Curse

Legendary Shiz · Nov 10, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I could live with 6v6 staying, but heroes have killed HA.

s w o r d y · Nov 10, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I could live with 6v6 staying, but heroes have killed HA.

and if you don't agree with that, i smack you

Bacon Goes Monk · Nov 10, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by s w o r d y

and if you don't agree with that, i smack you

/seconded. Still, I'd like 8v8 back. There's what, 10 professions now? Run 2 monks, that's 4 slots you can tinker with, and 10 profs available. You can barely fit anything in now...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

I DON'T LIKE HEROES IN PVP CAUSE IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE I AM PLAYING AN ON LINE GAME. IT TENDS TO FEEL LIKE I AM DOING PVE AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE I WOULDN'T HAVE BOUGHT GUILD WARS I WOULD BE PLAYING SOME GAME THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE AN INTERNET CONNECTION.

These retarded remarks that if you are losing against heroes it means you suck and quit complaining. I have yet to face a hero team that has beaten me and the pugs I am with. Except of course the "BROKEN" tower when its more about luck than skill in winning that map.

P.S - I have tried to speak with the PvE representative "Gaile Gray" in game about the issues but no offense she is quite ignorant when it comes to the PvP aspect. I wish anet would just fess up and agree they screwed up by limiting HA to 6v6 and then implementing heroes...

You sir, win the internet.

Easiest way to win broken tower? Cap first and pray your monks are having a good day.

Gaile Gray ignorant about PvP? Try completely retarded. No offense of course... And why would Anet admit they screwed up? They NEVER have when it compares to something this bad.

Them actually admitting they screwed up can compare to when they told me to update my graphics drivers when all 16 people in Dark Chambers err7'ed at once. Somehow that wasn't their fault either...

CHUIU · Nov 10, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I find that when I partner with 1 or 2 competent people, we win more matches then when I group with a full team of real people or just go with hero/hench. It certainly has enhanced things, but it hasn't killed co-operative play.

Either way, I would love to see an end to 6v6 and full hero/hench teams.

phasola · Nov 10, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Of course they'll never change it back to 8 v 8 or remove heroes. PvE carebears seem to love it. And of course they'll never admint they were wrong.

nooboguy · Nov 10, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

I play HA casually, both with a good guild team and with my children. Before posting I wanted to wait a while to see what effect Heroes would have on the game. I think now we've had a few weeks and you can see some more lasting effects. Here are my observations:

1) I do not think heroes affect the balance of an individual match. Good teams, played by real people, will generally wipe the floor with hero-heavy teams. Some of our best players are actually able to play a hero-heavy team (with only 1 or 2 human players) and win consistently, but mostly they are just going up against other hero-heavy teams. I don't believe our guild team has ever lost to a hero team.

2) It looks like the majority of teams out there at any given time are hero-heavy teams. Yesterday I played some casual games with the kids and out of 4 matches we encountered only one team with more than one human player.

3) since the majority of teams playing are hero-heavy, you can in fact be successful with a hero team. this of course increases the incentive for people to play them.

I support having heroes in HA, as it has always been difficult to find that last player to fill out the build. However, I think that playing against a hero-only or hero-heavy team is not fun. It is not really a challenge for experienced human teams, and much to my surprise I did not find it fun with my casual team. After having waited enough to see how heroes are being used I conclude that the game is shifting to hero-heavy or hero-only teams and that actually detracts from the fun of HA.

The game already provides a hero-only arena. We do not really need two. As far as providing 1.v.1 play, I think what people are asking for is literally single player arenas, not 6v6 with 2 humans and 10 bots.

6v6 should allow the formation of human teams relatively easy. The game could use an improved means of forming groups, but completely replacing humans players with heroes is not showing to be a good substitute.

My preferred solution would be to limit the number of heroes (and henchies) in HA to 1 or possibly 2, and introduce a better mechanism to advertise for party members

if you wanted to still leave open the option for players to bring full hero teams, you could introduce some sort of penalty that would make it counterproductive to bring too many heroes. I favor a 1 fame tax for every hero in a match, so that with three heroes you would have to win 3 matches before getting any fame.

I know Anet is listening and looking at how to change HA in the future. I think it is safe to say now that hero-heavy teams make HA less fun for most people.

phasola · Nov 10, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

The problem isn't beating the hero teams, the problem is that when you have 1 person + 5 AI that isn't PvP anymore...

Legendary Shiz · Nov 10, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Yeah, I honestly don't think anybody in this thread has ever complained about the difficulty level of heroway. We don't want to removed because it's too overpowered, it's just insanely boring to play against.

I've even played it, simply out of curiosity and it's almost worse than PvE.

Effendi Westland · Nov 10, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Nibelrund

I do think there are worse issues with HA now than heroways.
Played a bit last night, and if the opponent wasn't a heroway it was a holding build. In almost every match it was a pain to score kills, one team even had 3 monks (1 bonder) and 1 defensive emo... With 6vs6 or you run a holding build hoping to hold the altar as much as you can, or run an aggressive build that will prevent you from holding. Most teams go for the holding strategy, which results in 20 mins+ matches... What a pain... And the decreasing number of districts speaks for itself.

Remember the 40 min+ matches in 8v8?

But yes, I saw this last night too. In the 4 way map we faced two holding teams (ToP and sM), they were taking forever to score a kill and after 20 mins of waiting we decided to pick a color and kill their monks fully knowing that the other group would probably be impossible to kill for us.

Arya Nibelrund · Nov 10, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

To be honest I liked the 6vs6 at the beginning. It was nice to try a new format. But it got boring quite fast. With at least 2 spots taken by monks fitting a wide variety of skills is not an option anymore. Fighting a long match is fine with me, but in 6vs6 there are really very few things you can actually do while battling that it gets silly after 5 minutes. You know immediatly that the match will be won only if somebody gets an err7 or a monk falls asleep on the keyboard or someone resigns before he dies of boredom. Anyway, this is going off-topic.
Heroes are teh suck, but pvers like them, though not every pver will turn to HA. A nice way to ruin the game for both.

JR · Nov 10, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Nibelrund

You know immediatly that the match will be won only if somebody gets an err7 or a monk falls asleep on the keyboard or someone resigns before he dies of boredom. Anyway, this is going off-topic.

The game simply needs to encourage people to run less defensive builds in HA.

Lord Mendes · Nov 10, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The game simply needs to encourage people to run less defensive builds in HA.

The only way i can see that hapening is if they change the actual hall of heroes to something other than an altar map.

phasola · Nov 10, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

The game simply needs to encourage people to run less defensive builds in HA.

That's not gonna happen when anytime soon. Before NF, you could get 2 interupt rangers and take care of the enemy ghosts, but with Song of Concentration that's not viable anymore. Not to mention the introduction of 6 v 6.
Playing vs heroway feels like playing vs a boss & his accolytes. At least in PvE you get an elite

.

Servant of Kali · Nov 10, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Ok here's newsflash - i love HeroWay.

Now, i dont play it. I dont even play HA. I dislike HA and stopped playing it a year ago. So why do i like heroway?

Well it simply shows that HA design (even though it was good in the beginning) is very bad. Sorry but there are no Heroes in GvG are they? I dont see any in observer mode. HA maps on the other hand are dull, they never interested me. Tactical level was very low and it was usually "interrupt the ghostly". Booooring. When i won HoH, i thought i would be thrilled and blabla but guess what - it was nothing special. Winning a GvG match against halfdecent team is more thrilling experience to me than winning HoH.

HA maps (at least unlike those in TA) heavily limit the number of builds you can run, which actually supports gimmicks and copycutter wars.

Those who complain that they have to fight Heroes and not real people, and have to fight it often - please explain to me what's the difference between IWAY and Heroway? IWAY (and Vimway) was too frequent as well. Most people i know got sick n tired of playing iway and quit HA. So how is Heroway different? Oh wait, you play against bots? Now, i ask you again, how is playing against Iway different? What makes playing against iway different than bots? Where in "iway" is that "real person" you're referring to? You see iway, you know what they do, you know what they will cast, you know where they will place spirits, you know their movement, you know everything, it's repeatable, you meet the same tactic battle after battle. After you beat iway you can say "cool i beat real people", but did you? What makes those 'real people' real? When i use heroes they seem more real and creative than iway, and i'd rather play against heroway who doesnt use copycutter builds, than against copycutter builds such as iway was. Playing against iway was like farming, and playing against heroway feels the same from what i hear. No difference to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

I have tried to speak with the PvE representative "Gaile Gray" in game about the issues but no offense she is quite ignorant when it comes to the PvP aspect

lol so true, i realized that a long time ago even before HeroWay, when she made some.. "incredible" comments. Gaile is a bimbo, she's good at PR, but that's pretty much it. She's not a strategist and should not voice her oppinions on PvP or any game area which requires tactics.

phasola · Nov 10, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Those who complain that they have to fight Heroes and not real people, and have to fight it often - please explain to me what's the difference between IWAY and Heroway? IWAY (and Vimway) was too frequent as well. Most people i know got sick n tired of playing iway and quit HA. So how is Heroway different? Oh wait, you play against bots? Now, i ask you again, how is playing against Iway different? What makes playing against iway different than bots? Where in "iway" is that "real person" you're referring to? You see iway, you know what they do, you know what they will cast, you know where they will place spirits, you know their movement, you know everything, it's repeatable, you meet the same tactic battle after battle. After you beat iway you can say "cool i beat real people", but did you? What makes those 'real people' real? When i use heroes they seem more real and creative than iway, and i'd rather play against heroway who doesnt use copycutter builds, than against copycutter builds such as iway was. Playing against iway was like farming, and playing against heroway feels the same from what i hear. No difference to me.

No matter how you try to put it IWAY, VIM, B spike, etc are all real people. Heroes=AI. If i wanted to kill AI controlled chars i'd farm PvE.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 10, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

To me, there's a huge difference between AI and ViM. How isn't there? One is a bunch of crappy PuGs with no clue how to play, but at least they're people. At least it's still PvP. At least you're still getting a bit of enjoyment out of beating somebody else. Maybe it's just me, but I don't get that enjoyment beating heroway.

hyro yamaguchi · Nov 10, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

True, I feel better losing to a good heroway than winnign from a bad, if you lose at least you know that's because there's a player who performed well, if you win, you just beat some NPC's literally not player controlled.

Brother Redmund · Nov 11, 2006, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

True, I feel better losing to a good heroway than winnign from a bad, if you lose at least you know that's because there's a player who performed well, if you win, you just beat some NPC's literally not player controlled.

I'd rather lose to a good human team rather than give a hero team a thrashing. Why? Because, if you are worth your salt, you learn something, or at least should. A sensible player should be able at least question why they lost, and discuss tactic or skill changes to suit and try again. There is something to be gained from that. Winning against heroes, which I'm thankful to say the teams I am in do 99% of the time, gives you nothing other than fame.

Fame is great but is hardly a measure of true skill. That point is moot, and has been argued for a long long time. Playing against good human teams is where its at, you can improve your own technique whether you win or lose.

On a side note, I guess I have learned one thing playing against heroes; I was playing a necro hexer the other night with a bar that had several 2 sec cast spells, after a few runs I learned to cast a dummy hex before I casted the one I actually wanted to apply.... Dunkoro and Tahlkora, I wish I had a but a fraction of your p-draining capability

jull · Nov 11, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

I talked with all of my friends, guildies, friends list, alliance, etc...We are most PvP players and we all agree 6v6 Ha is getting so stupid and boring those days that if it continues we are all going to leave Gw for something else. I will talk for French community.

Reasons why Ha is getting worse and worse those time:

1: 6v6: Less players mean only one thing: less skills you can bring with you so: less variety of builds. Where is the time we where thinking about iway, vim, necrospike, bomb, rangerspike, balanced, mass denials, mass hex degen, double migraine, triplesmite, air spike, hex spike, heavy interrupts, weird things coming from imaginations, and so much more.. Now you go in Ha and have 30% chance to deal with 3 or 4 fire el and 50% with 2g 2paragons....builds variety is so poor that my wall should be more interesting...

2: Paragons problems: EVERY professions has counters into gw, Anet didn't think about any elite or real spell that can get their job hard? Even mesmers, that is used to get everyone’s job a real pain have absolutely no skill dealing with it? I mean Warriors, assa, dervich can be blinded, have problems with wards, aegis, hexes and so much things, casters can be dazed, interrupted. Monks have constant pressure, denials, interrupts, hexes…Paragons are like birds flying into battlefield.

Spell list to counter Paragons:

_Roaring winds: without oath you can’t use it and even up paragons don’t really care.
_Well of silence: need a corpse and…. Just stay out of it…completely useless
_Vocal minority: like every hex, need to be highly recovered otherwise useless.

3: Nf release: Ok paragons and dervish are fun even if they sound overpowered sometimes but did Anet forgot to give interesting stuff to other professions ? Mesmers, assassins, warriors, don’t have anything new and interesting, some skills are so funny that no one will ever tried them.

4: Heroes: Ha is supposed to be PvP, am I wrong or PvP means PLAYERS vs PLAYERS? So Anet can you explain me why 40% of the time I play against computers?

_How A none rank alone can just bring 4 fire el and beat r7+ players? Is Ha supposed to be a very hard place that needs a lot of time and experience to go to hall? We see heroes way at hall those days…
_Bots/Macros become to appears in Ha, we had quiet a balanced build and spent 45 minutes on a match with a guy alone spamming all his spell at the same orders, same frequency that didn’t answer in local chat neither in pm. So guys just put a macro, get heroes with them with a very defensive build (2m, 2p) and let computer turn when they sleep and work. Please Anet be really aware of that.
_It was supposed to be a solution for new players that had problems to find groups..They won’t learn how to play using heroes. Best way is to go with real groups, using ts or vent and let leaders, high rank pple show you what to do, when, how, and learn from them.

So, for all those reasons, I’m getting bored with Ha that was so fun before.We are all very sad when we think about how fun it was and what it become now. As I said if it continues me and my friends gonna leave to anything else and I heard about many players that become to leave gw community….

Vermilion · Nov 11, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

To me, there's a huge difference between AI and ViM. How isn't there? One is a bunch of crappy PuGs with no clue how to play, but at least they're people. At least it's still PvP. At least you're still getting a bit of enjoyment out of beating somebody else. Maybe it's just me, but I don't get that enjoyment beating heroway.

Heh, vim vs vim was hella fun during the 6v6 event.

Anyways, heroes ftl. Im just glad they can't play mystic wrath spike..I faced a few of those last night and we just couldnt do enough damage and ended up resigning..sigh.