Curse

Poison Ivy · Oct 31, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

/unagreed

Allow it until a better way for unranked players to gain fame comes up.

JR · Oct 31, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

/unagreed

Allow it until a better way for unranked players to gain fame comes up.

One broken system to support another broken system? No thanks. Fix fame.

The Silver Star · Oct 31, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

/agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

/unagreed

Allow it until a better way for unranked players to gain fame comes up.

Everybody starts somewhere wether it was before ranks really "existed" or a few months ago, there are always new people starting HA looking for other people to do the same thing with, it may take a while getting ranked but you sure as hell learn a lot getting that bambi a lot more than you do with Heroes.

hyro yamaguchi · Oct 31, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Completely true, or at least in my case, I learn most from the teams in which you spend half an hour organising, constant contact over TS/Vent.

But perhaps I'm an exception.

Anyway, did anyone notice rank elitism getting worse by heroes? I did. No one plays cookie cutter builds any more, nor do they play unranked other builds.

Any beginner seeking a party gets annoyed because most people went to Ngihtfall, chooses heroes. Anyone starting a party will rather take heroes than wait a long time.

Now this might seem obvious, and a passing problem, because Nightfall just came out, but do remember that a lot of people will continue playing heroway, simply because you can go to battle quickly.

This means that a lot of people will get out of the PUG play, or in other words, number of players for PUGs is in fact decreasing in stead of rising.

People who are ranked will be more likely to still play PUG, since they can still get into teams, feel that heroway is n00bish or simply because that is what they've been doing for months.

So: rank elitism will get worse by this, new players will be forced to play heroway or don't play, and I know very sure that many new players don't know which builds to play, don't want to lead a team, have the illusion that HA is for PvP or have any other objection versus Heroway.

So: many new players will quit very soon because they don't like the single faced metagame of 100% heroway, all those who play heroway will face just as much trouble getting ranked as it is today, only it will get much more boring; no players to play with. This will be likely to filter out even more potential players.

Ranked players will probably quit as well, I mean, I am sure many of you discussing here are ranked.

So: some heroway farmers, heroway players trying to get ranked, and a nearly empty HA.

Oh by the way, still waiting for Gaile to respond to these threads instead of ignoring them or stating everything in HA is just fine....perhaps I should just Pm here....

Bugeater · Oct 31, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Well I have heard a lot of what I'd consider crappy arguments in this thread. The primary argument against Heroes has been that they're not people. Period. That doesn't really seem to be an argument to me and since this fact doesn't bother me in the least I can only assume it's a difference of opinion as to what people find fun. I find a balanced playing field and a good challenge fun. It's rewarding to me to struggle through a hard battle and come out on top. I guess other people have that fun only when there's a real person on the other side of the screen that they beat. Whatever.

The argument has also been made that Hero's aren't balanced because they have fast reflexes. I don't give a whole lot of credit to that argument either. Sure it makes you feel pretty useless when you keep getting your skills interrupted, but I know there are interrupters that are nearly (if not) as solid as Heroes. Now they're just more prevalent than good players. Meh - it just adds to the challenge, but I don't think it's unbalanced.

But one argument was been presented by Thom (in this thread) that actually seemed to hold some merit. The thing with heroes is that you can see exactly which hexes, enchantments, conditions, environmental effects when they appear. This is a huge imbalance. One of the major obstacles that a team must overcome is communication of those exact things. Does the monk need to remove a cover hex? Has the key enchantment been removed, or one that we can let slide? Are the conditions afflicting my teammate critical, and how many are there? When the controlling party member can view and address these without any need for communication there is an imbalance when compared to an identical party of players.

Bocjo Bassannn · Oct 31, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

After calming down a bit I had to ad this. Hero's is the most revolutionary thing to come to guild wars pve. It makes many missions possible alone when you cant find a teamate or dont wish to be annoyed by pug groups that wont listen and refuse to work as a team. I can also see the attraction to hero vs hero battles. I could even see the usefullness were there new "fissure and underworld" areas to play in with a Hero vs Hero version of hall of hero's, but there are no new "relm's in Temple of ages or Zin Ku ect... Don't misunderstand my comments to be another "I hate hero's" flame. Because I don't hate them at all.. I think there a smart way to deal with shrinking numbers in some of the more difficult areas in the game. Makeing it possible for even someone new to compleate missions like Thunderhead Keep, Hell's Precipice,Unwakeing waters, Eternal grove, ect.

What do we have left that is purely pvp without hero's? Random arenas and team arena's.... thats it. Have a guild of 4 and you can gvg and with the right build I would bet improve your guilds ranking quite quickly. Just ad hero's and go. Sick of lfg, lfg, lfg in HA just add hero's henchies and go. I can see how this could end alot of complaints about how hard it is to get on a team in HA ect... But allowing hero's in HA has made nobody realy lfg lfg lfg anymore.... Can't find a monk ad a hero there generaly faster and better at knowing right when to cast this or that spell. Why becase there ai they know to use heal other because they need to heal you for 180 damage vs orison at 70 or whatever.. Need an inturupter that is quick and very good ad a hero. To me it takes the skill of useing that build away from the player which to me is what makes wining any match in Hall of Hero's mean something.

Anet please fix this before it lasts to much longer. Many of my pvp HA friends are simply stoping playing pvp entirely due to this change.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 31, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

^^ If you're in organized teams with TS/vent how the hell are you rank 1?

Byron · Oct 31, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Heroes provide a medium for easy, constant play with the possible result of fame. Much like IWAY once did or ViM still does. Notice, with the addition of heroes, there are far fewer ViM teams being advertised.

In the end, if you want a chance to win more than just Underworld, a full team of cooperative, coordinated, and responsive human beings is necessary.

I've tried playing heroway in HA, I'll admit. It's fun to engineer a team that seems soild. However, the AI is frustratingly lacking to justify this tactic. Condition or hex pressure is almost impossible, since the heroes focus on only your target. The monks don't know the first thing of energy management or proper heals, popping off a blessed light when a warrior is at a clean 95% health. Wards or passive prot is useless on a hero. Warrior hate is impossible; the heroes don't understand that faintheartedness or ineptitude is not meant for ritualist targets. Nor do they get that necros and eles are not good targets for blind or weakness. The only thing i found to be likable is when Koss uses final thrust when a target is actually below 50% health. Mediocre adren spike ftw.

Maybe the system will improve, but if it doesn't, heroes are only a half-step above henchmen, IMHO. So, I don't see it as a problem, but rather a fad.

hyro yamaguchi · Oct 31, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

We always slaughter the time in the first map, but lose at 1v1v1 because we don't have a holding build or because our hero is getting constant interupts, oh and I hardly ever get those kind of teams, because you can only get in such teams if you're ranked, or as a guild team, and there seem to be no active unranked HA guilds....but anyway, only 120 more fame and I'm there :P

Oh and cookie cutter builds lose 50% of the time in the first map and no that is IMO not my fault, because I keep the teams alive quite long under high pressure, but because such teams often can't even focus or kill a single person.

Honestly, I've had many battles in which pressing "O" simply displayed a near straight horizontal line at the enemie's team.

Byron · Oct 31, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

The struggle with heroes simplifies to figuring out the AI. The only builds that seem to be worthwhile on a hero are glimmer monks, thumpers, dragon slashers, and searing flames. The best heroway team I've seen so far is two AI monks (preferably glimmer/power drain), two searing flames (one human, one AI), a fighter hench and a healer hench. The AoE will roll most hero teams, which is 90% of HA atm. GG underworld.

If that's your idea of cooperative, then yes, it is the end.

Father Anansi · Oct 31, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Lets get my gripe with Heroway, out of the way. The Attraction I had to HA was the competitive Person Vs Person theme. If I had wanted too fight bots I would have gone to zaishen elite arena.

However, I see the merit in allowing hero's into HA; giving those who normally wouldn't have the opportunity to participate in HA battles to do so. Also this encourages individuals to come up with new inovative builds that they might have not been able before, due to other gimmick builds monopolizing the PvP. (Of course even with hero builds we've seen gimmicks. What with the meteor shower being the most exploited, and dervish AoE smite.)

There are far many disadvantages to playing Hero teams as opposed to 6 man teams. Smart PvPers have been and will be exploiting these disadvantages. I personally foresee Hero way becoming less popular later in the future do to the lack of communication 6 man teams benefit from and the lack of abbility hero teams have when it comes to splitting and flanking. Hero way will dominate HA untill people start playing smarter and communicating better.

tomcruisejr · Oct 31, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

fame is the root of all this HA crap.

if there was no fame, there wont be people complaining bout fame cheapened by certain people playing cheap ass builds and by "noob" pvers with their heroes earning fame like earning gold in pve. there will be no crap arguments such as fame earned by balanced > fame earned by (whatever) or heroway.

anyway, heroway got also 1 or few players in it, so technically its still a team with HUMAN in it. its not PVP if you are facing 6 npcs.

Sarevok Thordin · Oct 31, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Allow heroes for people under r3.

The ranked players brought on the elitism themselves, now they are suffering as unranked people get a way in at their own will.

Siren · Oct 31, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

fame is the root of all this HA crap.

if there was no fame, there wont be people complaining bout fame cheapened by certain people playing cheap ass builds and by "noob" pvers with their heroes earning fame like earning gold in pve. there will be no crap arguments such as fame earned by balanced > fame earned by (whatever) or heroway.

anyway, heroway got also 1 or few players in it, so technically its still a team with HUMAN in it. its not PVP if you are facing 6 npcs.

Don't be a moron. Fame is not the basis for this criticism, from what I can tell. People are pissed at this because they want to play PvP, NOT PvE. Fame has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to face humans, rather than AI. Heroway has one human player. That's it. That is not PvP by any stretch of the imagination. All that is is a human player directing PvE. The "challenge" posed by Heroway is NOT from that one human player at all; it's the focus fire from a team of five fully customized (yet stupid) heroes that's pissing people off. And that, my dear friend, is a PvE-type scenario.

The henchmen were there for when it was impossible to fill the team slots. Heroes give you a full team immediately, with no need at all to talk to other players.

hyro yamaguchi · Oct 31, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Oh might I ad to my previous that my third victory ever on the altar was just a moment ago vs 2 heroway...and that was an unranked yet organised team, and yes, both teams attacked us.

So I don't see how r6+ teams would be losing to heroway.

tomcruisejr · Oct 31, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Don't be a moron. Fame is not the basis for this criticism, from what I can tell...

trust me. it will all boil down to that.

anyway, good way to discourage players or eliminate heroway from HA is to constantly defeat it. no one will run a build that always loses right?

so go inside HA, defeat all heroways and then itll be eliminated in HA. prove to everyone that 6 brains (not 1 caller+5 drones) are always better than 1 brain and 5 AI so people who really want to win will get 5 human partymates. we all know that less forum QQing is key.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 31, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro yamaguchi

So I don't see how r6+ teams would be losing to heroway.

It's not like r6 means you're actually a skilled player. Thrust me, there are many unorganized high ranked teams in there.

hyro yamaguchi · Oct 31, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

r6 means you probably have played a lot of battles, and learned from it (unless you ebayed offcourse), so someone who is r6 will be more likely to be a good player than someone r1.

Siren · Oct 31, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

trust me. it will all boil down to that.

As if the r6/9+ players really give two shats about the miniscule amount of fame they win when they steamroll Heroway. See, only the serious PvPers care about this issue. And only serious PvPers are the ones who know that Fame is totally pointless. Those that do PvP and treat Fame like it's something important are scrubs, plain and simple. And if you really want to look at this issue as a matter of Fame, then serious PvPers and non-serious players alike know the difference between earned Fame and getting a few Fame from steamrolling Heroway. Earned Fame means something. "Free Fame" means absolutely nothing. Either way, don't be such a moron. lol

comonnow · Oct 31, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Heroes provide a medium for easy, constant play with the possible result of fame. Much like IWAY once did or ViM still does. Notice, with the addition of heroes, there are far fewer ViM teams being advertised.

Actually i would guess the reason you dont see ViM anymore is cause it got nerfed... maybe?