Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Against a guild that so frequently runs dual surge, Mo/A does seem a bit of a strange choice though. Obviously it was to work with the NR/Tranq, but there really wasn't much use for the NR or Tranq against the builds QQ usually runs. Having played against QQ on the same build they used in round 1, NR never seemed to bother them very much.

Regardless, excellent play from QQ and even better meta-play from iQ. GG to both teams.

DieInBasra · Oct 23, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

iQ makes it hard to be a fanboy. Taking advantage of, closer to abusing imo, a flaw in the VoD mechanics to win is pretty dirty, if not dishonorable. Congrats to everyone in the GWWC, unless you ran henchway.

It's not really broken, it's how GW is played. If you can drag a fire elementalist and a trapper 20 minutes through the game, you have a good of winning. That's fair, and if you want a slugfest go to HA. GvG is about tactics, and tournaments are about playing to your opponants. It's not like a fire ele and a trapper are an instawin, they're just really good at VoD, and you have to do something about them. It's a pretty close concept to ganking-if you can clear your opponants base while you cap flags for 20 minutes, you have a strong chance of winning. Same deal with brining an AoE characters, because they're weaker in most other situations.

That and iQ completely outbuilt them game two.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

They are other reasons why IQ would use the monk/as instead of monk/mesmer.

Rayne Eternal was a rit who used shelter and union. Ensign was also using heal party and had blinding flash to reduce warriors damage. Augie also was running his linebacker build so that warriors pressure would be less of a problem to the energy of the monks.

These three things are also a factor in choosing Mo/As blessed lighters instead of Mo/Me. Then the monks are more survivable as assasins then mesmers unless you run distortion.

Assuming QQ tried to gank after VOD these factors wold have allowed IQ to maybe absorb the impact of any gank.

This was a totally different situation from the IQ vs IB match where the warrior shutdown was two cripshots - kinda useless at the guild lord because he dont kite. Then IQ's warriors beat the hell out of the GL and IB's monks ran out of energy.

tomcruisejr · Oct 23, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Against a guild that so frequently runs dual surge, Mo/A does seem a bit of a strange choice though. Obviously it was to work with the NR/Tranq, but there really wasn't much use for the NR or Tranq against the builds QQ usually runs. Having played against QQ on the same build they used in round 1, NR never seemed to bother them very much.

yea but the nr/tranq trapper stole the attention of QQs warrior(s) in game 1 (also the rit's spirits), which imo is a good tactic. moreover, iQ's trapper in that match was impressive imo.

Desires · Oct 23, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

yea but the nr/tranq trapper stole the attention of QQs warrior(s) in game 1 (also the rit's spirits), which imo is a good tactic. moreover, iQ's trapper in that match was impressive imo.

Totaly agree in round one the warriors basicly sat on the ranger. Still trying to understand QQ's second round build choice.

My favourite match though was PnH with the VIM Monks(think it was PnH ;p) it was just to funny to watch.

Red Locust · Oct 23, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Against a guild that so frequently runs dual surge, Mo/A does seem a bit of a strange choice though. Obviously it was to work with the NR/Tranq, but there really wasn't much use for the NR or Tranq against the builds QQ usually runs. Having played against QQ on the same build they used in round 1, NR never seemed to bother them very much.

It's probably due to the fact that iQ had 3 hard warrior targets, a ranger with whirling throwing around traps, and a rit with spirit support in the back/out of the way. The usual strategy of ignoring the Mo/A doesn't work very well when there's no other viable target, makes it incredibly annoying to deal with. Plus with the glyph sac meteor shower and so much defense, you're kinda guaranteed NPC advantage at VoD, so energy management on the monks isn't that crucial.

Oct 23, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

OOOOOH! Hey guys, I'm back to post another favorite moment of the playoffs. Ok go watch cow vs qq game one of the semis. Note that Just Pay Attention is using a sword W/A. Cow gets rock and all that, ya ya ya. Ok, time for game 2! Just Pay Attention is now sporting an axe build and cow seems to be doing better, even securing a morale boost. Oddly, Just Pay Attention i ssuddenly using a zealous sword and shocking everyone; odder still is the fact that he's actually doing damage. What's going on? Oh my god -- it appears irony strikes again and all his Attrib Points are STILL IN SWORD! Couldn't he just pay attention?

Blow Up Doll · Oct 23, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

LooooL - a guildie from an previous guild i was in did that bringing 15 in axe and a bar of hammers skills. However that was just top 100 not as serious as playoffs... we still laughed for ages.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

In a ladder season match about a week ago, Te fought Fish's degen build with their only Heal Party healing for 16 points. They still won though, keke.

Spura · Oct 23, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33

IQ is using 2 things in guildwars:

1. Defensive skills are usually stronger than offensive ones. For instance hexes are more expensive than removal. Thus with enough defensive characters enemy can;t kill you.

2. VoD boosts offense.

Thus being overly defensive is a good strategy. Their build was more defensive than QQ one, making it possible to hold till VoD without many losses. VoD boosted offense and IQ's offense, previously unadequate to break QQ defense became strong enough, while IQ's defense, being very strong before VoD, was adequate at VoD to avoid dying a lot.

Patccmoi · Oct 23, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lews

Yeah we got rolled by some team, Illu or whatever and said 'wow that build raped, let's steal it for the tournie.'

Fun build, but IIRC you had 1 monk and an emo, but I might be wrong.

Ya, the setup was not exactly the same, but it was still obvious that the build came from there, considering there is like no one else running 3 Rt/Me hehe.

We didn't actually have an E/Mo, this build is the only successful one we run that doesn't even include Heal Party or Extinguish, we manage with Life only (and we beat some hex-heavy team, KGYU pressure or NR/Tranq/QZ 3 ranger condition spamming ran by some top 100 guilds) and mostly by splitting when a team degens too much.

We only use 1 monk ya, our Rt/Me Resto is our second one. With spirits around, a Resto Rt is EASILY worth a monk and has some pretty cool advantages over them (like MB&S clears all conditions from someone like RC and Expel Hexes removed lots of hexes, a monk can't really have these 2. And Soothing Memories while holding an item is pretty much as good as Healing Light). Running 2 Monks + Resto Rt is really like having 3 Monks, really heavy defense.

Our 3 Rts aren't split exactly like you though since we have 1 Channeling, 1 Communing and 1 Resto, but the Communing keeps Weapon of Quickening on the Channeling guy (which ends up with much higher DPS on him and no downtime on Attuned. Channeling with that has around 55DPS, i posted it in the 'Why Nuking Sucks' thread. Was told it was too low utility for GvG, but what do you know =p) as well as on the Surge Mes we have instead of your second monk (15s recharge ESurge-EBurn ftw). So basically we have the casting of 1.5 Channeling Rt and 1.5 Dom Mesmer, which is nearly like having 1 extra pressure char. Communing Rt also keeps Brutal Weapon on our warriors for +16 damage every hit. He raises the DPS of the team a lot, but not directly, just by buffing everyone else (and with level 16 Pain-Blood-Shadow ofc). The full build for them is actually posted on GWO in the Rt section, it's something we first started using in TA, then expanded it for HA, and now for GvG.

And our runner is a Cripshot instead of E/Mo for ganking and such. Our build is meant to be split-heavy overall while yours replaced the mobility/ganking by a very solid defense to go all-out 8v8. We're at 16-0 with it off-season. It doesn't mean all that much there but we beat quite a bit of top 100 teams that seemed like they were trying for real.

As for iQ vs QQ... seriously QQ in the final game had 2 ganking sin and didn't manage to get a real NPC advantage. Even without the fire ele wiping QQ's NPCs really fast (which is fine... interrupt him if you don't want that happening, it's a fire ele, he's MEANT for it!), having these 2 would've been a big weakness for them there. Ganking Assassins are really weak in combat (Shock-Falling-Spider ganker must have about the lowest DPS an offensive char can get if there's a monk around to stop the degen). iQ just had what it took to win and used it well.

DieInBasra · Oct 23, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

As for iQ vs QQ... seriously QQ in the final game had 2 ganking sin and didn't manage to get a real NPC advantage. Even without the fire ele wiping QQ's NPCs really fast (which is fine... interrupt him if you don't want that happening, it's a fire ele, he's MEANT for it!), having these 2 would've been a big weakness for them there. Ganking Assassins are really weak in combat (Shock-Falling-Spider ganker must have about the lowest DPS an offensive char can get if there's a monk around to stop the degen). iQ just had what it took to win and used it well.

More then that, the ranger spirits raped thier smiter, iQ's monks were mo/a vs an easily kiteable offense, iQ's build had an awesome defensive split, and yeah, because most of the NPC advantage(not much IIRC) that QQ got was worthless when VoD rolled around because of the trapper and fire ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Our 3 Rts aren't split exactly like you though since we have 1 Channeling, 1 Communing and 1 Resto, but the Communing keeps Weapon of Quickening on the Channeling guy (which ends up with much higher DPS on him and no downtime on Attuned. Channeling with that has around 55DPS, i posted it in the 'Why Nuking Sucks' thread. Was told it was too low utility for GvG, but what do you know =p) as well as on the Surge Mes we have instead of your second monk (15s recharge ESurge-EBurn ftw). So basically we have the casting of 1.5 Channeling Rt and 1.5 Dom Mesmer, which is nearly like having 1 extra pressure char. Communing Rt also keeps Brutal Weapon on our warriors for +16 damage every hit. He raises the DPS of the team a lot, but not directly, just by buffing everyone else (and with level 16 Pain-Blood-Shadow ofc). The full build for them is actually posted on GWO in the Rt section, it's something we first started using in TA, then expanded it for HA, and now for GvG.

In case you didn't notice, your build got played exactly like an adreno spike, which means that MORE DOTS doesn't really matter. The reason They got rolled so easily imo is they were expecting a pure caster or ranger spike, and they got something that could DPS, if not that well. You notice the complete lack of Heal Party on WoW's side? I think if they a eprod powered one the game could have been pretty differant.

Quote:

Thus being overly defensive is a good strategy. Their build was more defensive than QQ one, making it possible to hold till VoD without many losses. VoD boosted offense and IQ's offense, previously unadequate to break QQ defense became strong enough, while IQ's defense, being very strong before VoD, was adequate at VoD to avoid dying a lot.

They also can turn alot of thier defensive characters into offensive ones, the trapper can trap around thier midline, or he can trap near the iQ's monks or the flagstand, the linebacker can targets warriors or monks, and the flag runner can toss fireballs or blinding flashes.

Blame the Monks · Oct 23, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

iQ makes it hard to be a fanboy. Taking advantage of, closer to abusing imo, a flaw in the VoD mechanics to win is pretty dirty, if not dishonorable.

OMG U STUPID RUNNING NOOB MONK. STAND STILL AND FIGHT ME LIKE A MAN!!~

What exactly is dishonorable about using vod mechanics to your tactical advantage? When we played them, we knew it was coming but thought (incorrectly) we could beat them before vod. Stupid on our part in retrospect, but I give them props for excellent strategic play. I am happy that iQ is proving wins in playoffs go to the best tactical/strategic players and not just the team with the best twitch time.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

(which is fine... interrupt him if you don't want that happening, it's a fire ele, he's MEANT for it!)

Ensign is a pretty smart guy. He would cast the Glyph of Sacrifice way in the back out of range,then move up and use Meteor Shower. Short of a Gale-lock or Blackout chain (which QQ didn't have) there really wasn't any way to prevent him using Meteor Shower on the NPCs.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 23, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

the only reason any sane elementalist would play shower in gvg is if running glyph of sacrifice, plus you also get my favorite hard rez. fire is insanely strong in pvp and why more people don't run it I'm unsure, but at least someone in the high-end community knows how to blow shit up.

JR · Oct 23, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

fire is insanely strong in pvp and why more people don't run it I'm unsure,

When used on non-kiting extremely balled up NPCs? Sure.

Neo-LD · Oct 24, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

When used on non-kiting extremely balled up NPCs? Sure.

Non-kiting extremely balled up NPCs are part of pvp, no?

Zui · Oct 24, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Non-kiting extremely balled up NPCs are part of pvp, no?

Unfortunately

Phades · Oct 24, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

After a rather long waiting period.

I found it amusing that he didnt even need or rather chose not to cast much at all putting many of his cast spells on the sacrifice timer and just doing the flag run letting the moral bonus refresh it. Actually i began to wonder if he even needed any energy management at all due to how infrequently he used skills at times.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

As mentioned, the fire ele's job is to sit on the back and spam defensive skills until VoD, at which point he uses his few AoEs to rock the enemy NPC force. As a result, he's only really useful in builds that plan to go to VoD every game. Since the ladder is about grinding out as many wins as possible in the shortest span of time, pure-VoD builds aren't very common among high-ranked guilds.

Arguably, this is one of the reasons so many guilds were unprepared to counter iQ in the tournament. QQ went into the tournament primarily with builds they'd been running on the ladder, which means they wouldn't have had many tests against VoD builds like iQ's.

One could also argue that VoD builds being ineffective in ladder play is why the NPC VoD mechanic hasn't been looked at yet.