Curse

Symbol · Nov 13, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

IMO dervishes are pressure specialized melee. What I see going for them over a warrior:
* They can get ~frenzied dragon slasher dps without frenzy or even IAS
* Their snares are much more potent (harrier's grasp, grenth's grasp)
* Their mobility is better and in general they are just better against moving targets (huge crits, spammable 3/4 sec attacks, harrier's haste gives you extra damage vs moving foes).
* Their resilience vs non physical pressure is much higher. They have access to potent self heals and hex removal in their own lines.
* Energy based attacks means more frontloaded damage (good in skirmish) and more efficient target switching
* Adjacent AoE scythe attacks don't usually count for much, but the fact that you can position yourself to get maximum benefit and that you get stuff triggering for every hit can be potent (imagine victorious sweep triggering 2 times a pop against something like a thumper + pet). They also rape badly positioned spirits.

Where a warrior is better:
* KDs
* Non-elite access to DW (wearying strike pretty much requires Avatar of Melandru to use effectively)
* Armor (starting at 80AL where as dervishes pretty much top out there) which translates into ability to overextend
* Not enchant dependent.

In playing both a dragon slasher (which is the classic warrior pressure template) and a SM/Wind prayers specialized dervish (using zealous vow to power continual scythe attack spam) the dervish just feels more potent offensively. The fact that I can keep someone snared continually, that I can continually deliver huge hits with autocrits (~134 for victorious sweep), that I can remove stances on demand (wild blow), all translate to a much higher percentage of peak damage potential delivered.

Defensively the warrior is more robust, no doubt about it. But the dervish is no slouch. With enough specced into wind prayers I can get stuff like pious restoration which will remove _3_ hexes and heal for 86 each time. I can get a continual flow of health coming in from victorious sweep every 5 secs. And this is on top of 80AL vs everything.

The dervish feels like a complete class, IMO, unlike the assassin. They aren't warriors, but they are blessed with a selection of well balanced, useful skills that cover most of the things you'd want in a melee profession. A.net did a good job here.

Byron · Nov 13, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

The problem I see with dervishes is that they are too similar to warriors in their peak of play. The aoe attacks and mage-like abilites are nifty, but don't hold the same potential as a grunt-dervish, who sweeps hard into the midline. That pretty well summarizes the role of a warrior, as well, who has tactical abilities and aoe potential (cyclone axe, anyone?), but has been simplified to a damage dealer.

But, I don't see the dervish meeting the same utilities a warrior can bring to play. Warriors can deal heavy pressure, spike targets in cooperation or by themselves, run flags, gank bases, overextend, snare, survive, and put out a reliable IAS. Until a dervish can do all those things reliably, I will continue to see them more as a thumper than a warrior replacement.

Symbol · Nov 13, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

But, I don't see the dervish meeting the same utilities a warrior can bring to play. Warriors can deal heavy pressure, spike targets in cooperation or by themselves, run flags, gank bases, overextend, snare, survive, and put out a reliable IAS. Until a dervish can do all those things reliably, I will continue to see them more as a thumper than a warrior replacement.

They are closer to thumpers than warriors-but more like thumpers with better damage, self heal, and snares, but no KD. Dervishes can pressure better than a warrior, spike as well, snare much better, and I wouldn't call frenzy particularly "reliable" compared to something like whirling charge or even heart of fury. Sure it's a stance, but anyone can force you out of it by just delivering a heavy hit.

What they can't do is overextend or deliver KDs like a warrior-but what they do they do very well indeed.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 14, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

They are closer to thumpers than warriors-but more like thumpers with better damage, self heal, and snares, but no KD. Dervishes can pressure better than a warrior, spike as well, snare much better, and I wouldn't call frenzy particularly "reliable" compared to something like whirling charge or even heart of fury. Sure it's a stance, but anyone can force you out of it by just delivering a heavy hit.

What they can't do is overextend or deliver KDs like a warrior-but what they do they do very well indeed.

Remember that just because a skill is on the skill list does not mean that a class has the skillslots to use it effectively. Thumpers have plenty of self-heal and snare options, but they usually lack the skillslots to bring many of those along.

Als, remember that the effectiveness of Dervishes also depends on the opposing team's enchantment removal. Harrier's Grasp is hot right now because we're just coming out of a mass pressure meta that didn't run much enchantment removal. However, we've started to see more and more Dom mesmers and enchant strips in builds, and Harrier's Grasp doesn't look as good when you have to spend another skillslot covering it.

It may be that there are Dervish builds which can do everything you say reliably without being vulnerable to enchant strips, but I haven't fought one yet.

Symbol · Nov 14, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Remember that just because a skill is on the skill list does not mean that a class has the skillslots to use it effectively. Thumpers have plenty of self-heal and snare options, but they usually lack the skillslots to bring many of those along.

1 slot for heal, 1 slot for snare, 1 slot for cover enchant, 1 slot for runspeed stance, three slots for attack skills, last slot for rez or supplementary skill. It's tight but doable.

Quote:

Als, remember that the effectiveness of Dervishes also depends on the opposing team's enchantment removal. Harrier's Grasp is hot right now because we're just coming out of a mass pressure meta that didn't run much enchantment removal. However, we've started to see more and more Dom mesmers and enchant strips in builds, and Harrier's Grasp doesn't look as good when you have to spend another skillslot covering it.

I always run with a cover anyway, it's not hard to find two useful enchants in the dervish skill lines. More is tougher. Basically if you're going earth prayers you have more robust enchants that are generally not as offensively useful. If you're going wind prayers you are more vulnerable to stripping, but you get access to some really tasty skills to compensate.

Quote:

It may be that there are Dervish builds which can do everything you say reliably without being vulnerable to enchant strips, but I haven't fought one yet.

Such a build doesn't exist AFAIK I can't see the viability of stacking three or more enchants on a close combat dervish, so some degree of vulnerability to enchant hate is a weakness that's there to stay.

ogami_ito · Nov 14, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I think what I'm reading here is that Dervs are more like Thumpers...only in some ways better. Agree or Disagree?

BTW, I disagree about enchant removal effecting Dervs. Enchant removal is far worse for Searing Elementalists and maybe monks. Dervs get positive affects when many of their enchants are removed. Massive amounts of enchant removal will destroy dervs. But little amounts...I don't think so.

0mar · Nov 14, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

I think of Dervs as thumpers on steroids pretty much.

Patccmoi · Nov 14, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Als, remember that the effectiveness of Dervishes also depends on the opposing team's enchantment removal. Harrier's Grasp is hot right now because we're just coming out of a mass pressure meta that didn't run much enchantment removal. However, we've started to see more and more Dom mesmers and enchant strips in builds, and Harrier's Grasp doesn't look as good when you have to spend another skillslot covering it.

It may be that there are Dervish builds which can do everything you say reliably without being vulnerable to enchant strips, but I haven't fought one yet.

That's one of the reason i'd say that Dervish requires slightly different support than a warrior does. Cover enchants can come easily from your team too. Things like Aegis chain will often cover your enchants, Vigorous Spirit can be used on you, a Smite Monk will provide all the cover enchants you could hope for, etc. And not only are those covering your enchants, they are also constantly fueling your energy so that you can chain your attacks more easily.

Just think of a Dervish with 15 Mysticism-14 Scythe and maybe Avatar of Grenth and a Smite Monk on his back spamming Pious Assault. He'll do +31 and remove an enchant EVERY HIT FOR FREE. Ofc he can carry other attack skills (like Mystic Sweep obviously, Wild Blow, etc.) and be careful about not stripping important enchants, but that's usually not too hard to do if you pay attention.

I think that right now it's more about finding team builds favoring Dervishes and allowing them to use really threatening builds than trying to fit everything on a single Dervish bar. Yes the Dervish needs to be able to be threatening on his own and must not DEPEND on someone else to do something, but you can buff them significantly with common team support if you pick things favoring them well (mostly spammable enchants ending often, i mean for a Dervish any enchant ending is like Energizing Finale. And many builds already include a good number of them).

I wouldn't compare Dervish to Thumpers as that's really comparing 1 Dervish build. Dervish can be fully self-sufficient and do a good deal of utility on their own depending on what you build for. We used Dervish runner before and it was great, with Avatar of Balthazar you run fast and you tank hard, and it's ready every 2 min so you can always have it when running for stand. Just give him Heart of Fury along and you already have a fighter with 110 base AL, 33% move speed, 33% IAS and Holy damage most of the time. There's various things you can do with Dervish and i don't think that the most efficient builds are out atm for different roles you can fill.

I agree that a single warrior build might be more versatile and i think really that this is warrior's strength. But then again more versatile means your less efficient at certain things too. And it's not like all warrior builds are extremely versatile either. A Dragon Slash warrior isn't that great at many roles and can't really pack a self-heal + condition removal + IAS + run speed. It might be very possible to find fully versatile Dervish builds too, it just depends what you build them for.

And you must not compare Dervish to Warrior either without considering what Dervish can do that warriors CAN'T do. Tell me a warrior build that is high on offense and can fairly efficiently heal other people like Imbue or Watchful Intervention does? Or that can remove enchants constantly? Or do big Area AOE nukes? (because honestly with just 10 in Wind Prayers and 2-3 enchants coming from yourself or others you can easily throw Mystic Twisters for big damage without sacrificing your Scythe strength, it's not comparable to a Cyclone Axe at all, and in the backline of a team it can be pretty devastating). Dervish have their own versatility that can allow them to do many things. Stuff like Watchful Intervention and Imbue Health can be invaluable in a 2 men gank for example or can allow 2 Derv to overextend much more deeply than 2 warriors can afford to because they're front-line healing.

Neo-LD · Nov 14, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I think that you overestimate the number of things that you can squeeze onto a single skill bar. Sure, Dervishes have skills that allow high damage, skills that allow self heal, skills that allow good utility like cripple, skills that allow soloability, IAS, speedboosts, and defense removals... but I have yet to see a Dervish bar that can come close to doing all of them at once. You can pick a few of them, but please stop talking as if a single dervish is capable of all of that.

Dervishes have promise because of the 3/4s attacks, which can take the place of an IAS. Add either Reapers Sweep or Wounding Strike, and Wild Blow, and you have a decent melee attacker. There are problems - like lack of knockdown and increased vulnerability to enchant removal and other shutdowns... but not too shabby - could be excellent in the right, specialized builds.

Byron · Nov 14, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I wouldn't compare Dervish to Thumpers as that's really comparing 1 Dervish build. Dervish can be fully self-sufficient and do a good deal of utility on their own depending on what you build for.

I can see how that is true. I realize that the current meta just wants to find a dervish that can kill quickly and efficiently in a front-line role, because thumpers and the like are the style of the ladder climb. I still don't like the vulnerability of their enchantments, however - it is somewhat reminiscient of an assassin's skill-chain vulnerability.

Quote:

Tell me a warrior build that is high on offense and can fairly efficiently heal other people like Imbue or Watchful Intervention does? Or that can remove enchants constantly? Or do big Area AOE nukes?

Suggesting that a dervish take on a specialist role? I would love to see the dervish become everything the ritualist wanted to be.

Vermilion Okeanos · Nov 16, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

So far, from my observation, dervish is fragile if the team aren't build for them, unlike warrior; 1 warrior build can fit into MANY different team builds, when dervish almost always changing a few skill depending on team mate. However, that might just be the current metagame shift that casted such illusion on me.

I believe the dervish offense is actually rather fragile. Almost like a gimmick. There are many ways to render a dervish quite useless. From interrupt to condition/hex, while I really can't say which enchantment removal is best against them right now since there are so many now (while each with very different effect, and I just can't simply say enchant removal anymore). If meta shift to dervish, I am sure there is a special enchantment removal going to be used more often, whatever that would be. (for all you know, weapon spells would shine brighter)

Warrior have been the meta for so long. So many builds would just stick them in there for the hell of it, because you can't be wrong with 1 or 2 warriors. So, from the look of it, warrior are still very "versatile" (although I would really used the word "cooperative", but that would lead to misunderstanding). You can't forget how to ride bicycle once you got it down; it is just that simple.

My few complain for dervish are...
-I really dislike heart of fury. In my opinion, this thing is weak sauce. I want my IAS at the moment I need it.
-I dislike those dervish 50% hp skills. Skills that limit a user's potential flexbility.
-Whenever critical on non-moving target with sythe, it is like I won a lottery. I hate gambling in games of competetion if I can win by skills.

My loves for dervish are...
-More hp on armor. I love more runes.
-Never been so happy to see my target kite.
-Eye poping damage that I thought I would only see from ele elc orb some lv1 monsters.
-There is no garuntee of shutting down a dervish using 1 method all the time. Like how you can't tell whether a rit in PvE is spirit or restoration.

All in all, there is no way the dervishes now are in final stage. I just hope we will see a debate among top GvG team mates whether their opponent will bring dervish or warrior at the moment before they enter the stage for the final showdown.

We will see.