Curse

unmatchedfury · Oct 05, 2006, 11:17 AM // 11:17

the real problem i think is that their survivability is too good(due to some still imbalanced skills) and their dmg output/ shutdown(KD interrupt) is too low.

furbat · Oct 05, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

the real problem i think is that their survivability is too good(due to some still imbalanced skills) and their dmg output/ shutdown(KD interrupt) is too low.

I think thats how they are intended to be, very hard to kill while spamming blind, cripple, bleed, deepwound, and weakness to a single target in a very short amount of time. But lacking in hard counters like KD and interrupt. Also, thier dammage output isnt too low. Pious assault is +31 (with 16) +26 (12), with 4 enchants on you, you can spam it 5 times with no cool down at a total cost of 9 energy (at 12 mysticism).

Think about a dervish with {e} sandy grip, mystic regen, aura of thorns, dustcloak, pious assault, conviction, wearying assault, and plague touch.

Run up with 3 enchants running, hit aura of thorns, wearing assualt, plague touch, pious x5. Dervish = new touch ranger.

Patccmoi · Oct 05, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Interrupt is low in their primary attribute true but it's pretty easy still to go /W and bring Bull's Strike and DBlow if you want.

As for shutdown, when you can AOE blind every attack skill, or Cripple on every swing or all nearby foes every 12s, they have their own form of shutdown really. Not monk shutdown, but getting blind/crippled all the damn time makes other melee truly not functional. Even draw has a limit.

As for damage output, i don't really get why people say their damage output is low. If anything they hit for more damage than Hammer Warriors (because if you strike moving targets you crit a lot more and their crits are insane), with the difference that instead of having KDs they have mass conditions spam and AOE attacks and a lot of spammable high +damage attacks (while hammer wars are slow at charging them). I don't remember any other class able to DW in AOE every 2s either.

The reason why Dervish damage output seemed so low in the preview is because people built Dervishes to be fully self-reliable ala Tactics warrior. And you sacrifice a lot of damage to do so. They have some of the most spammable +40 damage attacks with a weapon already having huge base damage swinging in AOE by default, and they have decent 33% IAS skills (or can use those found on warriors). If you actually build one for all-out damage and let support people keep them active, i doubt you'll consider that they are low damage in the end even against only 1 target.

I'm not saying that Dervishes can replace warriors if a team isn't built for them, just like people considered for so long that Assassins are only good at ganking because they don't adapt their build to have them midfight. But they also have the ability to offer very nice support while applying pretty heavy pressure, and i expect that to show up in the end as people get some good Dervish builds out.

furbat · Oct 05, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I think a lot of the damage misconception is based on the AE enchant nerfs. The scythe line is still incredible, offering high damage spamable attacks, attacks that generate energy (lyssa's assault + ethereal aid for 8-9 energy every 15 seconds), and attacks that spam DW.

Also, with just one skill slot with either earth or wind offers much more reliable self healing than say troll ungut (mystic regen 3 regen per enchant 1/4 cast time for 20 sec) or Dwayna's Kiss (5e, up to 150 heal 3/4 cast 2 CD). Other spells like guiding hands (next 5 attacks are unblockable or evadable) or harriers grasp (attacks against moving targets cause cripple) and IAS are great as well.

The real problem with a dervish is not having enough skill slots to run enough enchants for enchant dependent abilities and have enough damaging attacks.

Patccmoi · Oct 05, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbat

The real problem with a dervish is not having enough skill slots to run enough enchants for enchant dependent abilities and have enough damaging attacks.

That's only a problem for RA...

I mean, consider a Dervish using Pious Assault with a Smite Monk on his back? He'll always have a RoF or Guardian to drop with his Pious, gaining the energy back, and he can do +31 damage every swing or so. He doesn't even need to bother with Plague Touch when doing Wearying, the monks can Draw it.

And say he uses some enchants himself, he can even fill the Heal Party role by putting some points in Wind and using Mystic Healing. He can also add something like Harrier's Grasp for enchant that will cripple any moving foe, and something like Harrier's Haste that makes you move faster.

I mean look at a build like this:

14 Scythe Mastery (11 + 2 + 1)
12 Mysticism (10 + 2)
11 Wind Prayers (10 + 1)

Avatar of X (they're like all good, depends on your team setup) or Sandy Grip (that's good with like 5 in Earth)
Heart of Fury
Wearying Strike
Pious Assault / Mystic Sweep (one is higher damage, one is instant recharge. Mystic Sweep is safer if you don't want to risk screwing up your important enchants though, but if the smite can stick on your back Pious is better)
Harrier's Haste
Harrier's Grasp
Mystic Healing / Mystic Twister
Rez Signet

And keep a Smite Monk on his back spamming RoF/Guardian and keeping JI on him, and Draw Conditions (just standard smite...).

He's in IMS, and if you get hit while moving, you're crippled and all the smite starts bashing on you. He can spam high +damage attacks and deepwound at will, with even more +damage if you're running. He has a 33% IAS enchant half the time that also put foes on fire when it ends. And on top of that, he can actually power a 'Heal Party' Mystic Healing giving 69 health to a random party member for every enchant on you (Harrier's Grasp + JI + RoF + Guardian + Heart of Fury + w/e else (Sandy Grip maybe)... you can have a monk throw a Vigorous Spirit on him or w/e, anyway you can easily have that working on 4-8 allies). You can also forget the Healing part and give him something like Mystic Twister and with all the enchants on him it gives him a 100 cold damage AREA AoE every 12s. This can actually be pretty devastating in the backline of a team.

Tell me a build like that isn't high pressure. Cripple every hit when you have a smite on your back isn't something you can just ignore, and neither is constant DW + high damage attack spam. If you hit more than one guy with your scythe, great, but even if you don't you're hurting a hell of a lot.

master_of_puppets · Oct 05, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

not to rant, I'm sure your aware that the dervrish is a good self healer.

A melee char that self-heals? And thats a good thing? Healing Hands Wammo anyone>?

BeowulfKamdas · Oct 05, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

self heals are good

almost every build i run as a warrior has healing signet nowadays.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

imagine what desecrate enchantments is going to do to this guy.

Bankai · Oct 05, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I think it will take people 2 weeks to figure out some 'good build' that's A/D, using sharpen daggers and hit massive crits.

Then, people will shift away from it and the real builds start coming.

cookiemonkie · Oct 08, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

imagine what desecrate enchantments is going to do to this guy.

Simple solution, don't have many enchantments on you. This is easily accomplished with signet of piety.

furbat · Oct 08, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Yeah that spell is going to hurt dervishes if they are running around with 4 enchants. But then again, if they are running with 4 enchants on them they probably have 12 regen going.

I think dervishes will only run enchant heavy builds if they go earth, looking at running 4 self enchants at a time. Wind doesnt seem to mesh well with heavy enchant builds. Maybe heart of fury, harriers grasp, etherial aid, and guided hands.

Speaking of etherial aid and guided hands.. do the enchantments end after the effect is gained, or do they stay with you for the duration. Im sure it works the same way as way of the fox.. but i don't play an assasin.

Symbol · Oct 09, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I don't see why you need to stack 4 enchants to be effective. Just take one good moderate recharge enchant that offers something you want (I like Harrier's Grasp myself) and cover it with some spammable enchant.

unmatchedfury · Oct 09, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Hrm i havn't tried the scythe line extensivly because going earth enchants alowed me to tank in a most imbalenced way even after the nerf.

but the dervrush shows alot of promise, monks are going to remain the best secondary for the dervrish. because of how well the derv uses enchants.

Khift · Oct 09, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeowulfKamdas

self heals are good

almost every build i run as a warrior has healing signet nowadays.

And this is because Healing Signet remains the best self heal in the game. Dervish self heals are good but nowhere near the level Healing Signet is at. Additionally, warriors are just as comfortable on a split as they are with the main team making Healing Signet justifiable as they could very well end up with half a map between themselves and their monks, but dervishes are only at home when there are alot of bodies nearby to hit with AoE, meaning they are less likely to split off and receive lesser benefits from being able to heal themselves.

Skuld · Oct 09, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Signet_of_Piety

1 sec cast, instant recharge?

Red Locust · Oct 09, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Additionally, warriors are just as comfortable on a split as they are with the main team making Healing Signet justifiable as they could very well end up with half a map between themselves and their monks, but dervishes are only at home when there are alot of bodies nearby to hit with AoE, meaning they are less likely to split off and receive lesser benefits from being able to heal themselves.

I disagree, spammable cripples/deep wounds/blinds/bleeds that don't require adrenaline are very powerful in splits, and a lot of the scythe attacks have a nice synergy with vital boon and similar self-heals. If you combine it with, say, signet of malice to keep yourself clean and dash to reach the other guy for the insta-cripple, I don't see why the dervish shouldn't be a strong split.

Patccmoi · Oct 11, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

I agree that their ability to stack conditions like crazy, through attacks AND enchants, makes them quite scary actually in split. Scythe attacks are very powerful on their own. I honestly think it's a bad misconception that people have that Dervishes are only good when they can AOE. I only see their AOE as a bonus. They have possibly higher DPS than hammer wars with an IAS and auto-attack Scythe...

As for self-heals, if you use any enchant... check Dwayna's Touch. 5/.75/2, heals up to 150 (with 3 enchants on you, this is reached with like 7-8 Wind Prayers). Signet of Piety with a spammable enchant is pretty damn awesome too. Honestly, as far as self-heal goes, Dervishes are more on par with monks than warriors. They easily outclass Healing Signet.

Khift · Oct 11, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

You guys seem to miss the point of healsig. Healing Signet is unconditional. No matter what Healing Signet will do it's job. The closest thing to that a dervish has is Natural Healing which has a longer recharge and occasionally costs alot more. Dwayna's Touch requires an enchantment on you to even function -- not always reliable. Vital Boon requires itself to end to function. It doesn't even work as a self heal in that respect.

Saying dervish self heals are better than Healing Signet is like saying Lion's Might is better than healing signet since it has a shorter cast time and roughly the same heal.

unmatchedfury · Oct 11, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

A melee char that self-heals? And thats a good thing? Healing Hands Wammo anyone>?

sigh your rather close minded arn't ya.. anyways taht how the devrish is spopposed to stay alive, by using his enchants as ammo for big heals to keep himself going.

Symbol · Oct 11, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Dwayna's Touch requires an enchantment on you to even function -- not always reliable. Vital Boon requires itself to end to function. It doesn't even work as a self heal in that respect.

Hello? It's not conditional if you can supply the enchant. And there are about five billion dervish skills that allow you to end vital boon on demand, which makes it doubly useful. First as a big heal, and second as a good cover enchant.

Quote:

Saying dervish self heals are better than Healing Signet is like saying Lion's Might is better than healing signet since it has a shorter cast time and roughly the same heal.

No, Dervish self heals ARE better. Lion's might isn't better than healsig because it can't be used out of combat and heals for less. It's a bad comparison.