Curse

Ado · Oct 07, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

For those who say: w00t no more iway! Well, dont be so sure about that. When playing today I've already seen quite some old school iway (3 wars, trapper, taint and order).

We just have to wait till Nightfall to see if 6v6 is going to change something. Untill then it'll be: vim, vim, vim, smite, smite, balanced. And in a week it'll be: iway, iway, iway, iway, vim, vim, vim, smite (euhm oh no, too much profane getting up from iway, help!) balanced.

Divinus Stella · Oct 07, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I tried 6v6 earlier, still feels more like rock/scissors/paper than any real form of competition, in 8v8 you had an answer to everything, well atleast balanced teams did, but with this 6v6 you cant really utilise as much, leaving you really weak to certain builds, its also hard to get interrupts/WB speed and specific build counters into a team of 6, theres not much build flexibility at all, which is what i felt guildwars needed more of, especially since its adding another pure support role in with the next chapter.

I did notice that was more people playing tonite, but id give that another week or so before HA starts to fall short of players in a drastic way.

Ill give the 6v6 another bash over the weekend before i give up on it, but i found it hard to get any motivation to play, usually i cant get enough HA.

Kry Onicle · Oct 07, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Past few hours, whilst being in ID districts, all Ive seen is people begging for money, beggin to get into r9+ groups, flaming about who has the W/E/Mes/Mo etc build. All in all, HA id's have turned into Lions arch eu 1.

EDIT - also, since then ive seen several people trying to buy r3+accounts for ecto's. yay anet

Punji · Oct 07, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

This comes from a member of a blood-spike guild. I am actually pretty happy with the change, I was getting pretty bored of bspike, but until not I was forced to run it because we win halls more or less daily. Bspike is definitely harder to run now, although we can still get some wins and maybe win halls once a week or so. Right now it is a bit of a shock not being able to win as much as before, but in a few weeks the good players should be able to adjust and the still win. This change hurts only the ones that are too specialized and don;t have the perseverance to go into other professions and skills. Although I might not be able to get to the next rank as soon as i was planning, thanks Anet. ... Oh and we can still do the old bspike in gvg and get some champion pts in the process.

Minus Sign · Oct 07, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

We just have to wait till Nightfall to see if 6v6 is going to change something.

I keep hearing that as the new argument for 6v6. First it was "we get new maps so you don't know". Now its "wait until Nightfall, then we'll be sure".

Seriously people; we know better if we think about it. Yes; Nightfall will introduce a host of new builds to go along with the old ones, just as Factions did. But with those new balances there will also be a slew of "gimmicks" revolving around paragon and dervish skills. Old gimmicks will resurface at the same time, taking use of new skills.

You've succeeded in doing nothing to HA but reducing the size of the groups envolved, making double team games feel like TA and turned altar matches into a gimped AB. We had these already; why do we need them in HA???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kry Onicle

Past few hours, whilst being in ID districts, all Ive seen is people begging for money, beggin to get into r9+ groups, flaming about who has the W/E/Mes/Mo etc build. All in all, HA id's have turned into Lions arch eu 1.

QFT in more ways than one. Huge improvment.

Patrograd · Oct 07, 2006, 10:51 AM // 10:51

The fact is that something radical needed to be done to HA, it was a broken concept, the maps were broken, the builds were broken, everything about it was just subpar. You could win it with henchies ffs assuming you had a solid build otherwise. How many skills did a decent balanced team bring PURELY to cap and hold altars? 10? More than that? Skills which were basically passengers on every map but the altars. How can that be possible? Broken imo. I dont see how it can be that you have 10 or more skills out of 64 that you dont really need most of the time.

Is this the right change, the right fix? I dont know, but I think that instead of just moaning it might be good for all those serious hardcore HA types to actually come forwards and say HOW it should have been fixed. I always find it difficult to take people seriously who only moan and dont offer a viable solution, and leaving HA as it was was never a viable solution.

The 6v6 weekend was kind of interesting. It made a change to have to go into HA after agonising over every slot on the bar instead of just throwing together a cookie cutter build, and having to think a little bit instead of just following exactly the same routines time after time and map, map after map after map, where the game was often decided before the gates even opened in an endless mindless game of rock paper scissors at the higher levels where if you had rock and they had paper then there was nothing, absolutely nothing you could realistically do (assuming a similar level of competence) to swing the match in your favour, no matter how well you played.

As I say, I dont know if 6v6 is the answer to this and its probably way to early to say for sure until a new meta emerges, but the fact remains that something radical needed to be done.

Anyone have a better solution? One that makes this a format where genuine player ability wins games, where play>build?

Thanas · Oct 07, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

The mechanics of GW dictate that you must set a build before play, therefore on some level build will effect the outcome of any given PVP engagement. However I do believe skill is required to run a build well. Without changing the mechanics of GW, you will not be able to change this build orientated play. The best you can hope to do is shift emphasis of play.

I think with the recent introduction of 6v6 we will see a greater number of balanced builds to cope with this rock, paper, scissor effect. A balanced build will have a better chance of withstanding what other builds can throw at them. This will help propel PVP and GW in the direction it should be going, which is one where you are rewarded for skilful play and not for copying some build off wiki. I also think this is the right move for PVP, since it will help balance the game with the release of NF, which is probably what was originally intended.

And I entirely agree with the last poster, instead of just complaining, why don't those people opposed to 8v8 come up with some alternative solution other than 6v6. And don't say we should keep 8v8, since with the release of nightfall it is likely that 8v8 will simply not be viable.

s w o r d y · Oct 07, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

build designing for 6v6 is actually bringing the "fun" back into HA, which has been missing for the best part of this year

iway, vim, b spike, for so long have dominated the majority of opponents you face in HA it stifled build development. Not anymore.

phasola · Oct 07, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

build designing for 6v6 is actually bringing the "fun" back into HA, which has been missing for the best part of this year

it's anything but fun, esp the new EXCITING map changes, it has the RA feeling :<

luilui · Oct 07, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

The fact is that something radical needed to be done to HA, it was a broken concept, the maps were broken, the builds were broken, everything about it was just subpar. You could win it with henchies ffs assuming you had a solid build otherwise.

Is this the right change, the right fix? I dont know, but I think that instead of just moaning it might be good for all those serious hardcore HA types to actually come forwards and say HOW it should have been fixed. I always find it difficult to take people seriously who only moan and dont offer a viable solution, and leaving HA as it was was never a viable solution.

The 6v6 weekend was kind of interesting. It made a change to have to go into HA after agonising over every slot on the bar instead of just throwing together a cookie cutter build, and having to think a little bit instead of just following exactly the same routines time after time and map, map after map after map, where the game was often decided before the gates even opened in an endless mindless game of rock paper scissors at the higher levels where if you had rock and they had paper then there was nothing, absolutely nothing you could realistically do (assuming a similar level of competence) to swing the match in your favour, no matter how well you played.

As I say, I dont know if 6v6 is the answer to this and its probably way to early to say for sure until a new meta emerges, but the fact remains that something radical needed to be done.

Anyone have a better solution? One that makes this a format where genuine player ability wins games, where play>build?

I do not agree with you at all. People are moaning here is because there is nothing we can do, Anet do not listen (or they only listen to PvE players). If you check the other posts there are plently of suggestions there, like new maps ideas ... etc. But did Anet read those? Or actually consider them? Well, the "exciting" map change tells u everything.

I bet they didn't even spend 30 min thinking about it. "Well, people complain that scarred earth is too long let's put a lever there so they can gank each other and it'll be faster." So gg to all well known players and guilds, they'll be ganked every single time.

Also i don't believe that in the old 8v8 HA it is rock-paper-scissor game, i've never felt that way, and i have no idea why would you said that. When i play with a decent team using a decent build, we can go through all maps and defeat all different builds, and if we lost there's always a reason like infuser's a bit slow for one or two spike, someone over extended a bit, ghostly interrupted an important skill at an critical moment, retarded body blocker moved, in another word if we lose it's to do with our skill. Since i don't know where u coming from i can't really argue.

And imo 6v6 is not the answer, for example, if they want to get rid of BS (which i dont want to see, i think BS is good build, just that it's overused). Why can't they put in a map, say after UW, that BS has a disadvantage, e.g. a relic map with a npc constantly spamming fertile, no spike for BS, and gg to balance that has wb, and foes. So if ppl want to run BS, they need to spike through fertile, or be able to run, or can't go pass the 2nd map, that'll get rid of BS just the every good one can stay. Simply reducing the team size in order to make BS less efficient is one of the answer, but it's an lazy answer showing u anet havent spent more than 30s thinking about it.

It is obvious that anet can improve HA with new maps and it's more obvious that they dont mo**er f**king want to.

They want to bring new players, but new players cant compete with people that've been playing for 18 months, and they introduced this ganking system so well known guilds will get ganked, and make it all down to luck. Seriously gfg.

I really hope there will be an Anet representative repling this thread, tell us what they think about our complaints. All Gaile Gray talks about is pve rubbish. There are two posts about this change in the "Game and Dev Tracker" broad and guess what? Both were locked. Awesome isnt it.

Thanas · Oct 07, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

I expect both dev threads were locked because the vast majority of people feel the need to be abusive and have difficulty forming proper sentences with a semblance of meaning.

Mental Leteci · Oct 07, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by s w o r d y

iway, vim, b spike, for so long have dominated the majority of opponents you face in HA it stifled build development. Not anymore.

No,it dominated new and unexperienced players who were dominated by other good players who didn't run gimmick builds which means that those people who were losing to blood spike,vimway etc. before will lose now as well.

luilui · Oct 07, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I expect both dev threads were locked because the vast majority of people feel the need to be abusive and have difficulty forming proper sentences with a semblance of meaning.

This is understandable when u see some rubbish changes to the game and u feel ur money wasted.

Thanas · Oct 07, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Gimmick builds have inherent weaknesses that can easily be exploited.
Vimway - keep moving, evade warriors, avoid trapped routes, avoid bridges.
Bspike - remove weakness, move out of cast range, lure to open space.
With the new update gimmick builds will be harder to run as there will be less dmg output and hopefully we will see more balanced builds in Halls. Whether this will move new players away from cookie cutter builds is debateable though.

Thanas · Oct 07, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

This is understandable when u see some rubbish changes to the game and u feel ur money wasted.

No its not understandable. Yes you can be angry, but its possible to be angry and civilised.

Ado · Oct 07, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I keep hearing that as the new argument for 6v6. First it was "we get new maps so you don't know". Now its "wait until Nightfall, then we'll be sure".

I didn't write that to justify the introduction of 6vs6, it was more an expression of my hope that something will change then. But as I already wrote on page 7 of this thread the current trend make changes very unlikely when it comes to gimmickbuilds.

After 2 days of playing I'm feeling a bit divided towards 6vs6. In 1 way I like it a lot cause of new stuff to try out (although that was also possible of course in 8vs8) and I also like the fast matches and groupforming. But on the other hand I really miss 8vs8, especially cause of gamestyle reasons. For now playing 6vs6 is OK for me, but on the long term I'd like to see 8vs8 coming back again for various reasons which have all been mentioned in this thread already.

Pitty though they removed Burial Mounds, it was a fun map to play IMO.

But let us all keep on expressing our opinions. Anet claims to listen to its audience so who knows, there might come some changes which will make lots of people happy (reintroducing 8vs8?

)

But 1 thing I totally disagree with, is that 6vs6 makes HA more accesable for new players. The partysize has nothing to do with that. Making a guild/friendslist of dedicated players and keep on playing together the whole time is the key to succes IMO. This goes for both unranked and ranked players. In general, pugs are never succesfull in HA so why even bother making a pugteam? The only reason why I occasionially join a pugteam, is cause I want to get to know new players and possibly make some new friends.

Furthermore, a guild is more likely to try out new stuff than a pugteam cause ppl wont rage after a single loss (which nearly always happens when playing with pugs).

The topguilds we know now didnt become so good in a single day. They also had to get used to eachothers playingstyle etc. Unranked guilds can become just as succesfull as ranked ones. It might take a bit more time, but if ppl are dedicated enough and willing to learn and invest in eachother they will be.

In other words: dont use rank as an excuse for not being able to play in HA, there are enough possibilities, nomatter if it's 8vs8, 6vs6 or even 10vs10.

Thanas · Oct 07, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

But 1 thing I totally disagree with, is that 6vs6 makes HA more accesable for new players. The partysize has nothing to do with that. Making a guild/friendslist of dedicated players and keep on playing together the whole time is the key to succes IMO. This goes for both unranked and ranked

6v6 makes HA more accesible to guilds, not any old PUG. As you pointed out guild players are unlikely to rage on each other, and they will play together on a regular basis, eventually getting used to each others style of play. For some guilds 6 players are easier to gather than 8, thus 6v6 will make HA more accesable to those guilds.

Vaga · Oct 07, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Burial mounds was a pretty good map imo, especially in 6v6 it felt like it was actually a good size map. I can understand that some people would be frustrated because fame is pretty difficult to come by atm, the second map requires luck to go your way in some aspects, and at the end of it when your like "wow that was fairly intense", you get the little message saying somthing like "Congratulations you just won 2 fame". Next map you have to beat another 2 teams, for a massive 3 fame. 2 teams means that theres a reasonable chance you will lose no matter how good you are. For example the teams could be equally as good but one of them could have got morale and have all their sigs whilst you only have 1, leaving you at a disadvantage... or one of the teams could have the counter to your build (I have yet to see a build that actually has a counter for everything).

Theres also not really any holding, sure some people win a couple of times but it's not because they have some sweet build that can hold its just because luck went their way a couple of times and they ended up winning. The maps haven't been improved like I thought they would, whilst Ha is definently a lot more fun, I think it's unfair to people who are going to keep using their rank as a way to get into better groups as it is going to take them so much longer to improve their rank now compared to the old system.

The conclusion I've come to is that HA is definently a lot more fun, but the maps have made it a lot more difficult to come across fame, and have made getting to halls based on a lot of things going your way rather than the stronger teams overcoming the weaker ones.

Burton2000 · Oct 07, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Best holding build ive seen so far was 2 bonders,2 monks,1 smiter,1 warrior. Very high defence but how it gets to halls im a bit puzzled.

Y O U Lo Se · Oct 07, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

In otherwards, you weren't around to watch the D/Mo (Demo lol) insanity going on in HA.

Full Teams of D/Mos using CoP with those "When Enchant ends" effects......

Yeah, that again would really spell the end for HA in 8v8 -_-

You don't get my point, lowering the amount of players sure lowers the amount of dmg, so it does for the opponents dmg and healing, it just doesnt make sense, demo's could still pwn in 6v6.