Curse

JR · Nov 20, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I believe a large part of the problem is that Anet balances the game based on top 20 play only. This means the experience of the middle and lower classes is largely ignored -- and the difference in what they play and how they play is huge. Lower ranked guilds are FAR more likely to face gimmicks than top teams and are generally unable to deal with it.

A good example of this is touch rangers in AB. Because top players had no problem dealing with it, anet did not change the skill. However, less skilled people in AB could not deal with it, which led to a proliferation of touchers in AB and tons of frustration on having to play then so often. You see the same scenario with many one dimensional builds -- from SF heroway to thumpers to sbri and the list goes on forever. IE, these skills are imba because they give an average player a big advantage against another average player, even if they don't give a top 20 player an advantage against another top 20 player.

Until anet takes into account the lower classes, mid to low level pvp will remain dominated by gimmicks and fotm. I believe pvp as a whole is worse off because anet has not yet realized balance in the hands of a few elite gamers is not the same thing as balance for the masses. Average players experience and play the game completely different than the top 20 does, and the balance changes should reflect this.

When what you are aiming for is a competitive game, why balance something that doesn't really need it when the simplest solution is just for people to get better?

Byron · Nov 20, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

When what you are aiming for is a competitive game, why balance something that doesn't really need it when the simplest solution is just for people to get better?

QFT

I return to my example of monks. They have simply gotten better over the months, because they had to. Who would have thought, a year ago, that signet of devotion was sufficient e-management in a damage heavy meta?

pah01 · Nov 20, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I believe a large part of the problem is that Anet balances the game based on top 20 play only. This means the experience of the middle and lower classes is largely ignored -- and the difference in what they play and how they play is huge. Lower ranked guilds are FAR more likely to face gimmicks than top teams and are generally unable to deal with it.

This is exactly how it should be.

The game HAS to be balanced for high end play.

Low level players need to learn how to deal with stupid builds like touchers in RA by kiting ETC.

Mid level players need to gain experience in coping with different type of gimmicks and improving their teamwork.

Everyone in a top guild had to do the same.

My own guild has 4 players from a guild called goat. We were always between rank 200 and 400 for almost 6 months gaining experience, we lost to spikes, we lost to pressure, we lost to chocking gas rangers, we lost to dual surge, we lost to split builds, we lost to top guilds who got 5-6 rating from us, we lost to SB/RI, we lost because we made some basic errors in our gameplay.

250 odd gvg's later the four of us have eventually found some players who have had similar experiences and some others who have been on a higher level before us. Now we are rank 30-40 and we hope to stay there.

Now we lost to some very good gimmicks like clan cactus a few days ago, and we got beat inside of 5 minutes. We figured out exactly what we did wrong before and we took 20 odd rating of them yesterday.

We made some bad VOD plays recetly as well as losing to some top 100 guilds playing split. So now we are sitting down and figuring out our tactics to cover those things.

So if you want advice on getting to top 100 or more here it is.

1. Go to observer. Pick a build from any guild in the top say 50. Figure out attributes. No Superior runes.

2. Figure out how you are going to play against all types of gimmicks inadvance.

3. Dont rage after losses. Just got owned by thumper pressure while your blinding surge guy was flag running? Next time have a warrior run the flag so your blinder can reduce pressure.

4. Play it a lot.

5. Figure out how you are going to play against all types of gimmicks inadvance.

6. Bring your character builds to RA so you are very used to using the bar.

7. Read beatdown vs control thread on team-iq forums.

8. Have the same guys/gal play all the time. An ideal number is 12 or so.

9. If you really want to get good - spend spare time in TA/HA instead of playing PVE. even HA will help co-ordination, tho you should probably wait till heroes are removed or limited.

What skills are overpowered right now?

Energising Finale. How do I know? Playing against Esoteric Warriors yesterday and triggering shame on purpose as soon as it landed because I had infinite energy and only had to worry about being able to cast against a spike.

Rampage. Needs to be a stance so that you can wild blow it for a start. Maybe tone down the boosts to say 15% only each increase.

Searing flames is not overpowered. Its great that elementalists dont utterly suck anymore at dealing damage.

Joe

pah01 · Nov 20, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

QFT

I return to my example of monks. They have simply gotten better over the months, because they had to. Who would have thought, a year ago, that signet of devotion was sufficient e-management in a damage heavy meta?

Sig of devotion is not sufficient energy management in the damage heavy meta.

It is because everyone is running motivation paragons.

Joe

Bankai · Nov 20, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Pre-paragon blessed light monks only used sig of devotion.

pah01 · Nov 20, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Pre-paragon blessed light monks only used sig of devotion.

And people packed a good bit more melee hate into their builds, elementalists brought aegis and extinguish on top of heal party, pre nightfall pressure wasnt as strong as currently possible with rampage as one. Distortion was good.

Joe

Blame the Monks · Nov 20, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

When what you are aiming for is a competitive game, why balance something that doesn't really need it when the simplest solution is just for people to get better?

Because after 18 months, at best a few hundred have been able to do so. What about the other 2 million players? Why not nerf the problematic skills (such as ranger spike) as soon as they become a problem the average player can't deal with. Why is it beneficial to the game as a whole to ignore the fact gimmicks/spikes ruin the game for most of the playerbase?

Lorekeeper · Nov 20, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I think i need to repeat the general message i tried to convey...

first and foremost... i did not talk about skills being overpowered. I in no way believe that there are skills which are so powerful that there is nothing you can do against them. And even if skills were overpowered... if they became metagame dominant theres nothing to say that you couldnt run a counter to it. Such is the nature of the GW skill system... thankgoodness for that. I believe there is a huge difference between an imbalanced skill and an overpowered one even if the effects on the metagame are the same.

My issue is that given the wide range of skills that are available to us with each new chapter there always seems to be a handful of skills which dominate the metagame. Please refer to my OP for arguments why a handful of skills are able to do this. And i really believe that this doesnt need to happen.

Again its not that these skills are overpowered... they just present to the average player a much easier and efficient way to compete at a higher level than they would naturally be able to achieve, i believe this is what you might call imbalanced. And they eclipse other skills in terms of effectiveness imposing an almost self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of what becomes metagame.

I will point back to the thumper only as a way to highlight my argument.

The original thumper was a monster in terms of pressure coupled with ferocious strike and the ease of running it was unparalleled. Although the post-nerf thumper is not totally unusable... it just isnt AS effective as other choices for melee pressure and to be honest falls way behind. Thats my point. We went from having a build that was clearly THE choice for an average player running a high pressure build to having a build which couldnt stand up against other choices available and so builds revolving around the thumper disappeared. Funny how we have now a new skill which has almost reversed this entire process... and to be honest was it really necessary?

The issue here is... why couldnt it be balanced in such a way that it still remained a potential alternative? (For this argument we need to ignore the new RaO skill.)

Pets now gain dp and smart teams could dp them to max if they were causing trouble... irresistible blow isnt as good as before so much so that it has disappeared from the skill bar of a regular hammer warrior... tigers fury isnt as great as before. Since the thumper using ferocious strike relies on the pet being alive to keep up its dps... the pet nerf alone might have been enough to make the thumper a liability as opposed to a calculated risk. Surely the pet nerf alone was all that was needed... forcing the thumper to sit still and rez his own pet every time it died... is a great way to reduce his dps. Why the need to ALSO nerf irresistible blow AND tigers fury...why not just nerf irresistible blow? Or make tigers fury costs more energy so that keeping it up 24/7 made using crushing and irresisitible blow combos harder to manage? Its a clear and frightening example of how the decision on what to run is being made for us by skill changes that severely alter the metagame.

Everyone has a very clear idea of wat SHOULD be run in order to be successful... in HA or GvG. Our ideas of what SHOULD be run seem to be forced upon us by the strange hierarchy of skills available to us. We are forced to think in terms of a select number of skills and this cripples creativity and it means that the vast majority of skills are sidelined. And just to make this clear... i dont think this is because these other skills are bad skills...

And the fact that there is a small list of Elite skills and NON-elite skills which shape our ideas of what to run... is exactly the problem i am trying to identify. And it is a chronic problem in recent GW history.

Im not even asking that this small list be widened drastically... im asking that we are not given skills that narrow this list even more. Theoretically Nightfall should have introduced skills which could be added to this small list. I guess im a little distressed at how FEW skills have been given this honour. Or is it just a matter of time?

What a nice christmas present that would be....

moriz · Nov 20, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

i think one of the problems with all skills being equal would be the proliferation of highly specialized builds, each needing highly specialized counters. eventually, there will be so many of such builds that gvg becomes a simple game of rock paper scissors: if your build have the necessary counters against your opponent: you win regardless of skill.

although the game is not quite at that point yet, i feel with more and more skills added for every expansion, that problem will soon arise.

master_of_puppets · Nov 20, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Is it just me or is it that whenever a team or single player build is becoming less popular due to a nerf and is on the verge of dieing out, Anet makes a new skill that is pretty much designed for that particular build, like Bullshit as One for thumpers and after the OoV nerf Iway was decreasing somewhat but went right back up when OoA was made which made it even more powerful.

Thom · Nov 21, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

I would continue to argue that the problem is the environment/game-type not the skill balance or skill choice. GvG builds have always been different from HA, RA, TA and farming builds; there may be some overlap, but the focus is different.

Skill preferred because they fit existing roles efficiently. If you have two builds designed for the same purpose, if one build is marginally better that build will be used exclusively over the alternatives. Some roles will always be needed: healing, pure pressure, gankers... so builds will inevidably come to prominence which seem to preform best in a particular balance.

Metagaming: There is a cycle which applies to major builds and strategies which can be documented.

I. Introduction phase: A build or combo finds a niche in the meta-game. This can either be something brand new arising from new skills or the introduction of something which responds to predictable elements of the meta-game. Meta game forming builds often start with a good idea by some obscure player or minor guild, but sometimes it is a general recognition by many team.

II. Popularization Phase. Without exception a top guild or player runs the build and legitimizes it as a competitive build. Everyone looking for the next big thing decides to play with this formerly obscure combo and eventually many of your top 200 teams can successfully duplicate the success.

III. Standardization Phase. There are some builds people are simply familar with, but choose not to employ, while others become a standard of the current metagame. If enough guilds are playing a certain build, teams spend significant attention on efficiently playing and countering a certain build/combo. Many inovations don't stand up to this type of scrutiny, but several thrive for an extended period as a significant part of the metagame with which all serious players are aware.

IV. Counter phase. As popularity increases, predictablity becomes a major liablity. While people on the forum complain about having to bring counters for XYZ, teams running these standard metagame builds are at an increasing disadvantage. By now everyone knows the inevidable weaknesses every build has and are experienced in employing tactics against a build type. It is no longer enough to just be mediocre at employing an uber-build, instead players will need some skill to deal with inevidable counters.

V. Rebalance Phase: Skills will inevidably be rebalanced in order to shake up the meta-game. If a build is weakened players knew how to respond to the stronger version, you'll see an exodus from a particular build/combo. This isn't so much about the skill being over-nerfed, as it is the combined effects of the skills being overplayed and now being weaker or easier to counter.

VI. Mature phase. Now that the craze is over and the metagame is focused elsewhere, players can return to a build or strategy for its original strengths. Top players are aware of the full library of possiblilities, not only the current craze so you never know when a seeming dead meta-game arises in a new context.

VII. Reintroduction phase: If a new skill appears or the metagame cycles, variations on old builds and combos again become important to the meta. The cycle could repeat.

Exampes: Boon-prot, Thumpers, Ranger spike, necro spikes, IWAY, various split tactics...

Anet definitely encourages some of this and some of it occurs despite what Anet was trying to attempt in a rebalance. You must be aware of the meta game to play guildwars seriously, but there remain a variety of choices within any meta. You can run the "meta-build" and rely on skill for advantage. You can run a counter meta-build, normally some sort of control build taking advantage of healing or damage trends. You can run something totally un-metagame like a spike or split/movement build which tend to negate the meta-game and test the opponents movement or spike suppression.

I would like to reiterate that most of the metagame issues in HA is an game-type issue. A vast number of skills are simply unplayable in HA because they are utility of a variety which is unnessary in HA. You see almost as much variety in GvG flaggers as you do in everything HA.

shardfenix · Nov 21, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

What i am asking is this.... why must the metagame PERPETUALLY be put into a situation where certain skills are BOUND to be more popular than others? The whole concept of balancing skills is surely so that the metagame is fluid and transparent... meaning... you have the opportunity to take advantage of at least a LARGE range of skill combinations in order to be successful.

Because most of the PvPers are too lazy to earn their fame/rating. It is easy to farm fame/rating by playing build X, so why play anything else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Just look at the number of skills that NIGHTFALL introduced... and then look at the current state of GvG and HA metagame. You should notice that there doesnt seem to be a very good correlation between INCREASES number of skills and INCREASES in build diversity.

Blame Anet for making classes and skills that are broken up their own arses. Like I said, if you can win easily with build X, why run anything else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The fact that ANY metagame in ANY season is dominated by a handful of skills is an indication that these skills are out of sync in terms of balance with the other skills available to us.

Rampage as One... gives 33% faster attack speed AND 25% movement speed boost.

It's ok because it costs 25 energy, which rangers can't spam more than once or twice before running out of energy [/sarcasm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Im not saying that it is a skill open to abuse. Its not a game breaking skill. It is however... totally imbalanced in that it alone offers a melee character an unparalleled buff to attack and movement speed rolled into 1 stance. The ease at which this skill enables a very simple skill combo to inflict such high pressure is something that

1) can be done by almost anyone with little experience
2) makes you forget that theres other ways to achieve your goal through other means because there really are no parallels

I would like to point out that
1: RaO is not a stance, which makes it even more broken (and yes, it is broken to be better than any other character permanently.) (I also see that you already know this.)
and 2: See Avatar of (insert favorite GW god here). It's broken. Except Lyssa, which isn't broken because it doesn't add damage yet. Thanks, Anet.

I agree totally with you. The only problem with your post is that most of the PvP population doesn't care. They want skills to be broken so they can cheat their way to the top instead of use skill, like it says on the box.

If you'll notice, all of the flavors of the month in ANY arena have been "gimmick builds." These include most spikes, IWAY, vim, SF, spirit spamming, touch rangers, and too many other builds that I have blocked from memory. The only time a FotM was not broken was when everyone ran balanced with 2 e-denial mesmers, when there were no game breaking skills available.

The bottom line is that Arenanet wants money, which they get by keeping all these players hooked. The amount of players who actually want to play real builds is much smaller than those who want to cheat. Therefore GW will always be a game filled with broken or overpowered skills and mechanics to please the majority.

Thom · Nov 21, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

The only time a FotM was not broken was when everyone ran balanced with 2 e-denial mesmers, when there were no game breaking skills available.

That was one of the most boring balances the game saw. Gale was overpowered and esurge was overpowered, therefore everyone ran them exclusively. Balance builds had a huge advantage because between knockdowns and edenial, you could control almost every build. The build was so universal it was painful.

Over 300 new skills and a total of three of them are a bit overpowered. Further more, this is the "pre-season" which is intentionally designed to catch balance issues. Most of the PvP population realizes that balance isn't perfect and will never be by the nature of the game. Many in the PvP community appriciate some spikes and overloads, because they keep "balanced" builds honest. Overloads and spikes force pressure-spike/control type builds to be quick and efficient at executing a counter strategy. If you pride yourself on running a reactive "skill" build, playing "spike noobs" could be the best way to test your ability to react and control a match.

Most PvPers would be happy to see new and creative alternatives that are viable for competitive play. Many top guilds will test some of the most bizarre strategies on smurfs in order to figure out what's feasible. Sure there are sheep out there, but no amount of skill balance is going to eliminate the sheep. Many people want a proven build because they simply don't have time to optimize 1000 different skills for themselves.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 21, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Thom is teh smart. Though I'm not sure what you meant when you said 3 skills were overpowered...Rampage as One is rediculous, so that's one. I assume you were implying searing flames, which is not overpowered at all, but people don't know how to spread out and use heal party and extinguish properly. The third...YAA maybe? I've had issues with it but again, It can be mitigated if you run the right build. Sure they're gimmicky, but I'm pretty sure everyone who posts on this forum has been involved in some sort of gimmick build at some point.

Edit: oh! energizing finale duh. Clearly the first skill to be smited down by the almighty nerf bat. I realize Joe summed them up nicely.

To touch on something Thom noted at the end of his post: Guild Wars is, to the best of my knowledge, a game. Play things that are fun, play things that help you win, and if you really do want to hit high-end pvp, listen to what Joe from hanging out has to say, he already touched on a lot of issues going.

I should also note that I do extremely stupid crap all the time and try to learn from my mistakes, so definetly take advantage of the observer feature (GJ Anet on giving this to all guilds, it should really encourage a more competitive ladder). I think that's another key that people are oftentimes unwilling to do.

My only frustration is how the ladder works; certain guilds only seem to GvG during the dead hour where they play really low rated teams, and time zone differences prevent play between european, korean, and american teams. I don't know if I've ever played an asian team to be honest, except doing a pug at 3 AM.

Thom · Nov 21, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Wow my grammar sucks when I'm in a hurry. Maybe I'll edit tomorrow.

I was referring to Energizing Finale, Ramage as One and Searing Flames, although I feel Searing Flames is fine outside of HA. I'm glad the ladder is getting augmented by a larger tournement, for the reasons you mentioned. You really can't take the ladder seriously as a refined measure of comparison.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 21, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

That was one of the most boring balances the game saw. Shock was overpowered and esurge was overpowered, therefore everyone ran them exclusively. Balance builds had a huge advantage because between shock and edenial, you could control almost every build. The build was so universal it was painful.

You're thinking of Gale, not Shock.

I'd say that having a single balanced build that can counter everything reasonably well is good for the game. It allows player skill to win out and prevents losses to rock-paper-scissors build matchups. In the dual-surge metagame, if you beat another team you could legitimately say that you were better than them. Not so much these days.

I guess it's just a difference of opinion/game goals though.

Thom · Nov 21, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Yeah, meant gale. I've always felt that the meta-game and uncertainty was one of the strengths of guildwars. Recent tournements have done an excellent job of mixing metagame and ingame strategy. Rock-paper-scissors isn't that great of an analogy, because there is a continuum from extreme gimmicks to very balanced builds and there are multiple dimensions to the competition. Having one powerful control build, means that you lose all of your balanced pressure, balanced spike, pressure spike and balanced overload builds which are skill builds which add flavor to the metagame.

If every team used the same player types and formations in football, the games would be far less interesting. Likewise, if iQ and EviL were playing similar strategies and builds their matches would have been less epic. Maybe my love for macro victories over micro wins informs my opinion, but the balance of the two is what makes Guild Wars pvp great.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 21, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

The problem with an unstable metagame is that individual matches really start to mean nothing. When I beat a team on the ladder right now, I can't help but wonder if I really beat them, or if it was just my build countering their build? Did they fail to react effectively to our split, or did they just not have the tools to deal with it? Could they have played the match differently, or was it pretty much decided from the start based on the builds we brought along?

Similarly, when I lose I'm constantly questioning whether there was something we could have done to improve, or if it was just a random build counter that we couldn't have changed. When we beat a team with something that obviously isn't a build counter (say, we're on near-mirror builds) it's a really satisfying victory. When I beat a team because my build was a random counter to their build, I feel sorry for them.

I strongly believe that builds should be like races in an RTS, or characters in a well-balanced fighting game. They define your style of play, but they don't define whether or not you can win. Terran and Protoss in Starcraft are different styles of play, but you can't say that one will always have an advantage over the other.

Seamus Finn · Nov 21, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

it's hard to even start the rock paper scissor game when 3 slots on every team is the same -- 2 monks and a paragon. Ok fine a low blow but whatever. Down with broken emanagement! Let the real monks emerge ppl!

Thom · Nov 21, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

In GvG people play 100-200 games a season. One expects to lose a certain amount of those games simply through bad luck or mismatches. Plenty of sports with long seasons play out this way: no one expects to win them all, you're just playing for a good average.

Some builds involve a higher level of risk/reward than others. There are safe skill choices like glimmering light and adreniline spikes which will put you in a position to win regardless of the opponents build. There are risky skill choices like NR/Tran, Vocal minority which can provide a significant advantage or could be a complete waste of a character's secondary. When you choose a risky build, you are accepting the costs of specialization and lack of flexiblity. Those who play those types of builds do so by choice: if a build splits poorly it was a choice made for some other advantage.

In some ways this makes guild wars more like poker than like chess. The only way to be totally safe from losing is not to play. Good poker players put themselves in a position to win and mold whatever luck they have to their skill. Likewise, even in a disadvantaged position the better team can close the gap. Poor teams fail to capitalize even when they have a huge advantage. Regardless of your build and the oppoents build, win or loss, there is always room for improvement. Very rarely is it impossible to take a team to VoD, and odd things are known to happen in VoD. I personally value quality of play over wins and losses, sometimes a close loss while playing at a disadvantage is more heartening than an ugly win. Some people will interpret my poker analogy as saying that guild wars is luck over skill. I would say that humans are very good at making decisions over uncertainty and such decision making is more real than deterministic games in a sterile environment.

Edit: I think everyone realizes that energizing finale is beyond broken and should be nerfed at the earliest possible time.