Curse

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I think that YAA is ok overall because it works as the name says : if target is alone. It's its whole point. I'd like to see requirement raised to Area and something like 12s recharge or 8s duration, but i don't consider it truly broken atm.

We use a pretty original 2 men gank team sometimes and YAA warriors can't do anything as long as you stick close to each other. When something has a counter like that (that requires no skill slot to counter but tactics and positioning) it MUST be superior when its condition to work is met than alternatives.

There's something about the synergy between YAA and Signet of Malice that feels too good though. It's incredibly hard to shutdown a YAA warrior in a 1v1 situation. But i can still solo them pretty easily on a Deadly Arts Assassin hehe.

Byron · Nov 13, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Mesmers imo win games, in every meta, regardless of the FOTM, a mesmer wins games. Surely an absolute Tier 1 class by anyone's standards.

Very much QFT. The current meta may overlook them, but to again echo Ensign: There are really only three classes - monk, mesmer, and warrior. Of course, he might be able to make a case for eles now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

How are warriors now arguably the best gankers ?
Assassins will always be able to beat warriors at ganking imo unless there's something I'm missing?

Only due to AoD. Plus, d-shot>you.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 13, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

AoD Assassins have nearly fallen out of play as gankers, except in some multi-man ganks where you're going to be fighting multiple opponents and still need a mobile melee character.

Skirmish is, in large part, about the rock-paper-scissors of the various skirmish templates. AoD guys would eventually beat Blinding Flash eles, but the ele could typically last long enough for help to arrive. The same basically held true for Blurred Vision water eles. Most other skirmish templates would beat AoD sins straight up - Cripshot rangers with Distortion, illusion mesmers, Mindshock eles, and even D-blow + Heal Sig warriors would walk all over them if the assassin was forced to fight. The advantage of the assassin is he could use AoD to escape from battle and keep from ever dying, so he basically tied up one skirmish character permanently defending the base. A 1-1 trade can be useful if it's the right character.

YAAhoos, on the other hand, can beat most skirmish templates in a straight fight. They'll easily kill assassins, warriors, cripshot rangers, and blinding flash eles. Water eles with Freezing Gust can get away from them in some cases, but they'll never kill the YAAhoo. Crippling Anguish mesmers can keep from dying and force the YAAhoo to spam Heal Sig, but they won't usually kill him if he's good at cancels. Mind Shock eles are the only real danger, especially if they're combined with a strong hex snare template like a water ele or crippling anguish mes. Templates that go /Mo for Mending Touch throw a bit of a wrench into things, but the fact that skirmish templates use skill slots exclusively to counter YAAhoos really shows their effectiveness.

Since most builds don't have a Mind Shock ele, this means that teams usually have to tie up 2 characters to deal with the YAAhoo. Even though he can't usually 2v1, he can keep enough of a presence that the other team can't send those 2 characters back to the flagstand. This leaves them fighting 6v7 and puts them at a pretty serious flagstand disadvantage. The upshot of all this is that the AoD assassin tends to tie up one defender, while the YAAhoo tends to tie up at least 2 WHILE being a more effective flagstand character than the AoD guy.

The icing on the cake is that Warrior and Assassin are the two classes with the best skirmish skills at their disposal. Healing Signet is better than Shadow Refuge in just about every concievable way, and Sprint is much easier on the energy than Dash. On the assassin side you have Signet of Malice (obviously) and a variety of useful movement skills. Shadow Walk fits well in a YAAhoo and allows him similar teleport/escape abilities to an AoD assassin. Disrupting Dagger is also a nice ranged interrupt which can prevent keys kills in skirmish environments and also proves useful at the flagstand.

In short, the YAAhoo is the best single ganker I'm aware of, no question. It's possible that a better one will develop from some previously unknown skill combo, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Whether that's nerfworthy is up for debate - certainly I think it makes single gankers much more viable than they were in the AoD assassin days.

Riotgear · Nov 14, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Also, Earshot range is bigger than "in the area".

That's what I said.

Quote:

The actual distance at which you can use YAA is bugged, I think. I really doubt it was intended to have full spell range intsead of normal shout range.

Read the NF pre-release patch notes. Earshot got changed to the edge of the danger zone, which is identical to full casting range.

Zuranthium · Nov 14, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Read the NF pre-release patch notes. Earshot got changed to the edge of the danger zone, which is identical to full casting range.

This I did not know. How fun.

I really dislike "You're All Alone!". I mean, I like it, but it's just totally NOT the kind of skill Warriors should have. A full range offensive ability that uses energy instead of adrenaline????

Thom Bangalter · Nov 14, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Earshot range got increased to full casting range on NF's release, which is quite big, even bigger than "in the area."

I can think of many ways to adjust it, and all of them have some merit, pretty much anything toning it down would be acceptable, such as raising the energy cost to 10, increasing the recharge, decreasing the duration, causing adrenaline loss, adding more conditionality, etc.

I meant that when someone uses YAA on me, and someone is in earshot on my team, I don't get crippled. Sorry for the confusion.

I also wish it failed if I'm standing next to a NPC.

ogami_ito · Nov 14, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

A bit off-topic but...can someone point out what is a typical Yahoo build?

Seamus Finn · Nov 14, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

sever gash final YAA sig of malice/mending touch frenzy sprint res sig. Pretty obvious actually, after you realize that a sword war is the only warrior that isn't hampered by not having a sword elite.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 14, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

sever gash final YAA sig of malice/mending touch frenzy sprint res sig. Pretty obvious actually, after you realize that a sword war is the only warrior that isn't hampered by not having a sword elite.

Most good builds I've seen run an interrupt over Final.

With the addition of Critical Chop, I'm not convinced that a two-skill sword warrior is better than a two-skill axe warrior. 5 adrenaline deep wound with Dismember compared to a conditional 8 and + a bit of damage with Gash. Sever causes bleeding, which is kind of neat in skirmish, but the +damage and fast attack of Critical Chop is arguably nicer. The occasional interrupt is just icing on the cake.

If you are going to take three attack skills, sword wins out because of Final. With just two, I'd say go with the axe.

JR · Nov 14, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

sever gash final YAA sig of malice/mending touch frenzy sprint res sig. Pretty obvious actually, after you realize that a sword war is the only warrior that isn't hampered by not having a sword elite.

Healing Signet over Frenzy, if you hope to be a threat as a solo character.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 14, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Reading over his build again, res sig on a pure gank character is also pretty pointless.

Ensign · Nov 14, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Of course, he might be able to make a case for eles now.

They're Monks for the most part.

Peace,
-CxE

Patrograd · Nov 14, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Thinking aloud, would a teleport be any use on that character? I would go sword personally as degen+interrupt is ftw against NPCs imo

Sever, gash, distracting blow, healing sig, YAA, sig malice, shadow of haste/deaths charge, sprint/dash

??

ogami_ito · Nov 14, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I thought it was this build. Thanks. Now...why is it so good? Because its dificult for the enemy to get away?

Patrograd · Nov 14, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

I thought it was this build. Thanks. Now...why is it so good? Because its dificult for the enemy to get away?

As a ganker, your main threats come from physical damage and conditions. The Guild Lord in particular, but also the Knights do a shed load of damage, and the pin down from the archers can get you killed pretty easily.

YAA in this role has the huge advantage of putting weakness onto the Lord or Knight, massively reducing their damage, as well as cripple, meaning you quickly lose 2 conditions with Sig malice which allows for a quick getaway if nothing else.

YAA also owns alot of the flag running templates, fulfilling the requirements for the gankers "secondary" role, flag harassment. Air Eles cant blind you effectively for one thing, and unless they have strong condition removal (and only mending touch or sig malice will do really) they are going to be almost permanently crippled. As a result, you pretty much force teams into escorting their flag, which may not be what they want to do

Thom Bangalter · Nov 14, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Any warrior that can stay alive in the base is an excellent gank character, their strength lies in YAA being the rock to the ele's scissors. They can clear out pretty much an entire base if not dealt with quickly, and it's going to take more than one character to take him down.

Tul · Nov 14, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I am a bit confused about the "alone" part in the YAA Elite Skill.

We performed tests yesterday with a guildmate in scrimmage and the shout had no effect on someone standing next to a NPC (an Archer), with no allied player in the aggro bubble (it was 1v1). But I read contradictory statements in this thread, would it be that you have "bad" NPC who leave you alone, and "good" ones who actually support you ? I do not think so...

Granted even with a Flash-bot standing next to a NPC to defend the base the YAA warrior is still a threat as there are always lone souls in the NPC crowd.

Byron · Nov 14, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A 1-1 trade can be useful if it's the right character.

But in tying up the skirmish guy, assumedly the flag runner (I don't see many cripshots or support eles in the midline these days), you also tie up another character who needs to run flags. Then again, the skirmish now has to defend that flag runner from your attacks. The alternatives to bringing two men out of the fight(in that scenario) is a either a completely ganked base or an enemy with constant morale boost.

So in sending your one-man gank, you can pretty much dictate the enemy reaction, if done right. It takes a skilled ganker, and the build is secondary to that. Ideally, you would be fighting their 6 men with your seven, and be well ahead in flags.

Quote:

YAAhoos, on the other hand, can beat most skirmish templates in a straight fight....Templates that go /Mo for Mending Touch throw a bit of a wrench into things, but the fact that skirmish templates use skill slots exclusively to counter YAAhoos really shows their effectiveness.

Quote:

The upshot of all this is that the AoD assassin tends to tie up one defender, while the YAAhoo tends to tie up at least 2 WHILE being a more effective flagstand character than the AoD guy.

Point very much taken. I think an AoD sin would still be more effective in the top 200, but perhaps not in the top 50. Maybe I just haven't played enough YAA to make that claim, though.

Seamus Finn · Nov 14, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Healing Signet over Frenzy, if you hope to be a threat as a solo character.

How embarrassing. Yes, of course bring heal sig. Also, as Squidget points out, my guild did not run res sig on the YAA War for the reason mentioned and brought frenzy because my war pals just love their frenzy! Tele's arent terribly useful for the YAA cause he can snare so well and already has a speed buff so catching people is already accounted for in the build. We ran final because it was a 3 war build and still wanted the option of outpressuring opponents at the stand, but I can see how an Axe could work.

moriz · Nov 14, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

i've tested an axe-wielding YAAhoo with a teleport. here's my setup:

axe=12+2
str=8+1
tac=10+1
sha=2

death's charge
frenzy
dismember
agonizing chop
"you're all alone!"
healing signet
signet of malice
dash

its damage is seriously lacking. but in the area where this character is used, ie annoying the crap out of people, ganking npcs, it works quite well. i've also tried a tactic where i can use this character to steal opponent repair kits on the warrior isle. if they're caught off-guard, your team can control both kits right off the opening faceoff at the flagstand.