

Most spike builds cant split for anything. We have beaten a few different spike builds, just by splitting. and even if they can split, they do shit for damage. The only spike build ive seen have success splitting is sb/ri. i have never seen a ranger, blood, or obs flame spike split successfully.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 03, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I honestly don't know how you can put GvG in even anything close to the same ballpark as HA, when it comes to gimmicks. The simple fact is that gimmicks fail in terribly GvG, with the recent trend of Bloodspike being only moderately succesful. HA is built in a way that encourages gimmicks, GvG is not.

It depends on what your definition of 'fail' is. If it's to get to top 16 and do really well in the playoffs, it fails. If it's to farm champ points, be on observer mode, etc, then it is, as they say, teh win.

Choking gas rangers: new gvg meta?

Legendary Shiz · Oct 03, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

tbh spikes should and do get looked down upon. Especially in high ranked gvg. If you rspike your way to top 50, congrats. You can count to 3. If you balance, or gank your way to top 50 congrats you actually have skill.

Some spikes work in gvg, but that doesn't mean you're a good player. Just means you know how to follow a call. IMO spikes should be left for HA.

Stealth Rider · Oct 03, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

even some of the more "ok" gimmicks actually take *some* skill to use effectively (Ranger pressure, non-thumper smite, NR/tranq even). Pure spike is just 3...2...1...

Not to mention, shutting down one character in a Ranger pressure build wont normally destroy it. DShutting down the caller in a spike build will totally remove any chance of losing.

As an example, last night AI fought a guild running a caster spike with an Earthshaker Warrior, using Deaths Charge and Way of the Fox. I was playing onfield ele with BFlash. Instantly i was able to recognize their caller was the Warrior (using WoTF or Deaths Charge on *every* spike gave it away...) and I timed my BFlashes to stop his Earthshaker. After that, save from a few misstimed Flashes and some decent shutdown on their part, they did not kill once.

If a build can be totally shut down by one person under constant pressure, the build will not work. (Smite is an exception, because while you do have only one monk to shut down, AoE makes doing that much harder.) As such, spikes are ftl.

comonnow · Oct 03, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I agree bspike is extremely annoying. I used to be in a guild with one of the guys from [TARD] and i can honestly say, he is one of the least skilled players in the game. We asked him to play with us in a balanced group once, he said all he could play was ranger, so ofc we say play a crip shot. He didnt have Crip Shot unlocked.

Now he has more champ points than me and thinks he is more skilled, when in fact he sux at pvp if it doesnt involve spiking. Quite sad and needless to say we dont get along so well anymore.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 03, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Most spike builds cant split for anything. We have beaten a few different spike builds, just by splitting. and even if they can split, they do shit for damage. The only spike build ive seen have success splitting is sb/ri. i have never seen a ranger, blood, or obs flame spike split successfully.

I think this is more players who don't know how to split. Some spike builds are actually pretty effective on the split. Ranger Spike can take all the spikers, the orders/bonder, and a monk while the ele and another monk defend the lord. An ele and monk can usually hold off gank teams while the spikers go and win the game for you. If they split 4-4 it's pretty easy to just spike one of their teams down one by one before they even start to pressure you.

That's not to say split is a bad tactic vs spike - it does weaken them and makes their spike that much easier to interrupt. However, a good spike build (like Es's) can split well enough that splitting on them isn't an instant-win. This is compounded by the fact that a lot of spikes use Burning Isle.

I agree with everything JR said otherwise. I don't even mind pressure gimmicks (thumpers, ect) that much, because that kind of game is beaten exclusively through player skill. It can give the players running it an advantage, but if you have good movement and don't panic they're beatable without any specific build counters. With spike it's just a question of whether you brought the right tools. Some of the best teams in the world lose to spikes, just because they didn't have the right skill in their build at the time.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 03, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Most spike builds cant split for anything. We have beaten a few different spike builds, just by splitting. and even if they can split, they do shit for damage. The only spike build ive seen have success splitting is sb/ri. i have never seen a ranger, blood, or obs flame spike split successfully.

Man, that reminds me of old [rift] FC air spike. Splitting and still pulling of spikes was just amazing.