Curse

Rera · Oct 25, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There is a difference between gimmicks and imbalanced builds. That post was made at the time of SB/RI, Smite and Thumpers running rampant on the ladder. That is no longer the case.

Then I refer you to my previous posts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

If you could hit #1 with any gimmick build, people would either say it was a fluke, or the build is overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

The main problem here is that, if there *was* a spike build that *could* beat the likes of QQ and iQ running balanced, people would be screaming 'cheap gimmick' and get it nerfed. Fighting games don't work like that. If some guy has a combo that does 90% of your health, you learn to beat him anyway.

JR · Oct 25, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Please quantify your statement about fighting games.

Phades · Oct 26, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

He is probably referencing how they have very little to do with the rock/paper/scissors theorm for game balance design and more to do with execution. Slower characters play to counter moves vs faster ones, while faster ones try overwhelming offensive strategies, and characters with reach try controlling scenarios. However, it comes down more to timing and precision more than what each character is capable of. It can easily be parralleled into fps styled games and puzzle style games. Racing and other sims are closer to the gw model where the engine driving it will peform better depending on the environment and what its pitted against rather than purely on execution. If gw was purely execution based, there would be no discussions regarding skill balance, dps, or build combinations at all because you could take anything into the match and have a relativly equal chance at wining.

Lews · Oct 26, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

This is what we call the EP syndrome.

Rera · Oct 26, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

@JR: I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantify' in this case, since my statement doesn't really deal with numerical results or anything, unless you're referring to the 90% figure, but in that case I'm not sure what you want me to clarify.

I made the comment about fighting games because of all the Sirlin theory being carelessly thrown around in this debate. Sirlin is, as we all know, first and foremost a fighting game player, and most of his articles are directly related to fighting games in particular. I wanted to draw attention to the question of whether Sirlin's comments are really applicable to a game like GW, which is vastly different, in nearly all aspects, from a fighting game.

Drewfense · Oct 26, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

duel to the death plx

JR · Oct 26, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

@JR: I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantify' in this case, since my statement doesn't really deal with numerical results or anything, unless you're referring to the 90% figure, but in that case I'm not sure what you want me to clarify.

I made the comment about fighting games because of all the Sirlin theory being carelessly thrown around in this debate. Sirlin is, as we all know, first and foremost a fighting game player, and most of his articles are directly related to fighting games in particular. I wanted to draw attention to the question of whether Sirlin's comments are really applicable to a game like GW, which is vastly different, in nearly all aspects, from a fighting game.

Right, gotcha.

I was unsure whether you meant "people in fighting games are less scrubby and find a way to play around imbalance", which is clearly a ridiculous comment, or "the articles only apply to fighting games" which seems quite accurate.

CAT · Oct 27, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

My thoughts about the tournament:
I thought for the most part it was set up pretty well, while i disagree with the whole point system for the 3-1 thing, i felt the balancing and setup of the tournament was quite good. We didnt have the experience like PnH, iQ, and QQ had in tournies and I really didnt know what to expect from the other teams.
Most of us were on about an hour or two before the first round so that we could practice a little bit. We had lots of builds planned for tourny but in short notice a few people happen to be "busy" so a few of our builds were eliminated and we had to rework what we were going to do. I knew at some point we were going to have to bring out some sort of caster spike... and I knew people were going to bring migraine against it. We went into a scrim to practice getting a perfect spike through migraine and everyone was messing around... people really werent taking it seriously. I ragequit the migraine practice after about 3 minutes of people screwing off and i honestly blame that for not making the tourny. The obs spike is untouchable in the sense that you arn't going to be able to inturrupt it through resolve and stability(unless your using pd or something). Even if they had migarines on us, we should still in sense be able to spike targets down fast enough to keep pressure off of us. We never really got close to getting the timing down of spiking with migraine and lost the PnH match strictly from bad preperation.
I figured that running spike would be so obvious that people wouldnt think we were actually stupid enough to run it in tourny so they would prepare for another build(iE cow having dual convert hexes). In the third match i figured we still had a chance against cow running rspike. Remember that migraine builds arn't just "anti-deer" spike, they are extremely powerful against 95% of balanced builds, so i figured even if we ran a strong anti migraine build(like nr-tranq) we wouldnt have enough practice to play against a good team. I brought out the ranger spike hoping to play rock paper scissors with cow thinking they werent going to bring a shields up(or at the least a very small one) . They came in with the EXACT build i put them on (dual migraine with anti-caster orientated shutdown hexes) and I expected them to be beat by the ranger spike. Shields up just killed us (i dont know any other build that is countered completely by 1 non elite, aoe, non-spell skill ) and we really couldn't do anything.
After that we were out of the tourny.. but we felt it was pretty lame to stop and go in with hench and crap just for the capes. The rit build we ran was a somewhat modified version of illu's rit build that destroyed us when practicing. Just wanted to have some fun running an easier build that wasnt pure caster spike.
I had a lot of fun.. i really expected us to make top 4 but it was our first tourny and I think with another season of practice we'll be back up there again.

lotus · Oct 27, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

No, babycakes, shields up, aegis, spirit of failure, and images of remorse killed your spike. Plus, we migrained your casters & shut them down -- you should've brought hex breaker. Like that one iA build with the 13531535 hex breakers and QQ was guesting for them, it owned our Migraine build in like 2 minutes. Humility on your Martyr so blind was efficient. To be honest we shouldn't be losing to ranger spike/caster spike because the truth is that spike builds are easily counterable (apply more pressure than they can spike out) especially due to the slow paced game a spike build can possibly make you (unless you are killing everyone one by one). In all seriousness, we thought you were going to play sb/ri. Most of us had the mentality that oh this is going to completely suck and at least we can split them and out pressure them, while taking a few deaths. Besides, at least you had the right attributes for the tournament, and your skill bars did not consist of just prot spirit prot spirit prot spirit prot spirit e drain divine boon.
I really enjoyed the match ups. I'm not sure exactly why people were confused about who they were playing, since from the VERY BEGINNING we were told we were going to get emails. I mean, our whole roster that was playing was being emailed after every tournament round showing us who we would be playing and letting us know on what guild hall and what time we would be playing. This was extremely informative. Also, everyone had the equal advantage of knowing what guildhall and to a certaine extent what guilds would be participating in the first place. Mike Gills was pretty quick on those emails!
For the most part, I was really impressed with watching the tournament games. It was great to see guilds bring out their ideas and tactics (I mean who knew PnH had so many builds?? Who knew someone could do so well with VIM monks, seriously!). I thought it was great to see guilds from all over come try their hand. As this being cow's first tournament season, we had fun, even if we did mess up many times. I just hope everyone else who was able to play had such a good time.
Also, the whole omg iQ VoD match omg thing, since when does iQ NOT pull some random stuff out nowhere to win a game. It just shows that they've been around the block and it's not their first time at a rodeo. The game is not clearly built around skill, but tactics as well. If you spend a whole match knowing you are going to VoD you should have some sort of plan. There is a whole thread on the QQ forum about what they should have done against the iQ build, and there have been some really good suggestions (and some crazy ones requiring you to bring like 6 ward against harms and 3 ritualists). The truth is, in a ladder you take a build that best counters the current meta. In a tournament setting, you take a build that best counters the team you are going to play against. Even if this may require a bit more time and effort in the game, there are a lot of people who will talk to you about "who runs what." Anyways, I don't understand why this has to be a huge debate. No matter what, in my opinion, if you plan on playing this game in a competitive environment around GvG, you are going to have to make sure your build either 1) counters the current metagame 2) kills everything so fast nobody has a clue as to what you are doing 3) have a fantastic strat caller named Jesus who will lead your team to victory

Ajora · Oct 27, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

iE cow having dual convert hexes

Actually this was due to your buddy Dryder telling us you were going to run SB/RI. If it were a ploy to make us run hexes/converts or not, doesn't matter. You had 8 players and chose to spike. You had an entire season to play something other than spike and you didn't. To blame your losses on poor preparation 1 hour before the tourney? Come on.

Lews · Oct 27, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

He's not our buddy.