Curse

Dzan · Oct 01, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

If someone can look at Wounding Strike {e} and say that Dervishes have no place, they are probably not thinking very hard.

master_of_puppets · Oct 02, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

If someone can look at Wounding Strike {e} and say that Dervishes have no place, they are probably not thinking very hard.

One skill doesnt justify an entire profession. Hm.., where have I heard that before...

And that skill is probably on the train to Nerfland anyway...

Thom Bangalter · Oct 02, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I think the dervish will make a great flagger, d/mo with aegis perhaps, or d/p with some utility (haven't looked at skills for them in that context, so I'm not sure.)

I disagree in some regards. He'll be great for getting flags to the stand, kinda, since he can use the elite forms for like 1 minute or so. However, an ele can already pop off an aegis and get a speed buff and fire heal parties during vod or if you push them into their base, so I doubt they'll replace the ele as flagger.

clonmac · Oct 02, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually the counter to Boon Signet is Boon Signet sucking. You just beat on things and they die because their Monk bar sucks.

Peace,
-CxE

lol true, but it sucks because you need to cast it continually. If the skill had a 15 second recharge and you got 6 energy back for each enchantment on an ally (maximum 18), then it would be a lot better in builds with a lot of enchantments because you don't need to spam it.

Back on topic, I don't see that Dervish Healing build becoming popular because, like Boon Signet, you rely on just that one spammable skill to keep the build as a viable healer. If that skill gets disabled, you are screwed.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

lol true, but it sucks because you need to cast it continually. If the skill had a 15 second recharge and you got 6 energy back for each enchantment on an ally (maximum 18), then it would be a lot better in builds with a lot of enchantments because you don't need to spam it.

I assume by 'better' you mean 'hideously overpowered', right?

clonmac · Oct 02, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I assume by 'better' you mean 'hideously overpowered', right?

Hey, better is better right? haha, I guess we can compromise and go with 4 energy per enchantment (maximum 12). That would yield about the same as an MoR.

I guess my point was that Boon Signet sucks because you need to cast it so frequently to yield decent energy income, not that the energy per second it can give is poor.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Increasing the energy gain might help, but I think messing with the heal would be better. Then it becomes an elite sig of devotion that you can figure into your healing cycle to constantly get more energy in an enchant-heavy build. We're off-topic here though.

Dzan · Oct 02, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

One skill doesnt justify an entire profession. Hm.., where have I heard that before...

And that skill is probably on the train to Nerfland anyway...

I doubt it will define the profession the same way that Ritual Lord did. In GVG and TA,I think it will definitely be the key elite, but not necesarily in other places where other elites will be very useful; in contrast Ritualists weren't played in environments where Ritual Lord was weak.

As far as it being nerfed, that is anyone's guess, but I would very much doubt they would nerf it significantly. There is a very fine line between it and Dismember. If you nerf it too much, its weaker than Dismember and thus not worth being an elite.

cookiemonkie · Oct 03, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

lol true, but it sucks because you need to cast it continually. If the skill had a 15 second recharge and you got 6 energy back for each enchantment on an ally (maximum 18), then it would be a lot better in builds with a lot of enchantments because you don't need to spam it.

Back on topic, I don't see that Dervish Healing build becoming popular because, like Boon Signet, you rely on just that one spammable skill to keep the build as a viable healer. If that skill gets disabled, you are screwed.

Who says you have to depend on one skill to heal, throw in Gift of health in there, prot spells and kite.

clonmac · Oct 03, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

Who says you have to depend on one skill to heal, throw in Gift of health in there, prot spells and kite.

I wasn't saying that. I was talking about the Dervish build that was posted here. In which case it isn't spec'd in Healing prayers so GoH is out of the equation.

And by "viable healer", I didn't mean no good healing skills other than one. Sure, you can throw whatever you want in there. By viable healer I meant not having to rely on using a signet every few seconds for decent energy income.

The same can be said of the Dervish healer.

master_of_puppets · Oct 03, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I doubt it will define the profession the same way that Ritual Lord did. In GVG and TA,I think it will definitely be the key elite, but not necesarily in other places where other elites will be very useful; in contrast Ritualists weren't played in environments where Ritual Lord was weak.

As far as it being nerfed, that is anyone's guess, but I would very much doubt they would nerf it significantly. There is a very fine line between it and Dismember. If you nerf it too much, its weaker than Dismember and thus not worth being an elite.

I guess you're right about Ritual Lord, but I think its Anet fault for not giving the Rit more ... uses and variety. The ONLY thing they can do in PvP is spirit spam and no other elites (or skills for that matter) help do that better than Rit Lord. About Wounding Strike, I think people will be more into the Forms cuz its all like "Omg thats so cool you turn into something else, 1337, this game needs more of this kind of crap blah blah blah"

Ensign · Oct 03, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

The problem with Boon Signet is the raw amount of time that you have to spend casting the thing for what ends up being very inconsistent emanagement. You don't want to spen 1.75 seconds all the time casting just for a small energy gain. Boon Signet basically needs to heal for a decent amount to top people off with (around 60ish at 15 spec, i think), and incidentally give you energy from the enchantments on the people you heal. Having this time intensive skill that requires you to have a lot of buffs on someone to be effective just isn't an attractive elite.

On the Dervish, spammable Deep Wound (and some other money conditions, like blind and cripple) is the one thing this class does very well. The damage is ok, and he's really fragile, but he can kick out a lot of dangerous conditions onto a target. While I really don't know how they'll end up looking in PvP, if they're competitive I'd bet on them being AoE condition spammers.

Peace,
-CxE

cookiemonkie · Oct 04, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

I wasn't saying that. I was talking about the Dervish build that was posted here. In which case it isn't spec'd in Healing prayers so GoH is out of the equation.

And by "viable healer", I didn't mean no good healing skills other than one. Sure, you can throw whatever you want in there. By viable healer I meant not having to rely on using a signet every few seconds for decent energy income.

The same can be said of the Dervish healer.

The signet heals just like signet of devotion does for about the same amount, you just have to get the bonus of energy on-top of it unlike boon signet which requires you use it every few seconds just to manage energy. The activation time of Signet of Piety is 1 second, enchantment cast before use of it is 1/4 second. I take it you've never played the build during the 1st or 2nd preview event.

Anyways by that logic, the Mo/A BL monks aren't viable healers since they rely on a 2 second cast of Signet every time it cycles to save energy.

clonmac · Oct 04, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

The signet heals just like signet of devotion does for about the same amount, you just have to get the bonus of energy on-top of it unlike boon signet which requires you use it every few seconds just to manage energy. The activation time of Signet of Piety is 1 second, enchantment cast before use of it is 1/4 second. I take it you've never played the build during the 1st or 2nd preview event.

Anyways by that logic, the Mo/A BL monks aren't viable healers since they rely on a 2 second cast of Signet every time it cycles to save energy.

Predictability as a monk is a very bad thing to have. If the enemy knows that you have to use a specific skill in order to heal, then they can react to it even before you use it. Mo/A, while they use Signet of Devotion to heal teammates and conserve energy, they don't completely depend on it. If it gets interrupted, they are still able to heal their team without it, they will just have to dip into their energy pool. In dire situations, that is something they are willing to do...and more importantly, something they are able to do.

Back onto the Dervish, unlike the Mo/A who uses SoD just as a means to conserve energy, the Dervish relies on Signet of Piety not only for energy, but also to heal his team. Without that skill, he is close to worthless. All he has is an Imbue Health that has a 10 second recharge. Against a heavy pressure team, he'll save one person and then is left with some Protection enchantments that won't heal for anything without Divine Favor.

As I said, it isn't that it is a bad build (and to answer your question, yes I did use it during the preview events), it works great in the arenas. But, Signet of Piety just begs to be interrupted/disabled.

If this were to ever go to GvG grounds as it is, then teams would have a D-Shot ranger or knockdown warrior on it faster than you can say 'Kill Me'. The bad part about the signet is that it doesn't even need to get Distracted to send it into a 20 second recharge. All it takes is a simple interruption by whatever means.

Patccmoi · Oct 04, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Personally i think Dervishes actually have damn good pressure with their condition spam... and just basic Scythe damage.

The problem is that nearly every Dervish i saw in the preview was build like a Tactics Warrior, sacrificing their damage to tank.

Scythe damage is actually incredibly high on crits, and if you have a move speed stance (or enchant so you can use IAS, cause Dervish got those... look at Featherfoot Grace which gives 25% move speed and lower condition duration. You can go for Whirling Charge too, or Heart of Fury which is an ENCHANT giving 33% IAS) it's easy to score crits regularly. A normal crit with no bonus is 80 damage on 60AL.

Then you have things like Mystic Sweep, which is a very spammable (4s recharge) +40 damage swing (easy to have 4 enchants on with some support, for example a Smite Monk which can also give you something like JI. And then you'd likely crit that for around 130-140 damage). Wearying Strike with any condition removal is one of the best damn skill in the game (if anything, i consider that overpowered). Deep Wound someone and Plague Touch Weakness to cover it every 2s? Or Sig of Malice if you don't want to use energy, and it activates faster. You can also use Malicious Strike from /A which is a sure crit. Only +5 damage, but sure crit means a lot of damage already and it's 5E/6s recharge.

Sandy Grip is another skill that seemed close to impossible to handle without a full enchant removal skill (like Gaze of Contempt, etc.). Basically every attack skill the Dervish does is a Blinding Flash in AOE, and it lasts longer than its recharge (which is 20s, and 5E to activate... basically, good luck getting rid of it, ofc the Dervish will cover it with 2-3 others). With all the 2-4s recharge attack skills, it's easy to keep a pack of warriors totally useless. And you'll also actually do quite good damage with earth scythe on them. I know we faced a Sandy Grip Dervish in TA and our warrior never got blind off him even with Draw Conditions. And you only need like 4-5 points in Earth to actually have a good effect out of this elite. Any attacking class could use that... for example an Assassin with Unseen Fury.

Dervish has huge potential imo, in PvP too. They can do very high mass pressure with mass condition and overall very big damage. The thing is, if you want a Dervish doing pressure, you can't give him 3 enchants to tank and 2 self heals and expect to actually kill someone after that, it's the equivalent of a tactics stance warrior. In the preview weekend, it's pretty much all i saw though.

I think Dervishes will mostly be able to pressure when they have team support and they can tank well without having to do it themselves. With a smite monk on their back for example, they'll gain very steady energy/health gain with all the enchants ending, and can get some attack buffs like Judge's Insight at the same time. And then spam these high damage scythe attacks while in IAS and IMS. They can even fill other team roles too. For example, say the Dervish keeps 2-3 enchants on himself and a monk keeps 3-4 more on his back, Dervish has access to a 5/1/2 heal party (that actually heals more than heal party).

And their ability to spam conditions insanely to everyone around them isn't to be neglected either. I'm really looking forward to include them in team builds (that will be designed with the fact that you use Dervishes and not warriors in mind!)

Nightwish · Oct 04, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

But their AOE is reduced to adjacent since last preview, the smallest radius possible. 20s recharge on the enchants with minimal radius of effect?

Ensign · Oct 04, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

The PBAoEs are unplayable now. You're looking to Scythe people down now. If you can get multiple hits in with each attack, the character is pretty strong. If you can't, he's a pile of crap.

Pretty simple, really.

Peace,
-CxE

unmatchedfury · Oct 05, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The problem with Boon Signet is the raw amount of time that you have to spend casting the thing for what ends up being very inconsistent emanagement. You don't want to spen 1.75 seconds all the time casting just for a small energy gain. Boon Signet basically needs to heal for a decent amount to top people off with (around 60ish at 15 spec, i think), and incidentally give you energy from the enchantments on the people you heal. Having this time intensive skill that requires you to have a lot of buffs on someone to be effective just isn't an attractive elite.

On the Dervish, spammable Deep Wound (and some other money conditions, like blind and cripple) is the one thing this class does very well. The damage is ok, and he's really fragile, but he can kick out a lot of dangerous conditions onto a target. While I really don't know how they'll end up looking in PvP, if they're competitive I'd bet on them being AoE condition spammers.

Peace,
-CxE

much agreed, teh dervrish rolls out conditions like a non-interuptabel trapper.

and " really fragile" ? teh dervrish is far from fragile. its has more self heals than any otehr class. and a staple + armor skill,conviction

I've tanked 3 peopel with ease in AB and RA while testing new builds, after the nerf of CoP..

not to rant, I'm sure your aware that the dervrish is a good self healer.

Red Locust · Oct 05, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Dervishes are pretty awesome at overpowering single monks with conditions, provided you don't have access to strong condition removal ala draw/martyr/cautery sig/restore condition. That's pretty much all of what they can do, as the other lines got nerfed to high hell. I suppose you can also tank in PvE using the various defensive skills he's got.

furbat · Oct 05, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I think what people are missing is how effective dervishes will be at shuting down players with conditions. While they might lack spike damage, imagine using a run speed buff with harriers grasp on a teams monk, or using AE blind to keep a warrior train shut down.

They will do decent damage, and have survivability but not to the degree of a warrior.. but they will be key in a team.