Curse

chefung · Jun 03, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I am wondering if the GvG monk use the sup runes/major runes for attribute boost while having the HP penalty. For me, I am using +30HP mod + sup runes = 485 HP. Someone told me should make as much HP as possible like 45HP from offhand, no sup, so it has 575 HP.

What do you all think?

TheOneMephisto · Jun 03, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Generally a boon-prot will use a sup DF rune, with a minor for switching off.

JR · Jun 03, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

On a PvE monk, run both and switch as neccasary. Against spike or when suffering from DP switch to a Minor.

On a PvP monk take a Minor rune, or you can take a Superior and then buy a seperate minor to add over as neccasary, but it's not very practical.

In general though; run a minor.

chefung · Jun 04, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Thanks you two. How about other casters? ( E/N/Me/Rt )

For them , it seems power is better than health...but their armor make them vulnerable to attack too

Worf · Jun 04, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Mesmers should take minor. For example Esurge and Eburn make enemy lose 8 energy in attribute levels 13-16.. FC superior is only thing what would be useful (FC Spike).

Elementalist also don't have a huge difference between attributes 14-16, but if you need more spike damage, superior is useful.

For Necros minors, only a litlle difference (like in how much hex lasts or few points more damage).

I Haven't palyed Ritualist much, so I'll not say anything about them.

And, if you need to share your attributes much, superior would help.

latbec · Jun 04, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Unless you go against a spike team targeting your damage dealers first, chances are that as a monk, you will be the primary target. Putting in a superior rune removing 75 health is helping the opponent in killing you imo. If you look at the difference between 14 and 16 in each attributes, do you see any single spell that will heal for +75 if you wear a superior?

Greedy Gus · Jun 04, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

You can put a sup rune on whoever you want, it's not that big of a deal if you have other ways to deal with spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latbec

If you look at the difference between 14 and 16 in each attributes, do you see any single spell that will heal for +75 if you wear a superior?

That's not really the issue with most builds. Many boon prot builds already give up some divine points to boost other attributes while still maintaining a good 14 or 15 in DF. So now you're talking about dropping down into the 12 or 13 ranges, quite low. Sup runes aren't just about pushing some attribute to max, they're also quite useful in affording you a lot more attribute points to be flexible if you don't need to spend 16, 20 points on those final levels on an important attribute.

As long as you can work with a sup rune (and in my mind, everyone can), why not take the boost to your efficiency in what you're doing? Sure your mesmer can hit 14 dom without a sup (or dual majors now), but it costs about 3-8 levels of fast casting, inspiration, illusion, etc.. Did you really need 590 life instead of 515?

JR · Jun 04, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

You can put a sup rune on whoever you want, it's not that big of a deal if you have other ways to deal with spikes.

That's not really the issue with most builds. Many boon prot builds already give up some divine points to boost other attributes while still maintaining a good 14 or 15 in DF. So now you're talking about dropping down into the 12 or 13 ranges, quite low. Sup runes aren't just about pushing some attribute to max, they're also quite useful in affording you a lot more attribute points to be flexible if you don't need to spend 16, 20 points on those final levels on an important attribute.

As long as you can work with a sup rune (and in my mind, everyone can), why not take the boost to your efficiency in what you're doing? Sure your mesmer can hit 14 dom without a sup (or dual majors now), but it costs about 3-8 levels of fast casting, inspiration, illusion, etc.. Did you really need 590 life instead of 515?

Whilst I agree it is generally better to have a Sup, I think that it is very important to be able to swap. Without that you are just going to be rocked again and again if you get DP; if you can switch out and maintain a fairly usefull health level then it is less of a deal.

ease · Jun 04, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

The only superior rune you should have as a caster in gvg is sup vigor. The health lost is never worth the extra damge or healing that you get. however if you have a pve monk in gvg, then by all means cast boon with your +4 divine favor scalp at the beginning of the match. Then immediately swap back to your +2 scalp. You get some additional healing that way with no penalty.
There are those that will argue with this view. All you have to do is observe some gvg's and ask the top players who are watching their matches. They will tell you the same thing.

Ease

JR · Jun 04, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ease

The only superior rune you should have as a caster in gvg is sup vigor. The health lost is never worth the extra damge or healing that you get. however if you have a pve monk in gvg, then by all means cast boon with your +4 divine favor scalp at the beginning of the match. Then immediately swap back to your +2 scalp. You get some additional healing that way with no penalty.
There are those that will argue with this view. All you have to do is observe some gvg's and ask the top players who are watching their matches. They will tell you the same thing.

Ease

Except for the fact that any decent monk player will also know that they will repeatedly get their enchantments stripped in most GvGs, making casting early with a sup and then changing largely pointless.

dgb · Jun 05, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ease

The only superior rune you should have as a caster in gvg is sup vigor. The health lost is never worth the extra damge or healing that you get. however if you have a pve monk in gvg, then by all means cast boon with your +4 divine favor scalp at the beginning of the match. Then immediately swap back to your +2 scalp. You get some additional healing that way with no penalty.
There are those that will argue with this view. All you have to do is observe some gvg's and ask the top players who are watching their matches. They will tell you the same thing.

Ease

Disagree, if you're on a PvE character I'd run superior at 0 and 15 DP, then swap to a minor. Leave your inventory up and learn to doubleclick that scalp design as soon as you see warriors coming at you.

Greedy Gus · Jun 05, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ease

The only superior rune you should have as a caster in gvg is sup vigor. The health lost is never worth the extra damge or healing that you get. however if you have a pve monk in gvg, then by all means cast boon with your +4 divine favor scalp at the beginning of the match. Then immediately swap back to your +2 scalp. You get some additional healing that way with no penalty.
There are those that will argue with this view. All you have to do is observe some gvg's and ask the top players who are watching their matches. They will tell you the same thing.

Ease

This is the type of post I really can't stand, and I feel that it has no business in a real discussion. Presenting one side as a complete fact, and acting as if you speak for all "top players". If those top players/buildmakers feel that way, let them post their opinion here. I for one disagree entirely.

chefung · Jun 06, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Disagree, if you're on a PvE character I'd run superior at 0 and 15 DP, then swap to a minor. Leave your inventory up and learn to doubleclick that scalp design as soon as you see warriors coming at you.

Oh, need to swap scalp too. I thought having a habbit to switch weapon sets is good enough. Even have to swap scalp...that's really hard to multitask like that =(

Like, warrior coming to me, then switch to minor rune + shepard armor? I think I can't do that, can't be a good monk

Patrograd · Jun 06, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Did you really need 590 life instead of 515?

A decent spike is going to hit you for between 650-800 points (assuming 60AL), so the extra health IMO is only really of any use when you have DP to enable you to withstand pressure better, as JR says.

My opinion on this is still kind of old school really, that on a caster greater armour is going to give you far greater long term benefit than any kind of health boost. Taking your armour from, for example, 60 to 80, is going to save you a whole shed load of trouble, will enable you to withstand all forms of pressure and spike much more comfortably, and will ease the pressure on your monks by a truly significant amount IMO

Given the choice between a superior and a minor on a boon prot, well i think a boon prot needs every single ounce of efficiency that it can get. A boon prot with less than 15 divine favour just feels wrong to me. Given that you also need 9 or 10 in inspiration and enough points in prot to be effective, i dont see how you can make this character without *at least* a major rune, and personally I'd armour this guy up to the eyeballs.

sir lockt · Jun 06, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

I agree, in general I run 1 sup and minors on everything else. If needed I swap armor and my sup DF rune (as playing boon prot) to a minor one.

I also played some time with 2 sup runes, even then it can be operated, but even when having a RoF and +armor against a spike, you wont survive it, so I swapped fully to 1 sup rune. With around 450 health you can stop a spike if its sloppy by getting a RoF or other form of healing in between. Against perfect spikes, that 75 health isnt going to safe your day, unless you have some other forms of protection up.

And btw: on a monk a sup DF rune is free healing, so free correction of the health gap, when running boon the difference is even bigger.

Happy · Jun 06, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

My opinion on this is still kind of old school really, that on a caster greater armour is going to give you far greater long term benefit than any kind of health boost. Taking your armour from, for example, 60 to 80, is going to save you a whole shed load of trouble, will enable you to withstand all forms of pressure and spike much more comfortably, and will ease the pressure on your monks by a truly significant amount IMO.

I would agree to that for the most part, Hale of Fortitude items are nice to give you some spike protection, but then again Defesive of Defense and 10+ While Enchanted gives you 80AL on a boonproot wich will give a lot of pressure reduction. To be honest on a PvE toon boonprot you should probably run both and switch as needed.

For negative energy sets there is of course still the sword and shield option to increase monk armour.
But i sort of like defensive of defesive staffs justified or not :-P

Aiiane · Jun 12, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Some playing around the other day with +10 AL staves versus +60 hp staves made me and a few others favor +10 AL versus airspike. Running +10 AL armor (either w/enchant, or if you have a pve char, vs/elemental) along with a +10 staff makes it very difficult for even the best of timed spikes to kill you before a monk can respond, and it's amazingly helpful if they start galing off-target monks - the lesser damage can be just enough time for the monk to get back up.

JR · Jun 12, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiiane

Some playing around the other day with +10 AL staves versus +60 hp staves made me and a few others favor +10 AL versus airspike. Running +10 AL armor (either w/enchant, or if you have a pve char, vs/elemental) along with a +10 staff makes it very difficult for even the best of timed spikes to kill you before a monk can respond, and it's amazingly helpful if they start galing off-target monks - the lesser damage can be just enough time for the monk to get back up.

Well Airspike is all armor-influenced damage, so there it would come out on top over more health. The majority of spikes do contain a large amount of armor ignoring damage though, which is why you generally run Hale/Fort.

rii · Jun 13, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Trying to argue a case of +health items v +armour items is pretty meaningless. +armour generally comes out on top in specific situations, +health still generally wins because it is effective in all situations. I could take +10 v airspike and then get it handed to be by obsidian, or I could take +health and have a smaller advantage over anything.

Happy · Jun 13, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

So likely is best to take one of of both if you can (2 energy sets (negative and plus), normal hale/fort staff and def/def staff) ?

There does seem to be an awfull lot of fast cast spikers and balanceds that rely on warrior adren + orb + shatter to kill their targets out there atm, enough to justify running a def/def staff secondary imho.

I'd have to do the math on what works better against smite (can't do the numbers now, at work) but from the top of my head holy damage of balths wouldn't be affected by def/def but zealots damage would drop from 37 to about the 25 - 27 range wich is still a reduction of at least 10 per zealots hit.