Curse

RandomEngy · Nov 07, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I agree. You certainly can give up a skill and bring Comfort. It's taking a huge risk when you don't.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

I agree. You certainly can give up a skill and bring Comfort. It's taking a huge risk when you don't.

Here's the thing. Not a lot of teams actually go for your pet unless they've already killed you.

The monk in this build obviously knows that the pets are crucial, and he'll throw a few heals the pets way because of their importance.

Yes, a rez for your pet is nice. But with this build matches shouldn't be any longer than 1-2 minutes. So of course losing out on your pet can be tough, but it's not the end of your run. Most of the dps from this build comes from the rangers, not the pet. It's the added dps of the pet that makes it so deadly. However, a thumper without a pet still has a very nice, high dps. IMO, I like bringing another offensive skill into a highly aggressive build.

RandomEngy · Nov 08, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

I guess I'm biased because I play a Blazing Finale paragon, and go after the thumpers. The constant fire on the pet (who isn't being targeted) either puts strain on the monk or knocks out a good bit of DPS from their team if they don't bring Comfort.

SnipiousMax · Nov 08, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Since RaO doesn't work without a pet anymore... a pet rez is almost essential.

VODA... · Nov 08, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by VODA...

Would it hurt the build if one would replace mokele smash with comfort animal on the ranger thumpers?

I think it doesnt, but maybe i'm overlooking something..

LOL i quoted myself!!

I've been playing the thumper build a few times without comfort animal and I found my pet killed several times, so i put in comfort as a pet heal/res. I wasnt too bothered about losing some dps because of having a dead pet, but it sucks when you cant use Bestial mauling because Wolfie is belly up..

Anyway, Bestial mauling (Dazed) combined with the faster attack rate of Rampage as one is great for interupting casters, so i really like my Wolfie to stay healthy and strong.. not to mention keep his fur soft and shiny..

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

I've never honestly used comfort as a heal for my pet except maybe on an annihilation map where everybody was dead and I was waiting for a rez and the goof ran into the lava.

I'm assuming the hole RaO doesn't work without a pet just changed today/last night? I haven't logged on since yesterday super time.

VODA... · Nov 08, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I'm assuming the hole RaO doesn't work without a pet just changed today/last night? I haven't logged on since yesterday super time.

I heard that too, havent confirmed it yet for myself..

If that's true, the use of Comfort animal in a RaO thumper is even more required..

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Yeah, it was "fixed" in the last update.

Well, to me now comfort is a lot more considerable for use. However, it doesn't really NEED to be in the build. Like I said, this is a steamrolling build, and you should be taking down your opponents very quickly. I'll always like having aggresive skills, in an aggressive build. However, now that you need your pet for RaO to work I think it makes it a much more viable option than before. Not *quite* essential, but a very VERY viable option to have. To me, this just means the monks got to watch the pets a bit more. I must be spoiled by good monks, because even with no pet rez my pets rarily died.

Divineshadows · Nov 08, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

To me, this just means the monks got to watch the pets a bit more.

Monks watching the pets more doesn't help when you go up against scalable condition spreading from:

barbed trap
dust trap pulses
searing flames
apply poison on a cripshot
melandru's arrows

For instance, a cripshot does a whole lot more damage when spreading poison to 6 opposing team members (counting the pets) than just 4. Same for the bleeding from melandru's. Searing flames and traps function in much the same way in that they will almost always hit the ranger and its pet. Your monk is in big trouble if searing flames or traps hit both rangers and both pets. Constant burning from searing flames spam takes down pets really fast.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Well. I went into TA again, and brought comfort. When my pet died, I tested it and RaO still casted when he was dead.

ZenRgy · Nov 08, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I've never seen a high need for expertise with rampage thumpers or thumpers in general, I run 14 beast, 12 hammer 8 exp, just bring a zealous hammer and you're set.

I don't relaly run Mokele smash, I would definitely swap it out for comfort animal because pets add alot of DPS to the thumper.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 08, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

keekee

Your post makes me laugh zenergy.

A zealous hammer? You obviously don't have much war/meele experience.

And to be honest, mokele smash is one of the last skills I'd want to give up in this build. It adds a ton of extra damage, and the extra two strokes of adren means so much. I run a chain, and it basically takes down the person everytime.

iblow --> hammer bash -- > crushing --> mokele --> iblow --> hammer bash

It works very nice. Mokele helps you keep up the kd, making it much harder on that character to use any defensive skills.

supaet · Nov 08, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

try add in protector's strike, it rocks

The Muffen Man · Nov 08, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

[QUOTE=Zui]Rage Thumper
Ranger/Warrior

12 Hammer Mastery
10+3+1 Beast Mastery
10+2 Expertise

Tell me how you get this attribute spread?
I think what you mean is:
12 Hammer mastery
10+3+1 Beast Mastery
8+2 Expertise
which gives you a max of 450 health
if you run 9 expertise you get a man of 485

VODA... · Nov 08, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Well. I went into TA again, and brought comfort. When my pet died, I tested it and RaO still casted when he was dead.

But did you got the attack rate - and speed bonus from RaO? Maybe you can still cast Rao when pets dead, but the effects won't work..

Havent tried it, so im just thinking out loud..

Drewfense · Nov 08, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

It is kinda off topic, but I found the update to RaO very interesting... By preventing it from working without a pet, ANET recognized that the skill was overpowered enough that just working on yourself (much less both you and your pet) makes it worth bringing...yet they don't nerf the skill.

The whole folly of RaO is starting to annoy me. Alpha repeatidly showed Izzy it was imba and now every other team is running it, but anet still for the most part ignores it. I just hope they do something soon because it will be a very bland season/playoffs if every other build continues to be thumpers.

RandomEngy · Nov 08, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

First off, zealous is an excellent choice for a thumper. You're constantly attacking quickly and get a good energy stream from zealous to fuel RaO and your attack skills.

Second, ANet likes to group up all the skill changes into one patch, but will spread out bug fixes in smaller patches. The most recent update was meant as a bug fix, not balance nerf to the skill. I imagine we'll see an update in the not-too-distant future that will fix some overpowered Nightfall skills.

Drewfense · Nov 08, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Yea the group up skill updates because it is a lot of work to institute (they have to institute for all the traders, graphics, blah blah)...I am just hoping they don't wait till after the tournament as they often do. It would be nice to get some variety again =/

ZenRgy · Nov 09, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

keekee

Your post makes me laugh zenergy.

A zealous hammer? You obviously don't have much war/meele experience.

Don't knock it until you try kthx. Yes Zealous hammers blow on a regular warrior but with Rampage thumper it's perfect, maybe you could bring something else - but I don't think you need such high expertise.

Zui · Nov 09, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by VODA...

Would it hurt the build if one would replace mokele smash with comfort animal on the ranger thumpers?

I think it doesnt, but maybe i'm overlooking something..

Now that Rampage as One has been fixed, it's seriously worth putting in the build IMHO.

Before Rampage as One was fixed, the reason no pet resurrect was included was because out of 12 glad points worth of games(~120+ Games), we had about eight pet deaths in total. Originaly, we did have Comfort Animal in there, it was removed after about 20 games because of how rarely our pets died, and the fact that they only died against teams that were running multiple Searing Flames eles, which were teams we rolled very quickly because no one on the opposing team kited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The build lacking pet rez gives it a front-loaded aspect. Given this, if I was in a competent team playing against this build my team's goals would be:

1. reduce enough of the two rampage thumpers' damage that they do not wipe my team.
2. put some degen on the pets
3. still pressuring the monk, mesmer, and rangers enough that the monk cannot afford to heal the pets

If these goals can be accomplished and you kill off both of the pets, then your team would likely win even if you have one less rez sig than they do.

In my opinion, this build would become more solid (albeit a bit weaker on the front side) by dropping mokele smash, irresistible blow, or bestial mauling for comfort animal. The selection of the skill to drop for comfort could differ between the two thumpers.

That's also how I have told my team to play against Thumpway several times when we faced it when we weren't running Thumpway ourselves. Interestingly enough, when we ran Thumpway we faced several high quality teams that never touched the pets, ever. The only teams that did so were fairly poor teams, and the only team out of those that beat us was a team with 3 hex-based meleehate charactars (in addition to having Backfire, Shame, and Malaise), this was before we had Expel Hexes, infact, it was the reason we added Expel into the build. Needless to say, I can't consider them a good team, because they did things like put Parasitic Bond on the Monk, then cover it with Faintheartedness, which they didn't put on either Thumper. That, and the fact that the game against them lasted about 10 minutes, and was extremely close, at the end both teams monks were down for good(res sigs burned), we had our Thumper and Meleehate guy still up, and they had their Spoil Victor guy and Spiteful Spirit guy still up.

I agree that even before the fix to Rampage as One, it would become stronger against good teams that played properly by bringing Comfort Animal. Sadly, we faced several quality teams that never touched the pets, [QQ], [BC], several [RA] and [res] teams included(There were several others, just I don't remember the tag, or they were non-guild teams).

As I've already noted, Comfort Animal was originaly in the build. I had intended to put it back in if people started dropping the pets because they realised we had absolutly no way to bring them back... Either way, with the fix to Rampage as One I'll certainly be adding it back in the build, because people should now realise that killing the pets is an even smarter move than it previously was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I smell greater than 200 attribute points.

Yeah, it should read:

10+1+3 Beast Mastery
8+2 Expertise
12 Hammer Mastery

It seems that when I changed the attributes for the first time, I didn't drop Expertise back down, but I increased Beast Mastery. Posting a build at 3am and then editing it at 3 am = loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblivix

Is there some difference in these two I'm not seeing?

Both Thumpers are currently(as you posted this, and as I'm posting this, although they're getting changed as soon as I'm finished posting) identical. Both are listed, instead of just doing [x2], because it is easier to read, and easier to change later incase I want to run slightly different bars.

Also, what Shiz said rings true. There are so many other ways you can run the build. You can add Disrupting Lunge, Brutal Strike, Distracting Blow, Protector's Strike, Bull's Strike, and Comfort Animal in there in place of other things, just to name a few. It'd be kind of pointless to list every way you can run two Rampage as One thumpers though, because then it wouldn't be a specific build, and would entail so many variations in Thumpers, Melee-hate, and Monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

I agree. You certainly can give up a skill and bring Comfort. It's taking a huge risk when you don't.

Before the change to Rampage as One, it really wasn't. As I've stated twice already in this post, it was originaly in there and removed because no descent teams ever went for the pets. It also wasn't amazingly scary loosing your pets against poor teams. I remeber one game against a Searing Flames(with two Monks no less) team that we lost a pet the first time, and the second time one Thumper was AFK the entire match, we still beat them in under two minutes, and didn't even loose a pet.

Since the change to Rampage as One, I agree that it's a much larger risk to run without it, and will be adding it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Since RaO doesn't work without a pet anymore... a pet rez is almost essential.

Agreed. It's only essential because good teams are now starting to kill the pets, though. It would have also been essential beforehand if good teams were killing the pets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Monks watching the pets more doesn't help when you go up against scalable condition spreading from:

barbed trap
dust trap pulses
searing flames
apply poison on a cripshot
melandru's arrows

For instance, a cripshot does a whole lot more damage when spreading poison to 6 opposing team members (counting the pets) than just 4. Same for the bleeding from melandru's. Searing flames and traps function in much the same way in that they will almost always hit the ranger and its pet. Your monk is in big trouble if searing flames or traps hit both rangers and both pets. Constant burning from searing flames spam takes down pets really fast.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

I've never seen a high need for expertise with rampage thumpers or thumpers in general, I run 14 beast, 12 hammer 8 exp, just bring a zealous hammer and you're set.

I don't relaly run Mokele smash, I would definitely swap it out for comfort animal because pets add alot of DPS to the thumper.

You don't run a Superior Beast Mastery? Because with a Superior Beast Mastery and a Minor Expertise you should be able to get 14 Beast 9 Expertise 12 Hammer Mastey.

Before the change to Rampage as One, since the pets were not being killed, they weren't dead, and as such, them not being dead meant they were still doing damage as if they were alive, because they were alive. Now that people are starting to pay attention to pets, Comfort Animal is a much better option.

As for the Zealous Hammer, I really don't think it's an amazing idea most of the time. I mean, I'll bring one on a Thumper now that I'm not limited to only two weapons, but I'll rarely use it, here are my reasons:

Under Rampage as One, Hammer swing speed is 1.166s. Base hammer swing speed is 1.75s. That means under Rampage as One, you swing 51 times in a minute, against a non-kiting target. That's 51 energy under absolutly ideal conditions, for only 20 energy lost! You net 31 energy! That's pretty good, right?

Unfortunately, in actual play against good teams, people kite, they even pre-kite and not only do they kite and pre-kite, but they bring meleehate, and use it too! So, let's assume they don't kite amazingly well, and don't have amazingly strong meleehate... So, you only fail to hit one out of three swings. But, you're still hitting 34 times a minute! That's a net gain of 14 energy! So, in this situation you have to ask yourself if the 14 energy is worth loosing that 170 damage from a Vampiric weapon, or the 75 points of Adrenaline you get from a Furious hammer mod, or the extra damage you might get from bypassing armor with an Ebon weapon. IMHO, it is not. Doubly so when you realise that against good teams with strong players that have good postitioning, kite, and pre-kite, in addition to having strong meleehate, you'll probalby hit less 2/3 of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaset

try add in protector's strike, it rocks

Protector's Strike is nice, I agree. The extra adrenaline from the faster attack, and added spike potential is nice. For this build though, I really like Mokele Smash better than Protector's Strike, here are my reasons:

Mokele Smash gives you 3 Adrenaline, and does +17 Damage. It only costs 5 Energy every 21.166s.

Protector's Strike can give you quite a bit more Adrenaline, and damage, but only if you can afford to spam it. You really can't if you're making the most out of your Irresistible Blow.

However, with that said, since I'm going to change around the Thumpers bars alittle due to the fix to Rampage as One, I was going to try and drop Irresistible Blow for Protector's Strike on one thumper.

[quote=The Muffen Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Rage Thumper
Ranger/Warrior

12 Hammer Mastery
10+3+1 Beast Mastery
10+2 Expertise

Tell me how you get this attribute spread?
I think what you mean is:
12 Hammer mastery
10+3+1 Beast Mastery
8+2 Expertise
which gives you a max of 450 health
if you run 9 expertise you get a man of 485

Yeah, I messed up when I first changed the attributes from 12 Beast Mastery 12 Expertise 12 Hammer Mastery to what should have been 14 Beast Mastery 10 Expertise 12 Hammer Mastery. Changed Beast Mastery, but didn't change Expertise =/

As for health:

I've been running two Vitae runes, which is +20 Health. I've also been using my headgear as +5 Health, since I don't really need any more energy... That gives me 475 Health. I really don't think I need more, and we haven't had any deaths at all on a Thumper due to them being spiked. Honestly, just having 450 Health would probably be fine too, there's just nothing else worthwhile for a rune with your attributes, condition reduction runes are essentialy out because they're not that needed, and you don't need a Wilderness or Marksmanship rune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

It is kinda off topic, but I found the update to RaO very interesting... By preventing it from working without a pet, ANET recognized that the skill was overpowered enough that just working on yourself (much less both you and your pet) makes it worth bringing...yet they don't nerf the skill.

The whole folly of RaO is starting to annoy me. Alpha repeatidly showed Izzy it was imba and now every other team is running it, but anet still for the most part ignores it. I just hope they do something soon because it will be a very bland season/playoffs if every other build continues to be thumpers.

I have to agree with this. Rampage as One is retarded, and deserves a nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

First off, zealous is an excellent choice for a thumper. You're constantly attacking quickly and get a good energy stream from zealous to fuel RaO and your attack skills.

Math please.

I remember you several months ago arguing that Touch Rangers were amazingly overpowered, and absolutly unstoppable in everything except GvG btw... So that helps to cement my belief that Zealous < Vampiric almost all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Don't knock it until you try kthx. Yes Zealous hammers blow on a regular warrior but with Rampage thumper it's perfect, maybe you could bring something else - but I don't think you need such high expertise.

Well, we agree that they're just not that hot on a Warrior at least. If you want to convince me that Zealous on a Rampage as One thumper is better than somthing else(at least most of the time) that you could run, you'll have to post math that proves it.

As for not *needing* higher Expertise, I ask you, why not? Your Thumpers at no real risk of death from getting spiked out in the Team Arenas enviroment running that Superior and Major rune. Doing so gives you a benefit. I don't see how you can argue against getting a tangible benefit when it costs you absolutly nothing. It's comparable to only having 185 Attribute Points, but being able to get the 15 more by clicking on an NPC once, and clicking a button once. You could argue that you don't 'need' those 15 more, but getting them doesn't cost you a thing, and gives you a benefit...

Oh, and the OP will be edited shortly.