Curse

Snowman · Oct 09, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

rofl,

I wonder what all the players who "dont like" this change are going to do now?

Quit Guildwars?

Out with the old, in with the new I say xD

dirtydutch · Oct 09, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

so... nothing's changed?

Just give it some time. There will be like ppl starting to run gimmicks builds. I mean comeon its only the first weak.

dgb · Oct 09, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silver Star

I did not say i was expecting radical new builds in three days, however you rarely see a basic balanced team. Sounds to me like you play these builds aswell or are a iwayer.

How exactly is the average conditions build not balanced. I'd argue single smite builds are as well. I'll stretch that double smite is a gimmick. I'd like to here what you define as balanced.

Seriously, what does a build have to do to get credit these days? Include Icy Prism, Melandru's Shot and Shield Guardian before it gets called balanced?

We understand that you hate the change and are looking for anything that you can bring up in oposition. But don't go around arbitarily saying nothing is balanced and you should be ashamed to run them.

And how the hell can I be an IWAYer. Look up. All my fame came off monking. Can you not read? Are you thick?

Formosa · Oct 09, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

<3 6v6, no more thinking required.

My strategy for my teams on relic runs: Kill everyone then cap a few.

On altar maps: Kill everyone then cap the altar.

So much easier than 8v8.

dirtydutch · Oct 09, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formosa

<3 6v6, no more thinking required.

My strategy for my teams on relic runs: Kill everyone then cap a few.

On altar maps: Kill everyone then cap the altar.

So much easier than 8v8.

The thinking part is something i kinda liked in relic runes. Belief it or not my favorite map is the relic run cus its not only fighting.

The Silver Star · Oct 09, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I didnt post that condition builds and dual smite werent balanced builds. I said that i felt they are dominant in 6v6. Over any other balanced build. I enjoy relic runs also because its there is a different objective other than kill kill kill kill them all.

Wilhelm · Oct 09, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Nothing like the red team pm'ing you, telling to attack blue.

Observed a game yesterday morning. War Machine against 3 random pugs on Scarred Earth. WM disposes of first team, runs in on other battle. Both teams kill off WM, then continue on.

phasola · Oct 09, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

i like the relic runs because it was something else than kill kill kill
guess those times are over...

Mental Leteci · Oct 09, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Petitions don't work. ANet are bunch of retards and they won't change this even if they see it's wrong because then it would mean it's their mistake and how could so huge company allow mistakes like this one.

Skuld · Oct 09, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Be fair.

Boofhead · Oct 09, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

My only complaint lies with Broken Tower and Courtyard... Running around with a high rank really does put the bullseye right over your team, even when you're NOT holding let alone nowhere NEAR altar. Do I really have to PUG everytime I want to avoid getting ganked?? Want me and guildies to leave the guild and get reinvited everytime we wanna go Tomb??

Sure I'll miss 8vs8, I like the 6vs6 too, but not the 6vs6vs6 when it's not Halls.

It basically goes like this:

-"well-known" team doesn't cap - wants to do cap game
-"not-so-well-known" team caps
-"noob team" gets convinced by "not-so-well-known" team to attack us, because we are zomg high rank
-gank.

Ha, you obviously weren't around for 6-team burial mounds, when it wasn't uncommon for high-ranked teams to face 5v1.

defrule · Oct 09, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Petitions don't work. ANet are bunch of retards and they won't change this even if they see it's wrong because then it would mean it's their mistake and how could so huge company allow mistakes like this one.

It most likely will do nothing but it's worth the try. At the very least, I hope it tells ArenaNet to think more carefully about their updates in the future.

Lorekeeper · Oct 10, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

hey all

So me and my guild The Shattered Hand [TSH] were tombsing today for about 5 hours. We were having a real good time running our unique build.

Ill just try make a list of the nature of the builds we faced.

2 x bloodspikes in total
Z amount of smite builds 2 war/1 war+1sin/2sin/1x sin variations
X amount of sword warrior + melandrus + poison + trapper
Y amount of single warrior + Ele/A builds
A amount of pure Ele/A fire ele builds
B amount of dual surge single ele single warrior builds
C amount of hex builds with no warriors
D amount of hex builds with 1 warrior
E amount of vimway teams
Zero Iways (although im sure there were a couple of them)
Zero Rspike (although i do know some guilds were running them)

We all had a great time, i think the fun thing about our run today was the fact that everytime we lost and went back in, we learnt something more about the new metagame. i place less value on fame/time ratio and more on skill/fame ratio.

With the old 8 vs 8, the metagame had become to stale that old players like me got a little fed up of the stuff we would expect to see being done in tombs. Fame for me lost its quality, i didnt really learn anything from winning matches anymore. New builds in the 8 vs 8 days, were just needles in a haystack of fotm and gimmicks. And if i tried to run a build which had a monkline different to the established tombs backlines with some Random pugs, id get some very narrowminded comments from players.

Anyway the main thing that pushed players like me from tombs was most annoyingly yet most memorably... the abundance of iways and bloodspikes. Which in a 1 vs 1 environment were potentially fun fights depending on our teams ability to do wat was needed to win. However, on particular maps, the iway or bspike teams would behave in such a lame way that it just didnt make us wanna come back to play more, regardless of whether we won or not. Winning is not fun if you waste 15+min to win burial mounds and then another 15+min scarred earth. Specially when the behaviour of these teams is only to delay your victory... this is such unsportsmanlike behaviour i just couldnt stand to see it.

My thoughts on 6 vs 6

When i read about the map changes i was struck with the fear that tombs would still be full of this gamesmanship which repulses me.Im really pleased to say that in the 5 hours we spent in tombs today, we didnt once encounter a team behaving in this manner. (due to us facing very little bspike and iway? possibly!)

Broken tower is the first source of frustration for teams.
The greatest complaint i can see people making (not me personally) about broken tower is its difficulty level compared to Underworld. Jumping to a fight with 2 other teams is already a big jump up from 1 vs 1, but also introducing the mechanic of capping an altar is rather a big task for the less experienced among us. My friend jiloc defends this tough learning curve, with his own good arguments, but i would argue for a less harsh learning curve.

However, id like to just say that, wateva issues people have about broken tower might be solved once they get more experience in that environment again (anyone remember when broken tower actually was 3 teams... some matches ud get all the teams running around chasing eachother). I admit, I entered broken tower a few days ago... assuming that noone would know wat to do, so i told my teams to cap first and let the inexperience of other teams win for us. This actually worked for some time.

Then, teams became more aware of wat was needed. Of course we would see some teams piling onto the altar trying to kill all the heroes thinking that would win them the game (specially with the influx of new tombsers). But teams started to figure out that you gotta ignore the 3rd team if it didn cap and kill the team who caps the altar. You might think this obvious, but im afraid theres many players out there who just dont get it. And its crazy to expect them to without them having experience of fights like this already.

So it seems like Broken Tower, being only the 2nd map in rotation needs to be treated with the same level of respect and caution and strategy as the LAST map in the rotation.

Im probably stating the obvious, many of you might be thinking.. DUH?! But come on, any tournament based competition is meant to progress from lower lvl difficulty matches gradually up to high lvl difficulty matches. Its seems like at the moment the only people good at broken tower are the ones who are good at capping courtyward and HOH... but shouldnt the success thru experience mechanic be working upwards instead of downwards?!

For the most experienced of us out there, broken tower tactics are tactics we are all familiar with. However, wat about those players who dont have as much altar map experience? Dont forget that Broken tower 2 team matches are a totally different experience to 3 team matches. The only 3+ team altar matches any team would face, are courtyard and HOH. You cannot assume that ALL teams have GOOD experience on these sort of matches. There are teams full of players who have NEVER been to courtyard, and most certainly teams who have NEVER been to HOH.

And so my conclusion about Broken Tower is... i think we are expecting far too much from Tombs teams so early on in the rotation.

Moving on to the only other map that could potentially cause problems...

scarred earth

The lever allowing a 3rd team to enter the fight is one that i saw as potential for some upset. But i must say that the scarred earth matches we fought today were great fun. Not famewise, cos they still took over 10min to finish, but for sheer strategy and team movement. And like i said earlier i value player skill/fame ratio rather than fame gained/time ratio.

I have great respect for [iA] as a tombs guild and we were paired up with them on scarred earth with some unknown guilds or pugs fighting in the adjacent area. [iA] scored the first kill, but we managed to gain the upperhand and we forced them into a retreat scoring successive kills on them. However we took note that we would have to prepare to be joined by the victorious team from the other fight.

We were forced into a running battle with [iA], each team trying not to leave their backs exposed to the 3rd team. They finally came in as we once again gained the upperhand against [iA] but as they came in, [iA] retreated out of the fight. So we were left to fight a new opponent while [iA] recovered. We were then faced with the horrible prospect of being caught up in a battle with this 3rd team, with a full strength full energy [iA] just waiting to pounce on us. Which they did. Most of our team saw [iA] advancing into our rear, but one of our monks was not so fast to react and collapsed under the pressure of 2 teams. Our 2nd healer (not a monk) collapsed soon after and we decided to resign from the match.

definately a GG.

It was such a fun battle to fight. We had to constantly switch our positions in accordance to the 3rd team, and whoever won, was the team who had the best mobility and ability to react as a team.

We experienced a similiar fight a few runs later, this time a 3rd team tried to gank us while we were engaged and winning against our original opponents. However, we retreated from the fight and ended up ganking the 3rd team who was now embroiled into a fight with another team and finishing off our original opponents afterwards instead. We basically did wat [iA] did to us earlier on in the day.
It was another really really fun battle. Because it involved map awareness, radar awareness, position awareness that is often not involved in tombs matches.

I have no complaints about Scarred earth anymore. Specially since we are seeing less teams who benefit from the running game. And especially since a new type of strategy is being introduced into tombs. A strategy that will once again help separate the good teams from the bad teams. A strategy that will provide all tombs players with new skills to carry into their guilds.

I think Anet should introduce at least once more 1vs1 match, in a new environment, like the old burial mounds, with an obelisk, and priests. The relic run should be 3rd, introducing a map where fighting was not the only aim.

Then broken tower as the 4th map in rotation.

underworld 1 vs 1
new map 1 vs 1 with priests
unholy temples relic run
Broken tower altar capping
scarred earth with possible 1 vs 1 vs 1

this way you earn more fame from fighting tough fights like broken tower and scarred earth. Rewarding players for finishing tough maps is wat will make them come back for more... As things stand at the moment, inexperienced teams who have no success at broken tower, will get fed up of only winning fame from successful Underworld fights.

Harsh learning curves turn away the casual crowd. Tombs with a hard rotation of maps will be full of the ''elite'' who have much more experience. If it looks as though you cannot win fame unless you have lots of experience, then we will lose wat is one of the most important resources to the pvp community... new players.

sorry to type for so long, i dont post very often so lets just say ive been saving up for a rainy day.

thanks for your time

Lorekeeper

Thanas · Oct 10, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Alright, for those of you that say 6v6 cuts down on gimmicks, a lesson in math: with a six player HA, we have 6 slots to fill, and 8 professions to do this, with repetitive professions allowed. With 8v8, we have 8 slots to fill and 8 professions to do this, with repetitive professions allowed. DO THE MATH, less diversity in 6v6. And with nightfall coming out, and 10 proffs to squeeze into 6 slots... oh my god...

You've not proved anything here. How does what you are saying relate to gimmick builds?

And anyway with more classes there will be more room for diversity regardless of whether there are 6 slots to fill or not, since there will be an influx of new skills. Also I'd like to note with 8v8 balanced there was ussually a 3 monk backline, so in 8v8 you only really had one extra player slot available compared to 6v6 where you ussually have a 2 monk backline.

If you do the math there isn't really much discrepancy in the number of character combinations with 10 classes and 6 slots, compared to 8 classes and 8 slots.

Boofhead · Oct 10, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Like I wrote before, I merely submited a link to a petition I found there, and I certainly think that gwguru would be a better place to post it, but I wast the original author. The problem is HA community doesnt have their own "place" to gather.... gwonline is for pve'ers, guild hall for gvg players, and guru... well guru is pretty much for everyone, but sadly, most of tombs players arent registered anywhere, so their voice really cant be heard.....

Lots of us still hope that the change can be undone, and anet would listen to our proposals concerning changes in Heroes Ascend.

Peace.

And what about those of us who are happy with the change and would prefer it to remain that way?

vandree · Oct 10, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

And what about those of us who are happy with the change and would prefer it to remain that way?

Then dont sign the Petition! hehe

Minus Sign · Oct 10, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

It's certainly interesting, and fun at times, and I'll continue to go there until I have a tiger, but I don't see myself wanting to join an exclusive HA guild or anything anytime soon.

I think this is the general consensus among players right now. HA=meh. Even those who like the changes admit its not going to turn them into HAers for any long period of time. Its "get emote, get out", something that existed in the 8v8 environment...with its old fan base.

Combat Politics haven't really changed. there were always whispers between yellow and red. My answer in 8v8 and 6v6 (whether I'm going on the double team or taking the beating) is and always will be "watch for the double cross".

The only difference is that with the shorter hold time you "feel" that double cross more acutely. With fewer counters on your build its much easier for yellow and red to take blue on, but if you can keep your interupters (a requirment in the new meta) alive and hitting 2 ghosts, blue can still come out the victor when the tmer runs out.

As for group politics: Too many times in HA today I saw people complaining that they couldn't get into groups. In-game I'm sure you've all heard them too. But here they remain the silent minority. Business as usual: get your emote/title or accept that you're stuck in crap groups. 6v6 didn't change the PuG dynamic. I don't think anything will in a game with emotes and fame titles.

As for the "I love the change" folks: I find it surprising that no one has mentioned how easy it is to get into ID1 during peek. Used to be if you wanted to get in there it was "full district" half a dozen times. Frankly it looks more like "out with the old, in with the...uhh..." when you think about it. My group faced the same Bspike 3 times in half an hour. Keep in mind, thats with more groups of 6 man (presumably) running than those old "tired" 8-man teams.

How can I keep facing the same teams again and again if there are more people playing? Where are you guys? Where did you go and what are you doing?

I'll tell you where I think you went. In fact, I think I already have:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Right--back--where--you--CAME--FROM!

@Anet: thanks for breaking HA. GG in life and Guild Wars.

The Silver Star · Oct 10, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Many of us hope that the 6v6 will be reversed, well sure it was fun for the first day but the variety of builds is minimal as im sure many would agree. However it is easier for some new HA players to make teams which is a bonus BUT.. there are less people than ever it seems with the new 6v6, however i dont like it now that burial mounds has gone because now the majority of maps are also alter maps which isnt so fun. People even with 6v6 even if they dont like it will still continue to play to get there tiger/wolf or w/e

-Loki- · Oct 10, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

I wonder if the people signing the online petition realise that no one but those signing the online petition cares about online petitions?

Thom · Oct 10, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I feel that a short term drop in number was predictable, since you are killing the current HoH community. The hope is that a new community will form which is more diverse in level of casualness and build types.