Curse

Loq · Oct 05, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

It are we, the players who are totally responsible for this change made by Anet. We keep on sticking to our gimmickbuilds forcing Anet to take drastic measures. If we wanna see changes, we gotta go play new and different builds. If we do not change our mentality in this, 6vs6 will in time face the same problem as 8vs8 does now: 3 or 4 gimmickbuilds dominating HA.

Wrong, it is Anet problem not ours. We bought the game and play it the way we want it.

Anet has fail to balance the game proprely and they took decitions to keep certain builds. They decide to keep IWAY and keep all the spikes alive and by doing this they cornerd balanced builds to have the same buidls again and again.

As a balanced you need a warder and your 3 monks, so you are left with 4 players for the rest, but when ranger spirit screw caster like no tomorrow with nature and QZ, what can you do, but keep the same counters again and again.

So it is not the players, but Anet failure to balance the game. As far I'm concern, I dont care 6v6 or 8v8, it is going to be the same thing, newbi players are not going to beat strong players!!! LOL

What is going to happen, just like the end of the event, strong teams will dominate the game as usual and you will have a larger number of r10+ teams now, making HA harder once the noobs leave HA after 1-3 weeks.

HA was allready extremlly competitive (more than gvg IMO), you win 1-2 consecutives in HA and bang you have to fight a r7+ to r11+ team allready, averague teams struggle with this, at the event just because we had 5 times more players, it was easy to farm fame, so many crappy teams, but here there is no double fame and the newbi teams will leave faster when they realize they cant fame.

Basicly HA is going to become more competive and harder, what is good, I just hope we find more than 3-4 builds, thats the worry.

We allready have: VIMWAY, Condition degen with and without NR and Smith, hopefully it will bring more builds soon.

Most Feared · Oct 05, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Number 2 and 3 completely contradict with your angry rant. Getting rid of IWAY = good thing. Slower fame = good thing. Doesn't that mean higher rank might actually mean something more than just being able to count to three or click IWAY?

rank hasnt meant anything for months, because anybody can IWAY to r9 in a matter of a month easily. the damage is already done on that end. slower fame isnt a good thing, you still have mass skips due to lack of players, so you get 2-3 maps before going to halls, winning and getting MAYBE a hefty 6 fame from it, if you get lucky and hold 6v12 (most likely not to happen) you get a whole 8 fame. thats about the degree of which the better than average fame run will be.

Patccmoi · Oct 05, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Most Feared

1.) It pigeonholes you into running x amount of builds. In case you dont remember the double fame weekend, there was nothing but smite, vimway, and condition builds almost exclusively. So creative and fun!

That's funny, cause in the weekend we beat quite a bit of top guilds (including WM/EvIL running a balanced pressure and tons of NR/Tranq ranger pressure teams) with a build mixing Ritualists and Necros with Flesh Golem, and held halls using Assassins. So much for no creativity, maybe you just don't see that actually you CAN be creative, and imo it works better in 6v6 than 8v8 because you don't have as strong gimmicks to take into account when making a build (honestly a LOT of your skills are pretty much forced on you when you have to counter bloodspike, iway, vimway, rspike... you might say you have more skill slots, but you also have more 'forced' ones because you won't beat something like Bloodspike without having some skills designed nearly specifically against it, and you won't hold a good IWAY team's pressure with only 1 ward). Don't wait for others to do it for you, actually be creative and you might find out that a -lot- is possible in 6v6. Especially if maps change (but can't say anything about this atm).

Yes, you saw tons of vimway in the preview... but i don't remember seeing much at all past Broken Tower.

EDIT: As for 2-3 maps before going to halls... sorry but i disagree here. You can't say that right now. Yes, some of the current HA hardcore might leave, but i also know tons of people who will finally go back to HA, and i expect overall an increase of HA's population, because it will be more accessible. Honestly i prefer facing more bad teams in the first maps but actually doing most maps than having a 'higher competition' but actually having a straight skip to halls at least once every night i play (which i'll admit is not often since a while, i got bored out of the place)

Lena A · Oct 05, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

why is this change better for beginner :

teams of 6 => less time to create a group => better for casual

more groups and also more groups of beginners.

=> more chances for beginners to face some other beginners on the first maps => more fame for them (at least in the beginning)

For the rest, good players will still rules HA

Most of the players will still copy the easy to play/fast fame farm builds

even if I don't really enjoy this change, it don't really bother me, until it won't make HA similar to TA (I hate TA)

and now :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loq

HA was allready extremlly competitive (more than gvg IMO)

QFLaugh

Poison Ivy · Oct 05, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

To Most Feared

1) The double fame weekend was a oppertunity for HA people to get some fast fame, they didn't waste time making new builds and trying this and that out.

Just make more 6 man builds yourself dude, IT'S NOT HARD YOU LAZY AS$.

Hybrid Theory · Oct 05, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

anet made 6 man to give new HA players a chance

Hybrid Theory · Oct 05, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

to catch up that is

Byron · Oct 05, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

To those of you who are infatuated with the old system:

Start a GvG team - they've even added a rank system to make the number people feel special. Clearly, it's not terribly hard to get to the top 100 running ranger spike, blood spike, IWAY, or any of the other familiar HA builds.

To those who say 6-man teams limit creativity:

Load of malarky. Since when have HA teams been creative? There are certain builds that do certain things, and you put them together to make a team. In this build, we're running 2 migraines. In this one, lets do 1 migraine and a choking gas. Don't forget the oath shot with symbiosis and fertile.

At least 6-man gets us away from the dreadfully stable 3-monk backline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thezela

Or simply changing it to a single objective other than hold an altar would freshen up the game for a while, because you would have to see new builds geared towards an entirely different objective.

In a thread a while ago, Ensign idenitified the source of the "gimmicky" HA builds to be the last map, hall of heroes. Because you have to hold a central altar for the duration of the match, it becomes not a matter of playing to win, but of survival. I think he said something like: the best HA build is 8 monks. It addressed a lot of the issues brought up here, and I wish I could find the thread. Maybe JR- can help me out.

Bankai · Oct 05, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I think they should add a system for grouping fights. Higher ranked people should fight higher ranked people. Take the average fame or rank of a group (I'd do rank) and make people that are near each other fight each other.

That way, people will be fighting for rank 1s and 2s.

ap47 · Oct 05, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

In a thread a while ago, Ensign idenitified the source of the "gimmicky" HA builds to be the last map, hall of heroes. Because you have to hold a central altar for the duration of the match, it becomes not a matter of playing to win, but of survival. I think he said something like: the best HA build is 8 monks. It addressed a lot of the issues brought up here, and I wish I could find the thread. Maybe JR- can help me out.

Here it is: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=141051

vapor311 · Oct 05, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

As for 2-3 maps before going to halls... sorry but i disagree here. You can't say that right now. Yes, some of the current HA hardcore might leave, but i also know tons of people who will finally go back to HA, and i expect overall an increase of HA's population, because it will be more accessible. Honestly i prefer facing more bad teams in the first maps but actually doing most maps than having a 'higher competition' but actually having a straight skip to halls at least once every night i play (which i'll admit is not often since a while, i got bored out of the place)

And here in lies the point. People will certainly leave HA because of the changes. They'll move on to other gametypes or other games. Even if there is a population explosion as a result of the changes it will die down and we'll eventually be back to the same amount of players as we have now. The difference is that the Tournament format is much more viable in a 6 man format than 8 man. Even if you have the same amount of people playing, you have 33% more teams playing. More teams playing means that more maps are being played, which means less skips. The fewer the chance of skipping, the more likely you have to design your build around being able to successfully navigate all of the different gametypes. Making a build that is awesome at holding altars isn't going to help you that much when you're running relics. Granted there will always be Hall skips and people playing to do so but one can hope that it becomes less and less common as an occurrence.
Really what I think will ultimately make or break how successful the changes to HA are, are the map changes and not the move to a 6 man format. The gameplay of HA will be as stagnant as ever if the maps are merely shrunk to accomodate smaller team sizes. I remain cautiously optimistic that the map changes will be signifcant enough to really mix things up a bit but with the launch of Nightfall less than 1 month away I do fear that not enough time would have been spent on the redesigns. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can all be wowed tomorrow.

Mental Leteci · Oct 05, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by vapor311

And here in lies the point. People will certainly leave HA because of the changes. They'll move on to other gametypes or other games. Even if there is a population explosion as a result of the changes it will die down and we'll eventually be back to the same amount of players as we have now.

I already sold my account. GL HF to all you nabs here

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

WOW. You already sold your account? What if they change it back? what if it turned out that 6 man grew on you once the meta clears away from vim?

Legendary Shiz · Oct 05, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

I already sold my account. GL HF to all you nabs here

Easily the worst thing I've heard all day.

Side note...where you able to get a grand for it? I've seen a r11 go for like 800$. You're r13 are you not? That's gotta be 1k+

sno · Oct 05, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

If this single change makes all the elitest assholes rage quit the game permanently, one word can sum up how I feel. Bye!

I personally think 6v6 frees up a ton of creativity, and forces people to actually think (at least for awhile) about how they're going to run their backline. Right now you can devote entire characters to nothing but single objectives (ie. holding) because you have 7 others that can easily muscle you through the rest of the maps. With only 6 people you have to delegate each thing much more carefully, and each skill is actually important (things like choking gas were never important, nor did they really do anything besides make bad interupters into decent ones. Choking was really just a way for practiced/seeking guys to have something to do before they got to the altar maps.)

I could go on, but it clearly won't get into the thick heads of most of the elitists, as the way they learned must be the only good way, naturally. One thing I find very funny is that people keep mentioning VIM as if it'll take over. If you've played against 8v8 and 6v6 vim, it's obvious that 6v6 is much easier to beat (not that either of them are hard at all against good teams, but 8v8 does have a chance in winning against uncoordinated teams, where as 6v6 really doesn't.)

Also about the arguments that holding with 6 people is so much harder than holding with 8, have you considered that you're also going to be fighting against only 12 people instead of the usual 16? Granted since those teams are almost always holding builds (and therefore overly defensive) it's not often hard, but the balance remains the same.

Patccmoi · Oct 05, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I personally think 6v6 frees up a ton of creativity, and forces people to actually think (at least for awhile) about how they're going to run their backline. Right now you can devote entire characters to nothing but single objectives (ie. holding) because you have 7 others that can easily muscle you through the rest of the maps. With only 6 people you have to delegate each thing much more carefully, and each skill is actually important (things like choking gas were never important, nor did they really do anything besides make bad interupters into decent ones. Choking was really just a way for practiced/seeking guys to have something to do before they got to the altar maps.)

I fully agree with that! I also think 6v6 actually allows for more creativity, even if it seems weird to see first since you lose skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I could go on, but it clearly won't get into the thick heads of most of the elitists, as the way they learned must be the only good way, naturally. One thing I find very funny is that people keep mentioning VIM as if it'll take over. If you've played against 8v8 and 6v6 vim, it's obvious that 6v6 is much easier to beat (not that either of them are hard at all against good teams, but 8v8 does have a chance in winning against uncoordinated teams, where as 6v6 really doesn't.)

Good teams had a very easy time beating ViM in 6v6, but bad PuG got really destroyed by it actually, because bad PuG = bad monks, and in 6v6 without a 3 monks backline having infinite energy from Channeling bad groups couldn't really handle ViM. But ViM WAS really easy to beat from any organized team, and you didn't need to actually devote any particular skill for it, just good kiting, wand interrupting, take out spirits that are too annoying and run around while you pick them off one by one. It might force people to learn how to kite and casters might stop sitting still while a warrior is hacking them down because their 3 monks can keep them alive and have infinite energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Also about the arguments that holding with 6 people is so much harder than holding with 8, have you considered that you're also going to be fighting against only 12 people instead of the usual 16? Granted since those teams are almost always holding builds (and therefore overly defensive) it's not often hard, but the balance remains the same.

Can't agree with that. Holding with 6 was extremely hard overall and required quite a bit of luck, because you couldn't really have a holding build. You didn't have chars dedicated to it, and with a much weaker backline 2 teams ganging on you was much harder to handle. But i'll say though that it was MUCH more fun and intense games, and i don't think that rotation on halls is actually a bad thing. If you hold 3-4 games in 6v6, it's actually impressive, while sometimes you can hold 10 games in 8v8 and actually it's not cause you had a build fully designed for holding halls.

Ensign · Oct 05, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

The goal of this change is to make HA a higher quality, deeper PvP format than it is. It is supposed to be the highest level of competition for pick-up teams in Guild Wars - right now, it is widely considered to be behind Team Arena in terms of the quality of play that it promotes, and that's pretty sad.

The reason to not change HA is because it has its own following. There is a subset of their playerbase that really enjoys HA as it is, and making radical changes to the format is just going to upset them. Especially when you consider that many of those players are serious fame farmers - changing up their format is only going to make that goal more difficult.

The reason to change HA...is because it really is just a place to farm fame now. People don't play HA for serious PvP competition - again, if you're looking for that, you should be in TA over HA. You play it in order to get some fame to work that title, whether that means trying to get a few points through iWay or Blood Spike, or forming up a super holding team and trying to babysit Ghosts on the dais for several rounds. If you just want a fame factory, that's fine, but if, as a designer, you want HA to be a vibrant PvP format it is a pretty resounding failure.

Hence, the vote to upset a really rotten format, and the people who have learned to love it, and try and create something actually good. Sure, some people will quit the game in disgust. But hopefully the new HA will be an interesting enough format that people will want to play it on its merits.

Peace,
-CxE

Badboy Thrasher · Oct 05, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

They say this will introduce a whole new lot of people that hasn't done HA or other PvP than RA, I fear it's going to make it easier for the experienced people to kick the unexperienced ones asses...

mrs poor · Oct 05, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Some people are saying that this 6v6 creates creativity which imo is wrong. Its not that i disagree with changing hoh to 6v6 its just that it takes away Alot of creativity because think about.

You have 2 monks in a build and a warrior/thumper that leaves you with 24 skills to play with substract the rez sigs. Thats 21 skills you can play around with the create a build 21 skills out of the possible 8 prof(not counting warrior and monks). Thats without counting any defence skills which you will be forced to take to have any chance at holding even a little which means now you have 19 skills to play with. So 19 skills whats the best possibilty of course degen so its all going to be condition degen 1 apply 1 melebrus and 1 spirit spammer with fertile+symb(the 2 defence skills out of the 21). Wow great so all your going to see is condition builds with no creativity.

/sorry for rant

phasola · Oct 05, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

They say this will introduce a whole new lot of people that hasn't done HA or other PvP than RA, I fear it's going to make it easier for the experienced people to kick the unexperienced ones asses...

what prevents u from entering tombs now ? rank discrimination ? deal with it
u think that after 6 v 6 is introduced teams consisting of new players will get past uw ?