Curse

ZiegDivine · Oct 08, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

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On-Topic: what 6v6 creates in the competitive environment of HA is more rock paper scissors. Fewer characters on your team means less ability to adapt your build to different strategies, less flexibility in the balanced structure. This is the "feel" that people are talking about in thread. Less flexibility--less players--makes the structure of any build more rigid in what it can do and what it can counter.

QFT. Yesterday we were in sacred temples against some hex/condition heavy team. In a 8v8 build we could have beaten them, they were decent, but not amazing. However, 6v6 makes it hard for us to counter a hex heavy build simply because we don't have enough utility spaces, especially on a map that requires a split a lot of the time.

Minus Sign · Oct 08, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

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Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

that's how i see it.

anyway, i just find it ridiculously funny that certain balanced players are quitting the game/hearing their friends cry because of that/selling their accounts because ha is now 6vs6. it's not like your 6 man balanced team vs 8 iway team or 8 bloodspike team or 8 vimway team. if you really know how to play balanced, you can scale your 8 man team to 6 team to deal with different teams with 6 players.

as you said, one qualification of being balanced is be able to adapt. so if you're leetzors rank 11 that never iwayed or vimwayed, you should be able to adapt and play balanced in the new HA coz you're the leetest balanced HAer ever.

I actually agree about the ragequitters, though I understand their view. It was the only style of play they were interested in. it was the game they liked to play. ANd making HA 6v6 has changed the feel of the game into something they "don't want to play". So they aren't ragequitting. Not most of them. They just aren't interested anymore.

The general consensus--as I see it--amoung the "don't want it"s is that the playstyle now found in HA is somewhere between TA or AB depending on what your group spread is. We already have an AB. We already have a TA. When I want one of those games, I go there.

HA 8v8 was a unique expierience. That special feel it used to have is gone now.

EDIT Update: checked Observer this evening. Saw a ViMWay, an IWAY and a funky Bspike using phantom pain duking it out in HoH.

This didn't fix the gimmicks folks. They're like the freakin borg, always adapting and resistence is futile.

tomcruisejr · Oct 08, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

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Originally Posted by Minus Sign

EDIT Update: checked Observer this evening. Saw a ViMWay, an IWAY and a funky Bspike using phantom pain duking it out in HoH.

This didn't fix the gimmicks folks. They're like the freakin borg, always adapting and resistence is futile.

so does it mean that 8vs8 generic "balanced" HA build was the "gimmick" build A.Net wants to get rid of coz it only runs in 8vs8 setting?

if not, then maybe youll see still 6 man team with sb/infuse, woh, some prot, choking gas ranger, migraine mesmer and shock warrior one of these days.

defrule · Oct 08, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

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Originally Posted by Thanas

Changes to GW have happened before and everyone said oooh they're bad, then what do you know, a few months later they are the norm and everyones happy with them.

Not everyone is happy about changes in the past, it's just that we can't do anything about it. I didn't like the change from Tomb of Primeval Kings to Hero's Ascent and I still don't like it, and my not complaining is doesn't mean I'm happy with it.

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that's how i see it.

anyway, i just find it ridiculously funny that certain balanced players are quitting the game/hearing their friends cry because of that/selling their accounts because ha is now 6vs6. it's not like your 6 man balanced team vs 8 iway team or 8 bloodspike team or 8 vimway team. if you really know how to play balanced, you can scale your 8 man team to 6 team to deal with different teams with 6 players.

as you said, one qualification of being balanced is be able to adapt. so if you're leetzors rank 11 that never iwayed or vimwayed, you should be able to adapt and play balanced in the new HA coz you're the leetest balanced HAer ever.

By your logic if the change was not to 6v6 but having 4 skills in your bar instead of 8, you would be fine with it and argue that balanced players should be able to adapt to the change.

Just forget about all that adapting shit, many of us just don't like it. Period.

tomcruisejr · Oct 08, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

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Originally Posted by defrule

By your logic if the change was not to 6v6 but having 4 skills in your bar instead of 8, you would be fine with it and argue that balanced players should be able to adapt to the change.

Just forget about all that adapting shit, many of us just don't like it. Period.

if a.net made it 8 man but with 4 skill bar, the game still goes on. i may not like it but i won't cry to a.net and customize the game to my liking.

as you've said

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Originally Posted by defrule

Not everyone is happy about changes in the past, it's just that we can't do anything about it....

used to win w/ IWAY in GvG and Halls. but when it got changed and affected our game, we didnt go to forums, cried, hear our friends (err) cry and/or sold our accounts.

Thanas · Oct 08, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

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Originally Posted by defrule

Not everyone is happy about changes in the past, it's just that we can't do anything about it. I didn't like the change from Tomb of Primeval Kings to Hero's Ascent and I still don't like it, and my not complaining is doesn't mean I'm happy with it.

An exaduration perhaps, but my point was some people who are initially opposed to change come to appreciate that change given time. Granted not everybody will be happy, but they will be in the minority. I don't think Anet are in the habit of alienating the entire community for the sake of having it their way. They are a money making organisation after all. It doesn't make sense to keep the minority happy at the cost of making everyone else unhappy.

rustysilver · Oct 08, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I think the 6v6 and the new map changes are awesome... quite possibly the best thing to ever happen to HA. It takes a lot more skill from a team now to win than it did in the past.

Mental Leteci · Oct 08, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

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Originally Posted by Thanas

Its not TA though, you keep on comparing 6v6 to TA, but it isnt.

I do? Where? I never compared it to TA.

Mental Leteci · Oct 08, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

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Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

if a.net made it 8 man but with 4 skill bar, the game still goes on. i may not like it but i won't cry to a.net and customize the game to my liking.

It's not to MY or YOURS liking. Do you see how many people are complaining?

phasola · Oct 08, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

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I think the 6v6 and the new map changes are awesome... quite possibly the best thing to ever happen to HA. It takes a lot more skill from a team now to win than it did in the past.

Hure it takes skill... right, it's all about luck, like some other people said - rock, paper, scissors. Having 6 people doesnt allow you to counter everything.
And yes, Anet did some game changes in the past, but nothing as radical as modifying the size of the team. I wonder what's next, 16 man pve groups ? To make it easier ?

TheOneMephisto · Oct 08, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

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Originally Posted by phasola

Hure it takes skill... right, it's all about luck, like some other people said - rock, paper, scissors. Having 6 people doesnt allow you to counter everything.
And yes, Anet did some game changes in the past, but nothing as radical as modifying the size of the team. I wonder what's next, 16 man pve groups ? To make it easier ?

Don't forget that they've already added 12-man elite missions and PvE missions where they have 2 groups of 8 teaming up.

So actually, they already have 16 man pve groups.

Random Nonsense · Oct 08, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

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Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I actually agree about the ragequitters, though I understand their view. It was the only style of play they were interested in. it was the game they liked to play. ANd making HA 6v6 has changed the feel of the game into something they "don't want to play". So they aren't ragequitting. Not most of them. They just aren't interested anymore.

HA 8v8 was a unique expierience. That special feel it used to have is gone now.

This didn't fix the gimmicks folks. They're like the freakin borg, always adapting and resistence is futile.

I agree with you. I enjoyed Guild Wars very much until they started having a new update every other day to download something. I've never played a game with so much nerffing and downloads. They ruined the fun people use to have. I don't like the changes, therefore I sold my account and I'm happy with the results. I'll miss my friends, but I got their emails so it's all good then. I'm convinced many people play Guild Wars because it's free and they don't have anything better to do.

The problem with 6 vs 6 is it makes it almost like a competition to be in a Guild now. A lot of people end up sitting out. With 8 vs 8 I felt like we had more of a chance for creativity and more of a chance for players in the Guild to play. 8 vs 8 gives people a chance to play with their friends and to guest for the guild. Well now it's like, wtf do we do with 4 dmg dealers?

The map changes, from what I have noticed seem very annoying. It looks like ANET has made it very easy to skip to halls but hard to get to halls.

The Scarred Earth changes are very bad. The Broken Tower map is like Courtyard, thus making Broken Tower AND Courtyard exactly like Hall of Hero's except you can't hold as well because there is so much chaos going on. There is nothing to look foward to for many PvP players. Just plain annoyance and the same damn bullshit all the time.

Mental Leteci · Oct 08, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

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Originally Posted by Random Nonsense

I agree with you. I enjoyed Guild Wars very much until they started having a new update every other day to download something. I've never played a game with so much nerffing and downloads. They ruined the fun people use to have. I don't like the changes, therefore I sold my account and I'm happy with the results. I'll miss my friends, but I got their emails so it's all good then. I'm convinced many people play Guild Wars because it's free and they don't have anything better to do.

The problem with 6 vs 6 is it makes it almost like a competition to be in a Guild now. A lot of people end up sitting out. With 8 vs 8 I felt like we had more of a chance for creativity and more of a chance for players in the Guild to play. 8 vs 8 gives people a chance to play with their friends and to guest for the guild. Well now it's like, wtf do we do with 4 dmg dealers?

The map changes, from what I have noticed seem very annoying. It looks like ANET has made it very easy to skip to halls but hard to get to halls.

The Scarred Earth changes are very bad. The Broken Tower map is like Courtyard, thus making Broken Tower AND Courtyard exactly like Hall of Hero's except you can't hold as well because there is so much chaos going on. There is nothing to look foward to for many PvP players. Just plain annoyance and the same damn bullshit all the time.

QFT. Best post so far.

Divinus Stella · Oct 08, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I would like to see larger pvp arenas, something less random and objective orientated than alliance battles, most of the fun in HA is composing a team, with 12/16 it would be even more fun, perhaps only a viable option for guild teams as pugs are hard to controll as 8, it could lead to very interesting builds, on the other hand it could fall into the hands of lame builds just as easily.

Thanas · Oct 08, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

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Originally Posted by subterra

You know, there seems to me there are two classes of people here.

1. The supporters of 6v6 who's only valid argument is to be able to find / put together a group easier. This may be true in their case. The map changes are to weak to support an argument of positive effect.

And

2. The people who like to play the GAME. HA isnt about finding a group, it's about playing the game. The mechanics of 8v8 was much more fun and competitive than 6v6.

To the above, you insinuate all of us who don't support the change are "foul mouthed teens" with too much time on our hands. You have no clue what you
are talking about. I'd be willing to bet that Im older than you with more responsibilities than you. This isnt a pissing match about who has more time to play GW, though. Better put, you do / did not have to devote tons of time to putting together a team in Heroes Ascent. I can barely log on without being PM'd to join a HA group (and I do not play 24/7 nor do I have the time to).

I've played enough 6v6 now to confirm that I am disappointed in this change and Anets decision to make it this way. For crying out loud, they could have just made TA 6v6...

Several things to say and I'm not going to say them again!

Firstly I did not call everyone who doesnt support 6v6 a foul mouthed teen. What I was insinuating is that from the state of the 'against' posts here most people must be foul mouthed teens. If I see F U Anet repeatedly am I to think articulate mature player or the aforementioned? If you wish to include yourself in the latter group that is your perogative. If you must know I had not included you in that group. Once again don't put words in my mouth.

Secondly my support for 6v6 does not solely lie in the fact that it is easier to get a team in 6v6. I said for me and many other players this was a good feature. I have mentioned a number of other reasons for liking 6v6 including the fact I believe 6v6 will help to reduce the use of the current gimmick builds. Yes I'm aware that this isnt the case at the moment. However once the metagame settles I believe this will be the case and more balanced builds will become fashionable. I also like the fact that teams can now not be overly defensive. I hate stalemate situations in PvP. I also believe that 6v6 will bring new builds and bring innovation, although I know many people will argue with this. If I'm wrong so what, at least I'm gonna see it out.

Thanas · Oct 08, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

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Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I do? Where? I never compared it to TA.

Sorry that was badly quoted. I was actually responding to minus sign. I don't know why I quoted you. Sorry about that. My apologies.

Nero · Oct 08, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

i personally love the 3 team broken tower, but i'm not sure how i feel on the 6v6

Mighti · Oct 09, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

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Originally Posted by phasola

Hure it takes skill... right, it's all about luck, like some other people said - rock, paper, scissors. Having 6 people doesnt allow you to counter everything.

No.
Having 6 People forces you to minimize the utilities that made HA so boring, spellbreaker, ward of stability (+5 other wards on every team), seeking arrows + practiced stance, psychic distraction, meteor shower and all that crap you'd only ever need on an altar map. Now you actually gotta take useful skills instead to make it to hoh in the first place.

Katina · Oct 09, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

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Originally Posted by Nero

i personally love the 3 team broken tower, but i'm not sure how i feel on the 6v6

I think if they wanted 3 man tower it should come later on the Map rotation, seeing how its a mini alter map like HoH. Having a 3 way alter map in the first 3 matches is bs. The whole thing is bs.

dgb · Oct 09, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I'm R6, I've got nearly all of it through monking. So I'm not as experienced as the EaT troll-squad that seems to hang around here, but I've played HA a bit. I have to say I love the change.

Monking. Being forced to go to two monks greatly improves my monking experience. It basically means you can't afford someone to be a pure orison turret as the WoH guy was before. Playing WoH in 8v8 made me want to stab my eyes out, it was inane. Now you end up with two monks, both of which have to understand how to monk to do decently - big improvement from my point of view.

Gameplay. Holding builds are garbage quite frankly now. All altar maps are threeway and if you try to cap and hold you're going to get smacked down. I've been squeezing utility in where I can for holding (leech sigs on both monks etc.) but not gimping the entire build. If we want to take someone off the altar, we kill their monks and it works. I'm not particularly sorry to see spikes go either, they didn't annoy me but I can't honestly think of one game against a spike team that I would think of as memorable. I'm not sorry if all you can do is spike. Suck less IMO.

Overall I think it's restored a lot of balance in that you now can't completely overwhelm a particular aspect. GVG is balanced at 8 man level because you can force people to react/need a flagger etc. In HA none of that was required so you could essentially have half your team devoted to something. Have a look at the hex builds that were floating around with four hexers powering out hexes - it was insane how many hexes they could put out - now you have to think about how you're going to do your hexes - you can still run them but it's not just overwhelm the enemy with 1 hex per second.

The map changes. These were a bit underwhelming, the solution to the size of burial mounds was a bit brutal to me, instead of changing the map they just killed it. Broken tower is interesting in that it's a gamble because the teams are so unstable at that stage that you don't know what they're going to do. On the other hand, you can generally wipe them both if you have a clue. Otherwise it's just courtyard. Scarred is a bit stupid - I don't think it adds much. Going into the threeway just makes you gank bait, any half decent team will just withdraw as soon as you enter leaving you to fight it out with the others. In the end I found myself waiting for the other fight to nearly end anyway, so it still takes as long. Courtyard had it's change coming from a long time ago.